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Boat Addict

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Let me begin by saying that with the help of my long time assistant for all things mechanical for boats, my wonderful wife , we have stopped the water leaks for now. Of course this was just one of the major problems. Of course there are other campers available , but I am not investing more money into something else right now that may also have many unknowns and more money to spend on someone else to do my bidding.  I am ready to hit the road upon mid May and want to know my product and have things ready and rigged.

So don't let me hear that I need to write letters and all that stuff. My time and money is invested in this one and for the time and additional money involved to deal with this thru any alternative process and all the levels of management , I am committed to more productive measures like actually fixing this crap. I will also attempt to help anyone experiencing simular problems with refining units too. I have built ocean going vessels without anything near what I have experienced in this camper for almost eight months. If I can reduce these issues and look deeper inside the particular camper in the construction area and make sure that its sound before hitting the road, I feel like I can tow the dang thing and go where I want to go in some form of confidence.

But these issues needs its own thread, not that it will probably get any substantive reply . But a separate thread is needed from my original one addressing my on going issues with the camper and the horrible lack of response long before the virus problems showed up  and caused problems with the factory.  When you buy a product that's been built for as many years as this manufacturer has built over the road pleasure campers, you would think that in its first year a camper would only need to be spit polished and probably only a few trips to the dealer to correct minor alignment issues of doors or faulty electronics to be replaced.  Certainly you would hope that a consumer with legitimate and repeated problems you would get a more refined reply. The first issue was with the front cargo doors with warping and water filling up my cargo space and bedroom storage. I had to deal directly with the door manufacturer on that problem after exhausting  my avenues with the dealer and factory service department. I should have known right then what I was about to experience as my floor began to create its own hump in it. 

Anyway I started out by flooding the slide top with a water hose and got plenty of water inside. But I never got water in the top of the slide, only at the bottom. . So I said, hum lets start at the bottom on the hill  and started taping the actual gasket seal of the slide with duct tape and sprayed water targeting in that area. I got water inside. SO I wiped the flange down and taped the inside of the flange with duct tape and tried again. It leaked.

So I wiped the area down and again expanded the area taped and tried again. I finally stopped water from running inside.  I looked deeper and saw that little to no caulking was in the seam and also removed the corner cover and found out that the 45 degree joint of the two flange parts has a large gap in the area, both ends and water was tracking along the large gaps of the flange seam against the main slide side and running to the 45 degree joint and then following the motor sprocket track inside, also along the bottom corner trim and slide bottom to the floor.

I had to load up the seams with huge amounts of silicone , which is the caulk of choice on these units and let it dry. I then sprayed everything down and for now its stopped leaking. Of course I have not towed it on the road . SO I don't yet have faith that everything is cured. But the fix looks like crap with the huge amount of caulk along the entire flange on the slide. 

According to the work order, this camper was water tested and things were just fine.  Of course I learned that when the camper arrived at the factory a lot of issues with door jams swollen and doors would not open and water damage on the wood up forward existed and appeared to have happened after it left here. So this camper has been experiencing on going problems but nothing was addressed at the factory, even though their work order showed it listed on it.


 

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As I recall, you have a Winnie towable (trailer), right? [You could add the year/make/model to your signature line to avoid this repetitive question].  I'm wondering if the standards of the towable division are a lot different than the motorized group. Winnie bought up a couple trailer companies to form a towable division and maybe the culture is different.  That's not an excuse; just wondering out loud why you are getting treated so poorly by a company that has an otherwise decent reputation for customer support.
 
Gary RV_Wizard said:
As I recall, you have a Winnie towable (trailer), right? [You could add the year/make/model to your signature line to avoid this repetitive question].  I'm wondering if the standards of the towable division are a lot different than the motorized group. Winnie bought up a couple trailer companies to form a towable division and maybe the culture is different.  That's not an excuse; just wondering out loud why you are getting treated so poorly by a company that has an otherwise decent reputation for customer support.

I don't know. Everything was noted, a work order was prepared at the service department. And yet a weak response  to the two main issues  was addressed.  I could have washed my feet with the water that ended up inside last weekend.  I mopped before I attempted to soak up the rest of it. Its a 2018 2401 RG. I will add that to it for now.

The latest promise when it returned  weeks ago was to address the hump area again  in several weeks in the future and I should try to let the tongue jack all the way down so that the camper would hopefully allow the water to run off quickly from the roof and sides for now. I was shaking my head after that line of thinking. This could not wait, If I was not planning on leaving for out west late May I would go ahead and cut up the floor and see what is going on.  I cannot see it from the underside, with the underbelly cover and the tanks located in the slide area.

The frame does not appear to be bent , which would keep the floor in the hump position. So there is only one thing that is left, maybe wet plywood, outside of some fasteners that holds down the floor if the floor got pushed up and is holding the floor up from maybe gotten sideways. But this camper has only been on major highways and no primitive campgrounds. Of course both side walls has created the floor from the main frames to sag down, which also was not corrected. They only put two new sister outriggers on the road side right along to the original ones and did not address the drop at all.

So for now I will just deal with what I have .
 
We have a small Winnabego TT and had problems with windows leaking from the day we purchased it. It was the back and drivers side window in the bedroom. Our biggest problem was we live in Delaware but purchased it in Michigan. No local dealer would work on the trailer even though or maybe because it was under warranty. I finally found a dealer 50 miles away that would work on it. He took one window out and recaulked. He said that would be all the work he would do because Winnabego would not pay for billable hours. They paid him for like 45 minutes of work. We took it to the factory and they took the back window out and recaulked. Still leaked. The side window started leaking again. I called Winnabego and they said they would send a new side window but we have to agree to not put in anymore warranty claims.  My son in law caulked the poop out of the side window and it finally quit leaking. My son and I removed the rear window and removed all the old caulk. We found the track the window sits in was bent. We fixed that as best we could and installed the window with new caulk. It seems the leaks have ceased. I would tell anyone purchasing a new or used RV that it is buyer beware. And you better be able to troubleshoot and fix most problems that arise.
 
Oldgator73 said:
... He said that would be all the work he would do because Winnabego would not pay for billable hours. They paid him for like 45 minutes of work. ...
Several years ago I had a chat with my friend at the Forest City factory and we were discussing this very issue. He didn't understand the reticence of dealers to perform warranty service since Winnebago paid the dealer's going labor rate. I suspect a major point of contention is the time allotted to do a specific repair - dealers have an incentive to pad the time for non-warranty repairs and don't like being told how long it takes factory service to perform the same repair. Their money maker is non-warranty service.

I would not look for Winnebago or any dealer to do much if anything in the way of any goodwill repairs, the RV industry is hurting and hurting big time. Any dealer or manufacturer that is highly leveraged could go bankrupt like Fleetwood, Country Coach, Western RV (the Alpine) etc did back in the 2007-8 rout. Winnebago had a very difficult time during that period but hung on thanks in part having little debt to service. It's a completely different situation for them now with new (~3 or 4 years) executive leadership and quite a bit of debt they took on to buy Grand Design. However I do wish them well and hope things will get back to normal as soon as possible before long term damage happens.
 
I took our trailer to an independent RV tech . He was actually a mobile tech but during off season he was in his shop. He told me he would not do any warranty work. Reason being it was so hard to get reimbursed from the companies. He said it would take up to 18 months to get paid and the payment was less than what was submitted. If the RV manufactures are so concerned about dealers and technicians padding invoices, maybe they should put out a better product.
 
John Canfield said:
Several years ago I had a chat with my friend at the Forest City factory and we were discussing this very issue. He didn't understand the reticence of dealers to perform warranty service since Winnebago paid the dealer's going labor rate. I suspect a major point of contention is the time allotted to do a specific repair - dealers have an incentive to pad the time for non-warranty repairs and don't like being told how long it takes factory service to perform the same repair. Their money maker is non-warranty service.

I would not look for Winnebago or any dealer to do much if anything in the way of any goodwill repairs, the RV industry is hurting and hurting big time. Any dealer or manufacturer that is highly leveraged could go bankrupt like Fleetwood, Country Coach, Western RV (the Alpine) etc did back in the 2007-8 rout. Winnebago had a very difficult time during that period but hung on thanks in part having little debt to service. It's a completely different situation for them now with new (~3 or 4 years) executive leadership and quite a bit of debt they took on to buy Grand Design. However I do wish them well and hope things will get back to normal as soon as possible before long term damage happens.

Well this issue is not about some dealer in some foreign lands. But I agree, and the reason I have personally dug deeper into these issues at this point in time. But they surely had plenty of opportunities to correct these major issues long before the downturn. So this is what has frustrated me. And they even spent thousands of dollars with a carrier to tow this camper back to the factory. I bet they have an identical camper sitting on their lot in house that they could have exchanged for this one while it was sitting in house. It was apparent that this camper had major issues, one that is not easily fixed with the floor and everything built on top of it.

But for two tubes of caulking and some common sense and some time, which their people were already there working in the service department they could have at minimum  sorted out the major leak issues. The leak was obvious since they fixed interior parts with stains and even a water line inside. Heck did not know that I had a boat camper. LOL

When I had the issues with the warped cargo doors back in the fall of 2019 and water was filling my cargo area and my bedroom floor, the best they came up with was to send  two metal splints after six weeks of hassle , 1/8" thick by approx. 12 inches long and said to put it on the edge of the doors with rivets in hopes that they would straighten the doors out. The factory service department may be abiding by the bean counters. But you either have a warranty or you don't .

I am planning on looking deeper into the floor issues next week with my ace assistant. We walk on a " swollen cyst" right down the middle of the floor in the couch and dinette area every single time we go inside. Should be an interesting venture..
 
While I realize the theme of this post is a bit off-tangent but I didn't want to start a new topic.

I was looking at WGO's financial results and revenue has been up for the first quarter, interestingly WGO also owns Chris-Craft boats - they are well invested in the leisure market. Then I found this 13D form as reported to the SEC which is required when an entity owns >= 5% of a public company:

Activist Holdings

Winnebago Industries (WGO)

Punch Card Capital lifted its holding in the maker of motor homes and recreational vehicles to 2,385,740 shares, including 994,190 purchased from March 10 to March 19 at prices ranging from $19.45 to $36.48. Punch Card responded to Winnebago?s recent press release regarding how it is meeting Covid-19 concerns with a March 24 letter addressed to the board. Punch Card wrote that regardless of the circumstances of this or any other downturn, the company had ?failed to heed warnings about leverage? and instead ?increased debt by $200 million over the past year,? knowing that ?the RV business is very cyclical.? Furthermore, Punch Card is concerned that Winnebago announced that its employees would be ?left with two weeks? pay,? but did not mention whether executives would face similar salary cuts. Punch Card strongly believes Winnebago executives should forgo their pay and that the board should immediately review all corporate spending. Punch Card also urged Winnebago to eliminate its dividend, as such changes are ?necessary to maintain a culture of fairness.?


Being so highly leveraged was my concern for WGO but it also begs the question why Punch Card Capital bought so many shares.
 
March 10 to March 19 at prices ranging from $19.45 to $36.48.

That was during the period of the huge downhill plunge for the Dow, bottoming out on March 23, 2020. You can best bet that they, along with similar investment groups  do not have the interest of the worker bees at heart.
 
Boat Addict said:
That was during the period of the huge downhill plunge for the Dow, bottoming out on March 23, 2020. You can best bet that they, along with similar investment groups  do not have the interest of the worker bees at heart.
That is exactly correct. These types of industrial investors and holding companies have one interest and one only - the Cap Rate. How much am I going to make off this investment (the basis of capitalism which I don't have an issue with.) Unfortunately good people down the food chain can get badly hurt. I just heard my very good friend at WGO in Forest City had his job "eliminated". He was a great asset to the business and a dedicated employee of probably 30 years. I've known him for about 15 years. I'm assuming he's laid off or retired or has another position in the company - hope the last conjecture is true. Anyway the 2Q and 3Q financial reports will tell the story of where this is headed for WGO.
 
It would be a shame if WGO crashed due to over-leveraging after its long history of conservative financial management. And took equally conservative Newmar with them. CEOs and marketing execs are as fallible as anyone else when the good times roll and they start to think it can never end.  The Venture Capitalists encourage that kind of thinking because expansionism nearly always makes money for them, even though the company ultimately fails. They always build in self-protection through first-priority during any liquidation of assets.
 
John Canfield said:
That is exactly correct. These types of industrial investors and holding companies have one interest and one only - the Cap Rate. How much am I going to make off this investment (the basis of capitalism which I don't have an issue with.) Unfortunately good people down the food chain can get badly hurt. I just heard my very good friend at WGO in Forest City had his job "eliminated". He was a great asset to the business and a dedicated employee of probably 30 years. I've known him for about 15 years. I'm assuming he's laid off or retired or has another position in the company - hope the last conjecture is true. Anyway the 2Q and 3Q financial reports will tell the story of where this is headed for WGO.

I watched a report on what happened to Sidney Nebraska when there was similar group disconnected from both corporations, Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops involved in the consolidation of Cabelas and Bass Pro Shops. The entire town was destroyed in the process.  I cannot imagine how some of those folks sleep at night after destroying thousands of peoples lives, even in the good times.

I am still attempting to get the tanks down from the underside, but it may be impossible to do without a total mess with the axles in the way. I still cannot tell if the insulation and floor is wet yet. Short of cutting into the floor covering that's the only way that I can view my main issue. It may be a slow creep to a bunch of mush, at the worse and need to remove all the upper parts inside so that I can address a full section if I can find the same flooring. If not I may need to figure out a contrasting alternative and make a break at my entrance door to the forward bedroom.
 
Bring it down here, we can tear it apart and rebuild it. You and the Mrs can camp out in our Horizon. I have a 1500 sq ft fully equipped shop for woodworking and metal working and plenty of time on my hands  :D.
 
Mark_K5LXP said:
Could you use a restoration moisture meter for that?  Would still need to poke some holes for the probe but not as invasive as removing the floor covering.

https://www.delmhorst.com/faqs/restoration

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

That's a good idea. But one of the reasons I am attempting to go the direction of pulling the tanks down, or at least inspect that area is that when it was at the factory reports was that they replaced the wet insulation that was soaking wet.  This came from the hundreds of gallons that got logged in the underbelly and finally found the way to burst out and emptied on the ground while I was in Florida with it.

But no one said they pulled the tanks and the insulation is on top of the tanks. So I have no idea how that happened. They only cut a small area out of the cover, and not back all the way to the main frames on both sides. The area of the underbelly that's cut is in the area of the axle and there is no way they had room to drop the tanks and change out the wet insulation.  So it may still be in there and if so mold is probably growing in the almost closed area. Of course that's not the best thing right now even though I still have just over three plus months of warranty, for what its worth.

But John with the two sides of floor sagging on the outsides of the main frame, I wonder if the side walls , and the slide will further drop , and maybe in the road  .  :eek: :eek: But thanks for the offer. I will find out one way or the other. If the floor plywood is dry, I may attempt to jack the sidewalls up gingerly and make my own outriggers and install them from the main frame out to the sides after removing the ones currently in place in the slide area.
 
Maybe you can get a structural diagram from Owner Relations? I know they do that for motorized units on request. While I'm fairly familiar with WGO Class A construction I have no idea about the towables.
 
I think my life long nature to dig into stuff and see what makes things works drives me to taking stuff apart to the core. I mean what is life  about without something to fix? 8)
 
I've long said you only own what you can fix, the rest is just rented.  You're just accelerating that process... :D

Who's idea was it to build houses (and RV's) out of wood anyway?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM
 
Mark_K5LXP said:
I've long said you only own what you can fix, the rest is just rented.  You're just accelerating that process... :D

Who's idea was it to build houses (and RV's) out of wood anyway?

Mark B.
Albuquerque, NM

I don't know who came up with building rolling houses out of wood. But I build boats from wood and can fix them while half blind and you will never know where the repair is.  That's actually the beauty of wood and a bit of new fangled putty and paint. Of course under building them is the real story here.  But now those flying tin cans with the flapping wings on them, well I will pass on that idea. When those things break, well it ain't pretty.
 
When we were in the Elkhart, IN area a few years ago, we toured the relatively small Travel Supreme factory for their motorized production. They built the house using wood stud walls which was a complete surprise to me. On the upside their side walls were much better insulated than the typical laminated one piece wall. They also had quite a bit of floor insulation.

I've been a hack woodworker since I was a little pup (built several dinghies) and just in the last 10 years I've really gotten into metalworking. The 'beauty' of working with metal is if you make a mistake, get the grinder out and start over  8) . Cut stock too short - weld on another piece.
 
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