rvupgradestore.com Composet Products Fridge Defend
RV Life Magazine RV Park Reviews RV Trip Wizard

Author Topic: Why the V10?  (Read 1254 times)

Ssteve

  • ---
  • Posts: 5
Why the V10?
« on: November 07, 2019, 07:56:04 PM »
Looking at budget friendly class C motor homes and the only thing available is the fordís with the v10 gas engine. I am wondering why you donít see similar class c motor homes with basic powerstroke, Cummins and dramas engines?

Isaac-1

  • ---
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #1 on: November 07, 2019, 08:03:35 PM »
They are out there, but they are rare, all RV manufacturers build to a price point, usually as cheap as they can get away with, maximizing the BLING factor and cutting every corner they can on the out of site out of mind stuff, like insulation, cabinetwork, paint, engine, etc.   So given that diesel engines would add at least $10,000 to the price tag, and most consumers fear diesel more than they want it, there is little incentive to offer them.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Larry N.

  • ---
  • Posts: 6295
  • Westminster, CO
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #2 on: November 07, 2019, 08:07:27 PM »
Probably because Ford is the only van maker who provides bare chassis rigs for building class C motorhomes. A number of years back Workhorse (uses a Chevy engine) and before that Chevy made them. Back in the early '70s I had a class C on a Dodge chassis. So it's a matter of what is available to the RV maker.

Freightliner and many others provide modified diesel truck front end chassis for the Super C (much bigger and heavier) rigs, but not generally for a gasoline powered rig.
Larry and Mary Ann N.
2016 Newmar Ventana 3709 -ISB6.7 XT 360HP
2015 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited toad
Formerly: Trailmanor 2720SL, Bounder, Beaver
  de N8GGG

Isaac-1

  • ---
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #3 on: November 07, 2019, 08:13:48 PM »
Larry there are still some companies that offer RV's on the Chevy van chassis, I saw a couple of last years local RV show.  Though Ford does seem to dominate the market.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Ssteve

  • ---
  • Posts: 5
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #4 on: November 07, 2019, 08:20:55 PM »
They are out there, but they are rare, all RV manufacturers build to a price point, usually as cheap as they can get away with, maximizing the BLING factor and cutting every corner they can on the out of site out of mind stuff, like insulation, cabinetwork, paint, engine, etc.   So given that diesel engines would add at least $10,000 to the price tag, and most consumers fear diesel more than they want it, there is little incentive to offer them.

Thatís crazy to me considering how garbage v10ís are. Particularly compared to a modern Diesel engine.

Isaac-1

  • ---
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2019, 08:28:19 PM »
One thing you need to remember is that most motorhomes average only about 6,000 miles per year of use, and many get well less than that, ie expect 50,000 - 60,000 miles on most 10 year old motorhome.  With that sort of mileage a gas engine with a 150,000 - 200,000 mile service life will likely outlast the life of of the rest of the RV, which is rarely over about 20-25 years depending on level of care and maintenance.

p.s. to reinforce this, a quick search of RV trader ads, shows that out of the first 25 class C's listed as 2008 models, 14 show between 50,000 - 65,000 miles, 4 show under 50,000 with the lowest being 27,000, and only 2 both ex-cruise america rental units show over 150,000 miles.  The rest tended to be in the 70,000 mile ballpark.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2019, 08:37:08 PM by Isaac-1 »
2002 Safari Trek 2830

KandT

  • ---
  • Posts: 1321
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #6 on: November 07, 2019, 08:31:45 PM »
Thatís crazy to me considering how garbage v10ís are. Particularly compared to a modern Diesel engine.

"Garbage" is a pretty strong word for an engine that has been pretty much bulletproof for the last 15 years.  Once they ironed out a couple issues in the late 1990's and early 2000's they have been good to go.  They power many, many class "A's" as well.  By many, I mean hundreds of thousands of them.

Most class "C's" push their weight limit as it is.  Diesels weigh more so you would lose payload or go over your weight limit.  Why not make the chassis bigger??  They do that already.  They are called "Super C's" and can be found but cost significantly more. 

So in short asking why they put "garbage" engines in when there are better engines available is like asking why would they put vinyl flooring in whenever Italian Marble is clearly a better choice.  Why do people buy a Chevy whenever Bugatti clearly makes a fine automobile?
2019 Ford F250 6.7 Deisel Crew Cab
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD - SOLD
American Car Dolly - SOLD
2009 Accord Toad - SOLD
Figuring out my next purchase.

Ssteve

  • ---
  • Posts: 5
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #7 on: November 07, 2019, 08:41:14 PM »
The gross weight argument is what makes most sense to me so thank you for that. Iíve driven several v10 powered vehicles including class c motor homes and have always been way underwhelmed.

Isaac-1

  • ---
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #8 on: November 07, 2019, 08:48:08 PM »
Out of curiosity what is it that you don't like about them?  I don't have any strong opinion one way or the other as my coach has an 8.1L Chevy Vortec, my old F250 pickup has a 7.3 Diesel, and my car has a 6.1L Hemi.

I did help an old friend drive an E350 cab 5.4L V8  u-haul truck fully loaded down (probably overloaded) from Louisiana to Montana a few years ago, and it did ok, though a bit slow going up hills, which I suspect is similar to a typical class C.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Ssteve

  • ---
  • Posts: 5
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #9 on: November 07, 2019, 09:18:33 PM »
Exactly that. They basically struggle to get out of their own way when they are loaded down. That and you have to rev them out to get them going anywhere. If you had a newer diesel motor in one they would perform great regardless of the weight, even if it was. Destined commercial version.

NY_Dutch

  • ---
  • Posts: 5422
  • Home is where our wheels are!
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #10 on: November 07, 2019, 09:34:28 PM »
As said, it's market driven... Put two otherwise identical motorhomes on a sales lot, one with a gas V10 and the other with a diesel and the higher price tag that goes with it and the gas unit will outsell the diesel every time.
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

Ssteve

  • ---
  • Posts: 5
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #11 on: November 07, 2019, 09:38:08 PM »
As said, it's market driven... Put two otherwise identical motorhomes on a sales lot, one with a gas V10 and the other with a diesel and the higher price tag that goes with it and the gas unit will outsell the diesel every time.

Copy that. Unfortunate but understandable. Guess I will stick with my travel trailer and truck for now.

Wish I could get rd of my trailer and get a class c and pull a small trailer with a side by side.

Isaac-1

  • ---
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #12 on: November 07, 2019, 09:44:37 PM »
If you want a diesel powered class C, buy a diesel powered class C, they are out there, but they are rare. and there will be a price premium.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

KandT

  • ---
  • Posts: 1321
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #13 on: November 07, 2019, 10:12:32 PM »
Exactly that. They basically struggle to get out of their own way when they are loaded down. That and you have to rev them out to get them going anywhere. If you had a newer diesel motor in one they would perform great regardless of the weight, even if it was. Destined commercial version.

of course the generator uses the same fuel tank as the RV  so you are either going with a heavier diesel generator with a large price premium or a separate gas tank for the generator. 

When I was in Wyoming at maybe 6000 feet I had my class C floored on the flat and we were going into a headwind.  We were towing an accord and we couldn't keep the speed limit.  BUT if the only option was a diesel setup we wouldn't have been able to afford that trip.  I'll take the v10 over no trip all day long.

If you want a diesel though - Go buy one.  Search RV trader for class C diesels.  They will come on a heavy chassis and you can tow your side by side.
2019 Ford F250 6.7 Deisel Crew Cab
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD - SOLD
American Car Dolly - SOLD
2009 Accord Toad - SOLD
Figuring out my next purchase.

Lou Schneider

  • Global Moderator
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 9713
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #14 on: November 07, 2019, 10:40:04 PM »
of course the generator uses the same fuel tank as the RV  so you are either going with a heavier diesel generator with a large price premium or a separate gas tank for the generator. 

Usually the generator will be propane powered since there's already a propane tank onboard.

Isaac-1

  • ---
  • Posts: 2477
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #15 on: November 07, 2019, 10:41:07 PM »
Actually many smaller diesel motorhomes come standard with propane generators, as diesel generators are not only heavier, but also more expensive.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

FL-Joe

  • ---
  • Posts: 39
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #16 on: November 07, 2019, 11:00:10 PM »
Prior to getting our current rig we had a 37' Class A with the V-10.  I never had an issue with the Ford V-10.  I could change the oil myself in about 25 minutes for about $35.00.  Now my annual service costs over $700.
Full Time Traveling This Great Country!
Newmar Ventana 4369
Toad:  enclosed (Mini Cooper & Harley TG)
U.S. Army VN 71-72 (64B20)

Utclmjmpr

  • ---
  • Posts: 4129
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #17 on: November 08, 2019, 02:28:43 PM »

 So what prevents you from "doing it yourself" with the diesel.???. >>>Dan
Vary rare American Tradition 38TT/330 turbo Cummins
Last year Jeep liberty 4 down
72 VW Baja 4 down
Cedar City, Utah
USAF vet. 59-63
FMCA F312919
The difference between intelligence & stupidity is: intelligence has it's limits
      Albert Einstein.

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 68799
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #18 on: November 08, 2019, 04:30:08 PM »
First of all, gas engines do fine powering Class C motorhomes. Since GM dropped their big block V8 (the 8.1L) in favor of a 6.0L, there haven't been a lot of gas engine options for Class C's. However, some manufacturers, e.g. Coachmen Freelander, offer C's on a Chevy 4500 van chassis.

There are diesel-powered C's available. Most RV builders offer C's on the Sprinter diesel chassis and there are several using the Ram Promaster diesel as well. Larger C's, e.g. the Jayco Seneca, are built on Freightliner medium truck diesel chassis with Cummins engines and the Chevy Duramax diesel chassis.
https://www.colonialrv.com/blog/ram-promaster-chassis-enters-rv-world/
« Last Edit: November 08, 2019, 04:35:52 PM by Gary RV_Wizard »
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

SeilerBird

  • ---
  • Posts: 14525
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #19 on: November 08, 2019, 04:45:43 PM »
Exactly that. They basically struggle to get out of their own way when they are loaded down. That and you have to rev them out to get them going anywhere. If you had a newer diesel motor in one they would perform great regardless of the weight, even if it was. Destined commercial version.
When they are loaded down they are likely way overweight. Class C motorhomes have very little CCC to begin with. Some are overweight when they leave the factory. You are asking the RV to do something it was not designed for. If you want to haul a lot of weight around then get the right tool for the right job.

NY_Dutch

  • ---
  • Posts: 5422
  • Home is where our wheels are!
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #20 on: November 08, 2019, 07:55:54 PM »
We run the 4.5% grade 6 mile long stretch of I-77 from NC to VA known as "Fancy Gap" regularly, and while our V10 powered 34' coach towing a 3500 lb toad can't hold the 65 MPH speed limit all the way up, even dropping down to 50-55 we still pass just about as many RV's and trucks as pass us. Our previous V8 powered coach would drop into the low 40's on that stretch. The newer versions of the V10 have a few more horses and added gearing, so I'd expect them to do a bit better with the same weight...
Dutch
2001 GBM Landau 34' Class A
F53 Chassis, Triton V10, TST TPMS
2011 Toyota RAV4 4WD/Remco pump
ReadyBrute Elite tow bar/Blue Ox base plate

KandT

  • ---
  • Posts: 1321
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #21 on: November 08, 2019, 10:17:04 PM »
I think in the end RV's are not cars or pickup trucks.  They aren't going to drive like them. I found the V10 to be overall quite capable. 

I think where it is a little misleading is when you hear V10 and you naturally think this is a large engine.  It really isn't a big engine but is designed to rev high.  It is very reliable but I wouldn't put it in a race car.  So if you are in a race across America in a class c rv the v10 probably isn't for you. 

The OP said he was looking for budget friendly class C's.  Those aren't going to have diesels for the price alone.
2019 Ford F250 6.7 Deisel Crew Cab
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD - SOLD
American Car Dolly - SOLD
2009 Accord Toad - SOLD
Figuring out my next purchase.

glen54737

  • ---
  • Posts: 1394
  • My camping buddy
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #22 on: November 09, 2019, 12:02:42 AM »
They put enough to get the job done and no more. An RV sits for the majority of it's life and the designs reflect that. 
2018 Thor Miramar 35.2
2015 F-350 CC short box 6.7l 3.55 axle
2015 Alpine 3510RE-sold

Glen,Nene
Mickey & Jayco (yorkies)

FL-Joe

  • ---
  • Posts: 39
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2019, 08:20:25 AM »
So what prevents you from "doing it yourself" with the diesel.???. >>>Dan

Freightliner/Cummins has a whole checklist of stuff that a regular annual PM involves.  It will take two techs over 3 hours to complete it correctly.  I could possibly handle some of it myself.  However, I would rather have iron clad documentation all of it was done by someone certified to do it so if I need my factory warranty for anything there would never be a question about the proper service.

My Thor Challenger was out of factory warranty and an oil change was simple.
Full Time Traveling This Great Country!
Newmar Ventana 4369
Toad:  enclosed (Mini Cooper & Harley TG)
U.S. Army VN 71-72 (64B20)

Utclmjmpr

  • ---
  • Posts: 4129
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2019, 12:56:38 PM »

 My "Iron clad documentation that it was done correctly " and documented in my logs is when I do it to my satisfaction...
  >>>Dan 33 year A/P IA >>>
Vary rare American Tradition 38TT/330 turbo Cummins
Last year Jeep liberty 4 down
72 VW Baja 4 down
Cedar City, Utah
USAF vet. 59-63
FMCA F312919
The difference between intelligence & stupidity is: intelligence has it's limits
      Albert Einstein.

KandT

  • ---
  • Posts: 1321
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2019, 01:52:09 PM »
For as much as everybody is concerned about warranties, I almost never pay any attention to them.  I take pretty good care of things and drive fairly easy.  Do that and it is not worth my time and energy to worry about what might happen.

Never bought an extended warranty for anything in my life. 
2019 Ford F250 6.7 Deisel Crew Cab
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD - SOLD
American Car Dolly - SOLD
2009 Accord Toad - SOLD
Figuring out my next purchase.

Dan23

  • ---
  • Posts: 533
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #26 on: November 11, 2019, 06:58:14 AM »
  >>>Dan

What is that? I've found it confusing.
1998 Winnebago Brave 30'
2009 Kawasaki KLR
2016 VW GLI

Larry N.

  • ---
  • Posts: 6295
  • Westminster, CO
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #27 on: November 11, 2019, 10:55:38 AM »
If you're referring to his statement (your post wasn't clear about that): Dan 33 year A/P IA
then A/P is Airframe & Powerplant mechanic - IA is the addition of Inspection Authorization.

Thus a highly trained and well experienced aviation maintenance guy, to put it mildly.
Larry and Mary Ann N.
2016 Newmar Ventana 3709 -ISB6.7 XT 360HP
2015 Wrangler Sahara Unlimited toad
Formerly: Trailmanor 2720SL, Bounder, Beaver
  de N8GGG

Utclmjmpr

  • ---
  • Posts: 4129
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #28 on: November 11, 2019, 12:28:26 PM »
 Thanks Larry,, also in that time period,, Director of maintenance (DOM) for two airlines (FAR135) and two helicopter companies..>>>Dan
 Needless to say,, I like doing my own work for reasons listed above.>>>D
« Last Edit: November 11, 2019, 12:45:37 PM by Utclmjmpr »
Vary rare American Tradition 38TT/330 turbo Cummins
Last year Jeep liberty 4 down
72 VW Baja 4 down
Cedar City, Utah
USAF vet. 59-63
FMCA F312919
The difference between intelligence & stupidity is: intelligence has it's limits
      Albert Einstein.

FL-Joe

  • ---
  • Posts: 39
Re: Why the V10?
« Reply #29 on: November 12, 2019, 09:50:29 AM »
My "Iron clad documentation that it was done correctly " and documented in my logs is when I do it to my satisfaction...
  >>>Dan 33 year A/P IA >>>

Glad that works for you.  However, I think I will just coast along paying certified Freightliner/Cummings techs do my maintenance until my factory warranty runs out.  I certainly do not have the thousands of dollars it would take to replace my engine/tranny if they denied a claim because I tried to save a few bucks. 

Like I said in my first post, on my last coach with the V10 I changed oil and did much of the service myself but the factory warranty was expired.
Full Time Traveling This Great Country!
Newmar Ventana 4369
Toad:  enclosed (Mini Cooper & Harley TG)
U.S. Army VN 71-72 (64B20)