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Author Topic: 97 montara tioga  (Read 391 times)

Wolfcreek

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97 montara tioga
« on: August 13, 2019, 08:08:42 PM »
Completly new to motorhomes and just bought a nice little 22' 1997 montara tioga. The only issue with it is the generator was pulled, so no onboard generator. I didn't see this as a problem since I have a whisper quiet portable gen I can use if needed.

This is what I have run into though and hoping I'll find other owners with the same rv to answer this. The ac, fan and water pump seem to only run off the battery bank. When the batteries are dead they won't kick on. The charger does work I just haven't left it to completly charge them yet. It seems odd to me though that they don't run off shore power when plugged in. Is this how they were designed?
« Last Edit: August 13, 2019, 08:10:54 PM by Wolfcreek »

Larry N.

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #1 on: August 13, 2019, 08:37:18 PM »
Quote
The ac, fan and water pump seem to only run off the battery bank.
If the "ac" you mention is for air conditioning, then it definitely won't run from batteries. It runs from the 120V AC house-style power, that is, shore power. The fan could be 12V DC or 120V AC, depending on what it's a fan for. The water pump should run off batteries, since it's 12V DC.

So you may have a bad converter, then, if you don't get DC things running. Note that the converter should also charge your house batteries.  How about the lights? Do they work? Generally those are 12V DC in most rigs.
Larry and Mary Ann N.
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Rene T

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #2 on: August 13, 2019, 08:53:48 PM »
If the "ac" you mention is for air conditioning, then it definitely won't run from batteries. It runs from the 120V AC house-style power, that is, shore power. The fan could be 12V DC or 120V AC, depending on what it's a fan for.

If you have a wall thermostat for the AC and furnace, it may need 12 Volt DC to operate.
Rene, Lucille & co-pilot Buddy
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Alfa38User

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #3 on: August 14, 2019, 07:39:59 AM »
Welcome!!


The fact that the generator is missing indicates to me that the wiring needed may have been modified by a previous owner at one point to, perhaps, run the AC off an inverter. This is NEVER the case in a factory installation, it normally runs off either shore power or the generator, so a close look into those aspects may be required. Dead house batteries will also kill any wall thermostat should one be required to control the AC.

Perhaps another thing to consider is how the former generator was arranged to connect to the RV wiring. Many use an Automatic Transfer Switch but others may have to plug in to a special inlet using the shore cord (a manual ATS) so using an external generator may require some forethought when connecting it..
« Last Edit: August 14, 2019, 07:49:47 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #4 on: August 14, 2019, 07:57:13 AM »
First, the Tioga never had a factory inverter, so any such wiring would be an add-on.   Doubtful that the a/c was ever successfully run off the inverter, though maybe somebody tried.  There simply isn't room in a Tioga for enough batteries to run it for more than a few seconds.  We need Wolfcreek to clarify what he meant about a/c and battery.


One possibility is that his Tioga has a wall thermostat for the a/c. If so, the thermostat is 12v powered and the a/c won't run unless the thermostat gets its 12v.  12v comes from either battery or the 12v converter/charger.  When plugged to shore power, the converter/charger should meet all 12v needs regardless of battery state.  If that isn't happening, then the most likely explanation is that the converter/charger is NOT working.

What about lighting? That's all 12v. Does it work both with and without shore power?


Gary
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Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #5 on: August 14, 2019, 10:51:25 AM »
Thank you for the help with this. By ac I'm referring to the roof air-conditioning. The RV does have a wall thermostat. Checked the fuse in the wall thermostat and the one in the fuse panel. All are good. Here's what happened. Got the RV home and tried things out by plugging in the RV after looking over to make sure there was no loose wires left carelessly by who ever pulled the generator. The roof ac didn't come on with first attempt so continued on to check everything else. All interior lights, microwave and fridge work. Outside radio, water pump and tank test level indicators didn't. After leaving the RV plugged in for a while I retested what didn't work. Second test water pump, outside stereo, test tank level indicators, roof ac and fan controlled by the same wall thermostat all worked.roof ac was even blowing cold air. Then lost everything again. No fan, roof ac, water pump, outside radio all dead and haven't been able to get them back even with leaving the RV plugged in for a while with nothing on. Checked all the fuses again and are good. Checked the battery bank and they were flat dead. I've swapped the batteries out with others I have here and waiting to see if the charge comes up on them. Please note that since I just got this rv home I don't have a 30amp outlet for it yet. So currently it's plugged in to a regular 15amp with an adapter plug. Could it just be this (under powered)?

Gizmo100

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #6 on: August 14, 2019, 11:21:41 AM »
The 15 amp plug will work to get your converter working in order to charge the batteries. I wouldn't recommend trying to run the A/C off the 15 amp plug.

Look into installing a 120 volt - 30 amp - RV plug. It's a lot safer.
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Rene T

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #7 on: August 14, 2019, 01:14:29 PM »
Sounds like a battery issue to me.
I would also check the house circuit breaker for the outlet you're plugged into. A 15 Amp probably will not run the Air Cond. and you may have tripped the house breaker.
Rene, Lucille & co-pilot Buddy
AKA  Pep N Mem
2011 Chevy Duramax 2500 HD 4X4
2011 Montana High Country 343RL
From the Granite State of NH
& Florida Snowbird in Lakeland FL

Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #8 on: August 14, 2019, 06:00:51 PM »
The house breaker did not trip. It's looking like I may have a converter issue but I'm not sure how you verify this. I've reviewed several posts about testing voltage at different locations. Not all posts say the same thing.

What I have while plugged in is about 4.3 volts at the 12v / 30a breaker terminal block (same on both sides) found in the battery storage area beside the emergency start solenoid / 4.3v when reading the "c" and "d" terminals on the converters fuse panel / 19V on each one of the 12v blade fuses #1-6 / 4.3v  on each of the last three blade fuses.

Rene T

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #9 on: August 14, 2019, 06:08:27 PM »
Have you found the cables which connect to the battery?  If you did, what you need to do is plug into shore power then measure the voltage at the end of those 2 battery cables. You should be getting at least 13.5 volts.  That will tell you if your converter is working.
Rene, Lucille & co-pilot Buddy
AKA  Pep N Mem
2011 Chevy Duramax 2500 HD 4X4
2011 Montana High Country 343RL
From the Granite State of NH
& Florida Snowbird in Lakeland FL

Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #10 on: August 14, 2019, 07:44:06 PM »
Going to try and attach a pic here. I disconnected the RV house battery completly and plugged the RV in. Tested cables that would connect to the battery and zero volts. Followed the battery positive side back to the solenoid shown in pic. Tested lower terminal in pic ( would be the side that has the lead which connects to the RV house battery) with negative cable for battery, zero. Tested upper terminal with negative cable for battery, 13v. Tested both sides of the terminal block seen just below the solenoid, zero on both.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #11 on: August 14, 2019, 09:38:55 PM »
Is that an isolator diode block?  They can simply fail and need to be replaced.
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Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2019, 02:23:45 AM »
In another post I found here it was referred to as a 12v 30a breaker. Some were self reseting others manual reset button. This one does have a bar sticking out on one end that I could psst in but made no difference. I'm assuming though the problem is before this since there's no voltage on either side of it. Even if it's bad there should be voltage to it correct?

Alfa38User

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2019, 07:33:51 AM »
Those battery or connection spots look to be  in pretty rough shape. A good cleaning after removing each one and reconnecting them may help, especially the top one marked 13V and 0 volts. It would not hurt to find and clean up the ground connection at the chassis from the battery as well.

If your 120V extension cord is connected to an outside outlet in the home, it will likely be a GFP protected outlet. It can blow quite easily and need resetting too despite the supplying circuit breaker being good. You will also have a GFP outlet in the RV itself that feeds any outlets on the bathroom and Kitchen counters, and the outside (patio ) and  that one should be checked as well. (There may be several other outlets daisy chained to it also, the fridge is sometimes one, depending on how the manufacturer wired your unit.)

Quote
I'm assuming though the problem is before this since there's no voltage on either side of it. Even if it's bad there should be voltage to it correct?   
No, not if it part of the voltage feed  problem.
« Last Edit: August 15, 2019, 10:00:06 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #14 on: August 15, 2019, 09:25:31 AM »
The photo is actually too close up to guess what the purpose of that block is, but it seems there are too many wire connections for a simple breaker.

Where does the wire with the +13v come from?  And the 0V wires go to?  It appears there are 4 wires at the terminal labeled "To RV Battery". Do all of them go there?

I don't think we can guess what "should be" until we know what the purpose of those  several wire connections may be. Meanwhile, those connections are all in poor condition and that alone could be part or all of the problem.
Gary
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Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #15 on: August 16, 2019, 08:56:43 AM »
I certainly appreciate the help sorting this issue out. I'm not sure if I'm just missing something though or if my original question has been lost with all the replies. Several responses have suggested I check my house breaker or see if there's a gfi circuit that tripped. Suggesting that I have no power at all to the RV when plugged in. This is not the case. Everything that would run on 120v ac runs. Lights and roof fans all work through the converter too. What isn't working is : the 12v water pump, the 12v wall thermostat to call on the ac and fan and the 12v outside radio. I've confirmed that I have no power at all going to my battery bank.

To answer the lats reply I believe the one cable that I do have 13v on comes from the front chassis. It's hooked up to the solenoid that would activate the emergency start to the vehicle. The other side of the solinoid is dead and is the side that is hooked up to the battery bank for the RV. That does confuse me since I'd think the battery side of the solinoid would be live and emergency start side dead until the solinoid is activated by the emergency start with on the driver's panel. Is it possible someone had unknowingly reversed the cables on this solinoid? I don't know what all the other wires are for that are hooked up in this area of the pic. Tracing them they lead into a covered harness that would have to be striped open to follow.

Alfa38User

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #16 on: August 16, 2019, 09:03:59 AM »
I think if the emergency side should be live too IF you had the house battery in place and no 12V house feed problem. (With the solenoid released (not operated) the two systems are isolated from each other). The solenoid simply connects the two systems together when the solenoid is activated by the switch in the RV (and possibly when the ignition is on and the engine running, thus permitting the engine alternator to charge the house batteries).

I think I would double check the 12V fuse(s) on the output of the converter that protect it from connecting the house batteries in reverse by accident. When blown, the converter appears to have failed. On a stand alone converter, they are usually on the converter itself, on one that is part and parcel of the distribution panel, they should be right there on that panel among the circuit breakers and other fuses. Remember, looks don't count when checking fuses (or circuit breakers)!!


A reverse in the wiring in this case would be a very long shot, it has been there for years and (presumably) worked well in the past
« Last Edit: August 16, 2019, 09:27:36 AM by Alfa38User »
Stu
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Snowbird, Naples Florida
Alfa Gold 38 (2000) 5ver (parked!)

"Of course I talk to myself, sometimes I need expert advise!!!"

Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #17 on: August 16, 2019, 05:43:11 PM »
Alpha38User thank you for this reply. It would be great if there is a blown fuse on the charger. I haven't found a fuse for this yet. Apparently the magnetek 7300 has the reverse protection fuses on the main fuse board. Mine is the magnetek 6300 and from what I found they did not have this protection.

With all the great feedback I've gotten here I believe I have figured this out. My wall thermostat, water pump and outside radio receive power in two ways (by battery bank or from the charge output when plugged in). Since I have no voltage at the charge output these components are not able to get power when plugged in. Also explains why my house batteries wouldn't come up in voltage. So the components couldn't draw power from the house batteries either. I took the batteries in to have them charged and that has everything functioning.

So the conclusion is that unless it's just a fuse blown on the charge output the charger is faulty. Something to note here is that the water pump and wall thermostat doesn't run through a converter circuit like the lights do if I'm correct in my conclusion. They run directly off the charge output when plugged in or directly off the house batteries and need the charge output working to maintain power supply.

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #18 on: August 17, 2019, 10:27:56 AM »
The Magnetek 6300 is a bit strange by modern standards, actually switching from battery mode to converter mode, plus it has both filter and unfiltered outputs.  It's also ancient charger tech and highly prone to overcharging even though its actual charge capacity is limited and quite slow.  I usually recommend replacing it even if it works - your battery(s) will thank you for it!

To the best of my knowledge there are no fuses or breakers inside a 63xx - the only ones are what you see on the front panel.  No reverse polarity protection either.
« Last Edit: August 17, 2019, 10:30:25 AM by Gary RV_Wizard »
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Wolfcreek

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Re: 97 montara tioga
« Reply #19 on: Today at 01:37:44 AM »
It seems the conclusion that the charger portion of the controller was done is right. While routing a cable today to install a backup camera I found a 6amp charger hidden away under the fridge. The previous owner installed it there and ran the power cord up to the access hatch to the fridge, where there's a plug in receptacle. The power cord for the charger wasn't plugged in.

So we are going to do the upgrade kit for the 6300 magnetek and leave this external charger where it is (unplugged) as a backup option if we run into another charge failure in the future.

Thank you everyone for the help.