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Author Topic: Issues found in inspection  (Read 1366 times)

dsplaisted

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Issues found in inspection
« on: July 09, 2020, 06:35:58 AM »
Hi folks,

We're planning to buy our first RV.  We found one that we liked and had it inspected by an NRVIA inspector.  The inspection found a number of issues (probably unsurprising for a 20 year old RV).  Since we're new to this, I'd very much appreciate feedback on some of those issues.

The RV is a 2000 Harney Coach Renegade Diesel Class A (37 feet).  The asking price was $31K.

Background info: We're a family of 4 with children ages 4 and 9.  I'm a software developer currently working from home due to the coronavirus pandemic.  We'd like to try going full-time or mostly full-time in the RV (probably not permanently, more like 3 months to a year) so I can work from the road while we visit different areas around the country, National Parks, etc.

Roof water damage
The roof appears to have water damage in two places: near the kitchen vent and the bathroom skylight.  The roof appears to have subsequently been sealed so there is likely not an active leak in these areas.

Replacing the roof would be quite expensive (probably close to $10K, we understand).  So our plan would be just to make sure it continues to be sealed, but otherwise not address the existing water damage.

Tires
The ad said "new" tires, but per the inspection they are certainly not new - the date on them indicates they are from the third to fifth week of 2011.  The seller claims the tires have low mileage on them, that he only put 5000 miles on them in the past three years since purchasing the RV from the previous owner who said they had low mileage on them.  He also claims that tires don't age much from the weather in this region (Seattle area) when they aren't in use.

The inspection report lists all the tires as in acceptable condition, with the exception of one which is listed as in Fair condition due to some cracking in the sidewall.

How urgent is it to replace the tires if they are "old" but apparently have not had too many miles and appear to be in OK condition?  I understand that replacing tires is rather expensive, ie $500+ per tire for six tires.

Batteries
The house batteries (4 6-volt batteries) do not seem to be in good shape.  The voltage of the batteries was measured at 11.3 volts (apparently even when charging).  The inverter panel indicated low voltage and a fault code after operating for a while. 

The seller has offered to replace the batteries as part of the sale.  I understand that wet cell batteries can be from around $100 to $400 each.  How could I evaluate whether the batteries the seller would put in are "good"?  If we were to replace the batteries ourselves, what types of batteries and what price range should we be looking for?

Windshield crack
The passenger side window is significantly cracked, though it is restricted to the curved portion of the glass on the side.  There is tape over the crack, and I think the current owner has been using it like that for the past 3 years that he's owned the RV.  I've attached a picture of the cracked windshield.

He provided a quote he got for $811 for the replacement glass pane.  With labor to install it, the price would probably be $1200 or more.

How urgent would it be to replace this windshield?

Resealing
Some seals were in fair condition and others were in poor condition.  The inspector recommended that the entire RV should probably be resealed.  An RV repair shop gave me a rough estimate of $2000 for parts and labor for a full resealing.

The seller suggested it could be a lot cheaper if I were to look for a handy man on craigslist to do the work.  Iím pretty skeptical that would be a good idea.  Thoughts?

Since the Seattle area is fairly expensive, and the RV is mobile, Iím wondering if it would make sense to look for an area of the country where the cost of living is lower in order to have the repair work done.  Would that make sense?  Have other RV owners from areas with a relatively high cost of living tried this?

Fluid analysis
The engine is a Caterpillar diesel rear engine with 78,500 miles on it.  The inspection included taking fluid samples from the engine (and generator) and sending them off to a lab for analysis.

However, it will take up to 7 business days to get the results back.  Everything in the engine looked good (or "acceptable" in the inspection report terminology), and I understand that diesel engines generally last a long time.  How likely is it that the fluid analysis results would turn up any issues?  I know I probably shouldn't rush an RV purchase, but we are eager to get it if everything else works out.

Once again, thanks for any feedback you can provide!

SeilerBird

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #1 on: July 09, 2020, 06:52:18 AM »
By the time you end up fixing all of the problems you will have spent a fortune. You should keep looking and find a newer RV in much better shape. If one of those old tires has a blow out it would be radically more expensive. A blow out on a RV can do thousands of dollars in damages to the exterior and to water lines and electrical wires being damaged.

Rene T

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #2 on: July 09, 2020, 07:27:35 AM »
The tires need to be replaced as Tom said. Generally the life span is 6 to 8 years. NH has a vehicle inspection program and this MH would not pass because of the windshield.
The seller has told you a lot of information which is false so how much has he not told you about. I would walk and walk fast. He wants to get rid of it fast
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #3 on: July 09, 2020, 07:48:22 AM »
The roof is usually ok as long as it isn't currently leaking and no significant soft spots.  But what about interior damage from the previous leaks? That water was going somewhere inside, floor, walls, etc. 

The tires are 9.5 years old and most of the major tire makers agree that 10 years is the max useful life.   Using then for even one more trip is a large gamble because a blow-out has a good chance of causing body damage as well as the loss of the tire itself. Not to mention the hassle of getting stranded on the road somewhere.  I'd replace the tires immediately.


The batteries are worthless and need to be replaced. New 6v GC2 "golf car" batteries run $100-$125 each if you DIY. Brand isn't important - lead acid batteries are a commodity.   Costco or Sam's Club is a good source, but even Walmart is ok a long as they are GC2 6v golf car batteries.

The windshield is truly urgent only if the state where you will register it requires an undamaged windshield.  But would you really drive around with a tape covered, broken windshield? Surely you are going to fix it, so why postpone?

Engine oil analysis can only spot a few immediate issues; it's more useful when repeated annually and trends noted.  Still, I'd make the purchase contingent on an acceptable oil analysis report. If you decide to proceed, just give a deposit and wait for the report.

Frankly, this motorhome has all the signs of a lot of neglect and that makes it a poor bet. You would be much better off increasing your budget by $10k and avoid gambling on this one with its many obvious faults and probably more that are unknown.  Would you buy a house that had that many obvious and substantial flaws?   Probably not!   The Harney was a low budget model when new and it clearly has not been well-preserved.  I recommend you pass on this one.
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Larry N.

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #4 on: July 09, 2020, 07:58:06 AM »
Quote
The ad said "new" tires, but per the inspection they are certainly not new - the date on them indicates they are from the third to fifth week of 2011.
As said above, you'll want new tires. The 9 year old tires on there, regardless of appearance, are time bombs. When a tire blows on an RV you risk considerable damage to the rig. It can take out plumbing, wiring, and parts of other systems, potentially being several thousand dollars in repairs needed.

Quote
The house batteries (4 6-volt batteries) do not seem to be in good shape.  The voltage of the batteries was measured at 11.3 volts (apparently even when charging).

11.3V when charging would indicate to me that the charging system itself isn't working properly, if at all, and the batteries aren't getting charged. So considerable time and expense may be needed to make it right.

And you have several other things in there that are not right, plus it seems that you can't trust anything the seller said. So take the advice of Tom, Gary and Rene above and walk away. The inspection you had done has much more than paid for itself in saving you future expense and unhappiness (if you heed it), so get that glitter out of your eyes and look elsewhere. There are definitely some gems out there, but you have to sift through a lot of dogs to find them.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 08:00:00 AM by Larry N. »
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dsplaisted

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #5 on: July 09, 2020, 08:40:46 AM »
Hi folks,

Thanks for the advice so far.

The asking price was $31K.  Based off of the inspection results I figured I'd be spending $8.5K or so to fix the major issues, so I offered $20K.  The seller's current offer is $26K and replacing the batteries with new ones.

I'm sure that if I increase the budget to $40K or so I can find something that would be good for us without all these issues.  But if I'm able to pay closer to $20K for the RV itself, does the advice to look elsewhere still stand?

Gary says that the Harney was a low budget model.  One of the things that was attractive about this RV is that it has a Caterpillar diesel engine (and an Allison transmission).  I believed that the engine and transmission at least are high quality.  Is that the case or not?

Thanks,
Daniel

SeilerBird

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #6 on: July 09, 2020, 08:45:01 AM »
Quote
I'm sure that if I increase the budget to $40K or so I can find something that would be good for us without all these issues.  But if I'm able to pay closer to $20K for the RV itself, does the advice to look elsewhere still stand?
You can find a good deal at $20k but it will lake a few months of searching both online and in the real world. It is still a low budget model no matter what is under the hood.

Kevin Means

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #7 on: July 09, 2020, 10:24:29 AM »
The fluid analyses for the engine and tranny may, or may not indicate potential trouble, but the engine hoses and accessories are 20 years old, and you can expect to have to deal with them soon. Based on what I've read here, this RV was not well maintained, and if it were me, I'd pass on it. JMO

Kev
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Isaac-1

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #8 on: July 09, 2020, 11:26:45 AM »
I too agree with what has been said above, though I will note that on the topic of batteries, almost all that are on the market are fair to good products, though some are better than others. ie a $160 Trojan T-105 6V golf cart battery is going to out perform a $90 house brand 6V battery from a warehouse store.  There is a reason many / most golf courses uses Trojan batteries in their golf carts, having said that bang for the buck wire the $90 battery may be the better buy for most people.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Ex-Calif

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #9 on: July 09, 2020, 12:35:14 PM »
I would not necessarily walk but I think you are getting in the ballpark on price. $26k is an emotional number for him probably.

You absolutely have to be prepared to walk. I would personally go no more than $22.5k - This gives you a good budget to fix the things needing fixing.

1 - Roof leak / damage - As Gary said, make sure the inspector and/or you looked at the walls and areas around the repairs - this one would be a shop stopper for me.

2 - Batteries - Don't let him change the batteries. It sounds like he is doing something nice but unless you get to choose the batteries he is likely to put something cheap in.

3 - Engine - You are probably OK here as well enough as anywhere else - You can never know for sure if the engine/tranny is gonna blow up in 1,000 miles.  I would take it to a shop if you are concerned and have it examined.

4 - Tires - They are done. Don't ride your family around on old tires.  Not worth it.

5 - Windshield crack - Fix it as soon as you buy the vehicle, if you buy it.

I also agree with Gary that this sounds like lack of use and neglect - He bought from a PO and the tires were old then? What else is on it's last legs?  Appliances, charger/converter, water heater, fridge etc. etc.

How long has he owned it and why is he selling?

Have you considered going a couple years older, a little smaller and a lot cheaper for your first foray into RVs? I got a slightly smaller gas one for less than half of his $31k asking... I too got a mechanics special and was able to do the repair work myself to the tine of about $4,000... I still have way less than comparable used asking prices for similar RVs.

Not my business but is the floorplan exactly what you guys want/need? How many RVs have you looked at?  Don't fall in love until you own it.

Good luck!
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 12:37:13 PM by Ex-Calif »
"Marvin" - 1997 Georgie Boy Pursuit 3150 - P30 Chev 454
Various classic MGBs
Ex-liveaboard boater - Class A newbie in sponge mode

dsplaisted

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #10 on: July 09, 2020, 01:18:41 PM »
1 - Roof leak / damage - As Gary said, make sure the inspector and/or you looked at the walls and areas around the repairs - this one would be a shop stopper for me.

There are soft spots on the roof in two places.  That's the roof water damage I mentioned.

Inside the RV, there is some staining of the ceiling.  The inspector found that wall between the bathroom and bedroom was soft, and there was staining above it, so I'm sure there's water damage in that wall.  The other interior walls were all fine though.

Externally, a section of the side wall on one of the sliders is bowing out, which is likely from water damage inside.

The inspection report was very thorough (or at least it seems like it to me).

Quote
I also agree with Gary that this sounds like lack of use and neglect - He bought from a PO and the tires were old then? What else is on it's last legs?  Appliances, charger/converter, water heater, fridge etc. etc.

How long has he owned it and why is he selling?

He says he has owned it 3 years, went to Disneyland several times with his family, and is selling it because he got an upgraded RV.  I'm not sure how much that lines up with the fact that he says he only put 5000 miles on the tires.

Quote
Have you considered going a couple years older, a little smaller and a lot cheaper for your first foray into RVs? I got a slightly smaller gas one for less than half of his $31k asking... I too got a mechanics special and was able to do the repair work myself to the tine of about $4,000... I still have way less than comparable used asking prices for similar RVs.

Not my business but is the floorplan exactly what you guys want/need? How many RVs have you looked at?  Don't fall in love until you own it.

Good luck!

We're planning to travel around the country, probably for at least 6 weeks (and if we like it, it could be way longer).  If we were just going on weekend or weeklong trips we could probably start with a smaller RV, but as it is we want something fairly large for our family of 4.

We've looked at a bunch of RVs online and gone to see about 5 of them in person.  The bed that class C RVs usually have above the cab would be great for the kids, but there's a lot more storage space under the RV in class As.  We've seen a few listings for class As that have bunk beds, which would also be great for the kids, but those seem pretty rare.

As far as doing the repairs ourselves, I'm not a super handy type of guy, so we'll pretty much have to rely on paying for the work to be done.

Thanks!

ChasA

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #11 on: July 09, 2020, 01:38:21 PM »
I would recommend that you verify that a replacement windshield is even available.
Apex, NC
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Ex-Calif

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #12 on: July 09, 2020, 01:49:13 PM »
I had a slide in camper with a roof ding.  Small staining inside above the bed and soft spots on the front left corner.

When I opened it up the wall 1X1 framing stringers were shredded moldy dust. It was terrible. I ended up scrapping the camper.

You may keep it or as you say you may sell it on in six months - Imagine the next buyer looking at it...

"Marvin" - 1997 Georgie Boy Pursuit 3150 - P30 Chev 454
Various classic MGBs
Ex-liveaboard boater - Class A newbie in sponge mode

RRR

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #13 on: July 09, 2020, 02:36:29 PM »
Run, run, as fast as you can...
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John From Detroit

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #14 on: July 09, 2020, 04:51:35 PM »
I will address only the tires.  VERY FEW RV tires wear out.. They AGE out.  and 9 years is TOO OLD TOO OLD.

I am told (But have not confirmed) that if you get in an accendent in one state with tires that old you will be cited for over age tires.... As I said I did not attempt to confirm.   

Most RV tires however never wear out. they just age out people argue about how fast but none like to keep 'em 9 years.
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
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Isaac-1

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #15 on: July 09, 2020, 05:45:46 PM »
With this added information about roof and wall condition, etc. I say RUN AWAY, and be VERY glad you paid for the inspection.  Keep shopping, and if you are not going to be spending a lot of time in the mountain states, really give some consideration to a 33-34 ft gas class A built in the 2000's, something on the Workhorse W series chassis with the 8.1L built after 2001 or on the Ford F53 built after 2006.  They will be a lot cheaper to maintain than a diesel if you are only planning on using 6-8 weeks per year.

As to the rest of the stuff, there are a whole lot of components that age out on an RV at around the 12-15 year point, these are mostly things with rubber components, which includes belts and hoses, as well as various suspension and steering bushings, diaphragm in the propane regulator, ...  You also tend to start seeing failure of RV appliances around the 15 year mark, though some last longer, my coach is 19 years old now, and many, but not all of these rubber parts along with the refrigerator were replaced by the previous owner who put $10,000 in parts alone into the coach in the two years preceding my purchase of it in 2016.   Even with that I have spent a few thousand dollars on additional repairs and upgrades, mostly doing my own work except for the heavy lifting stuff as I have a bad back.    Notably this has included about $750 spent on the dash air conditioner just after I bought it (which has failed again on our last trip 6 months ago), $1,500 on new ball joints, $250 new fan clutch, $145 new Alternator, $ 70 and a whole lot of hours and expletives replacing the generator starter,  $750 having new hard line fabricated for the automatic parking brake (pin hole leak), as well as various upgrades (LED lighting, sink faucet, new toilet, magneshade windshield cover, ...)

Next year I already have $3,000 in the repair budget not counting the dash air conditioner, this includes new tires, as mine will turn 7 years old this fall, possibly a new roof air conditioners,   The next year if all goes well I will spend $1,900 getting some mostly cosmetic paint and minor body issues repaired, ...

So to put it another way, buying an RV is just a drop in the bucket when compared to ongoing costs of ownership, therefore buy the coach in the best condition you can find when you do.
« Last Edit: July 09, 2020, 08:54:52 PM by Isaac-1 »
2002 Safari Trek 2830

SeilerBird

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #16 on: July 09, 2020, 05:52:14 PM »
Very well stated Isaac :)) :)) :))

scottydl

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #17 on: July 09, 2020, 07:00:42 PM »
With this added information about roof and wall condition, etc. I say RUN AWAY, and be VERY glad you paid for the inspection.

I could not agree more. Now THAT is an inspection that paid for itself. Maybe send the guy a tip.

You want to find an RV that has been cared for and maintained by the previous owner. Not one that has been neglected and ignored, as it sounds like this one has.
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #18 on: July 09, 2020, 07:56:10 PM »
Quote
Caterpillar diesel engine (and an Allison transmission).  I believed that the engine and transmission at least are high quality.  Is that the case or not?
Yes they are, but any other diesel older motorhome you find will likley be equipped the same.And the mechanical condition is critical, no matter what the original equipment.

It seems every time you respond about something another problem is listed. Doesn't that tell you something?

As for the price, the $20k offer is in the right ball park for a handyman special diesel pusher, but  you don't appear to be a DIY sort of guy with time and skills to do much yourself.  I foresee months of shop time (RV shops are notoriously slow) and large repair bills.  And do you want to spend much of your first several months with the RV in repair shops, especially shops that may well find yet more things that need replacement?
Gary
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Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

dsplaisted

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #19 on: July 10, 2020, 02:49:21 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback folks.  We passed on this one.

The search goes on...

scottydl

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #20 on: July 10, 2020, 03:25:45 PM »
It's easy to get emotionally and logistically attached to these potential purchases, so I understand that letting it go might have stung a bit. However you made the right decision for sure. Keep researching, learning, and shopping, and you'll fine "the one" eventually! Make sure you utilize various search techniques like RVtrader.com as well as Ebay (filtered by keyword and distance) and Cragislist (set up keyword searched for multiple locations) to maximize your chances of finding the perfect unit for you.
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 2005 Chevrolet Silverado 3500 diesel dually
- Formerly owned a Class A motorhome

Isaac-1

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #21 on: July 10, 2020, 03:47:41 PM »
When you are shopping keep in mind the 3 most expensive things to fix on a motorhome are water intrusion / rot, paint / body and drivetrain issues.  Repairing any of these 3 category of items may exceed the fair market value of the coach.  Completely repainting a class A coach with full body paint starts at around $15,000 -$18,000 in the US (lots of people get it redone in Mexico where it is cheaper), Engine replacement on a gasoline powered motorhome is also in the same ballpark, diesel pushers can be more than double that, and professional repair of wood rot, and roof repair / replacement can also be in this same ball park.  By contrast more visible stuff like worn carpet, out of style curtains, and seating is down right cheap to replace, though still likely in the thousands of dollars.  Note there are a few shops in the country that specialize in freshening the interior appearance of older motorhomes, which may make sense if you already own an older upper end coach that is mechanically sound, and has been stored indoors so the paint is not faded.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

Trivet

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #22 on: July 11, 2020, 02:11:51 PM »
I am told (But have not confirmed) that if you get in an accendent in one state with tires that old you will be cited for over age tires.... As I said I did not attempt to confirm.

With all due respect, why wouldn't you confirm this before spreading it?  I'd be very uncomfortable saying things that I don't know are true.  But maybe that's just me.

Ex-Calif

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #23 on: July 11, 2020, 03:07:29 PM »
Good call overall...

Sounds like you want something you could pretty much jump in, turn the key and head off.  That one probably wasn't it.

Thanks for all the feedback folks.  We passed on this one.

The search goes on...
"Marvin" - 1997 Georgie Boy Pursuit 3150 - P30 Chev 454
Various classic MGBs
Ex-liveaboard boater - Class A newbie in sponge mode

jackiemac

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #24 on: July 11, 2020, 07:17:27 PM »
I think you have made the right decision. One further point I'd like to add that it if you had bought it and decided it wasn't for you, how easy would it have been to sell on, and would you have made a huge loss?

Find something in better condition. Have you considered a truck and 5th wheel?
Jackie n Steve - Happy Scottish Travellers

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WILDEBILL308

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #25 on: July 11, 2020, 08:20:04 PM »
Thanks for all the feedback folks.  We passed on this one.

The search goes on...

You will find this was the best move you could have made. There are lots of better quality used coaches out there.
Where are you and where have you been looking?
Bill
2008 Newmar Mountain Aire
450 HP ISM Cummins
Allison 4000MH Trans.
Towing 2014 Honda CRV
Home base Fort Worth, Texas
A man who carries a cat by the tail learns something he can learn in no other way.
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dsplaisted

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #26 on: July 13, 2020, 12:05:52 AM »
Have you considered a truck and 5th wheel?

We already have a Jeep which is apparently a great car for towing behind an RV (since you can disconnect the transmission easily).  So it seems like a truck and a fifth wheel would be a more expensive route to go (for roughly equivalent quality etc.).  Am I mistaken about that?

dsplaisted

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #27 on: July 13, 2020, 12:06:51 AM »
You will find this was the best move you could have made. There are lots of better quality used coaches out there.
Where are you and where have you been looking?
Bill

We live near Seattle, WA (Kirkland).  We've been looking within 150 miles of us or so.

Isaac-1

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #28 on: July 13, 2020, 12:17:34 AM »
You might want to expand your radius a bit, when I bought my current coach in 2016, I spent nearly 5 months shopping before buying a coach in Florida about a thousand miles away.  Given the Covid-19 situation I can understand not wanting to get on a plane to retrieve a motorhome, but 300-400 mile radius should be a reasonable 1 day driving radius by car to consider shopping in.
2002 Safari Trek 2830

X-Roughneck

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Re: Issues found in inspection
« Reply #29 on: July 13, 2020, 05:16:51 AM »
I am going to have to agree with Ike and others on that one, expand the search area, and keep looking for used models from individuals, so you don't have to pay the cost of doing business. 

You are going to get the better deals here in this category of Purchase (Private Sell), but you have to be patient and keep looking, there are some great deals out there, trust me when I say it. 

Really?, "New" 2011 Year Model "New" tires?  Did he have any Ocean Front Grand Canyon Property to sell also?

That takes no real effort, but to bend down and look to fact check tire dates, so he seems a little off /  Dishonest.  You will know when you talk to the honest person selling the RV.

I will add my $0.02 and Second Scotty's advice of..., get a Free RV Trader account on the web and set all your various options on one or a few coaches to include pricing and mileage.  Set for Nationwide just to get a idea on Nationwide what is out there for the coaches you are looking at, and when ever you model hits the market you will get a email link to the RV Trader ad. 

In the Used market you will need a plan B and Plan C because you just need more that one purchase option...play the looking game for a few so you can get one.

People on RV Trader are serious about selling, they paid $$ for a Ad to sell. 

COVID does make things more tricky, but I remember in August 2019 I paid $140 one way from San Antonio,TX to Detroit, MI (Southwest Air) for a Fly and buy RV Purchase. 

Search YouTube for model walk through done by many sellers.  Now is the time to open your eyes and research models so you can make a buy you are happy with. 

Don't Rush to Failure!


JD
« Last Edit: July 13, 2020, 05:37:28 AM by X-Roughneck »
2017 Winnebago Aspect 30J
2013 Jeep
M&G Air Over Hydraulic Brake on Jeep
Air Tank Adapter for braking on RV

Certified Oil Field Trash / Roughneck (5 yr)
Retired Army (20 yr)
Retired Army Civilian (10 yr)

Only Lessons I never forgot, Were taught by my parents, or a Dog.

John/JD