Possible solution: 3/4 ton diesel and 5th wheel toyhauler

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AZRickD

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Joined
Nov 9, 2007
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42
My thought of which truck to buy went up in flames tonite as I got in the middle of a neighborly Ford/Chevy debate between two dieseling-toy-hauling buddies. And here I thought I'd just back away with a Cummins-powered Dodge. They'll have none of that  ;D as they made it their duty to tell me that while the Dodge's motor is primo, its tranny, brakes, AC power and cabin noise are problems.

And here I thought that all I had to do was read the automobile edition of Consumer Reports and all would be well.  ;)  CR says that the Dodge has a significantly lower repair incidence than either the Chevy or Ford, but my neighbors still like to impress upon me the finer points of this issue.

If only I could combine a Ford body, Chevy Allison tranny, and the Cummins from the Dodge.

Good thing I'm only a slight hurry (still getting my truck ready for sale).

On to the trailer:

Having taken some brief looks through craigslist, TrailerTrader and other publications as well as reading posts here, my world view as it pertains to outdoor recreation and the getting there has changed.

I'm now considering a (ballpark) 30-foot-ish toyhauler in 5th-wheel format tugged with that 3/4ton diesel to-be-named-later. This combo has to allow the storage of my 1300-pound Polaris Ranger, a quad or two, and a 250-pound dirt bike. That's a lot of volume (not to mention weight) to put inside a toyhauler.

A twist: the prices of used toyhaulers, 5th-wheels included, appear to be far less than I had expected, making many 2000 to 2005 models within my reach. Granted, I don't know which of these manufacturers to avoid yet (or to concentrate on). That will take more research.


Rick
 
You will need to find one with a very large rear section, if seperated by a wall, or one without the rear dividing wall would probably give you more volume for your large capacity needs. Just make sure that it will carry all that weight and that the GVWR of the camper is not too much for the truck, something that heavy may need a one ton towing it. FWIW, we have a Keystone Raptor Toy hauler and have not had any major problems, and we are very pleased with it.
 
Yup, after reading your requirements, you definitely may need to rethink your truck.  With that much being hauled, in addition to the weight of the hauler itself, you may be busting the 3/4 ton mark.  You should probably be looking at the 1 ton (3500/350), or possibly even the 450 (Ford).  The way your describing your search methods, it might certainly be best if you find the trailer first, get the weights of that, then go find the truck capable of pulling it all.
 
Many of the toyhaulers I have looked at are cheaply built and clearly  targeted for the weekend user who spends most of their time (and money) in/on the toys rather than the RV. That's why the prices are relatively low compared to  trailers with better interior materials, cabinetry, etc.  Nothing wrong with that - it all depends on where your priorities lie and how big the budget is.

As for the truck, you can probably decide on which you like better and not worry to much about the "finer points". Dodge has been improving their transmission and the new Cummins is quieter than the older ones. Chevy/GMC has the Duromax and the Allison and is hard to beat.  Ford is a really sweet truck but has had some nagging problems with their 6 liter Powerstoke. However, those should be mostly behind them now.

I haven't looked at the repair trends lately but most everybody I know with a Chevy/GMC is ecstatic about their truck. But then, truck owners tend to be very proud of THEIR brand (as you have seen).

Don't buy the truck until you are sure about the weight of the trailer. And use the trailer GVWR as the required tow capacity, not the dry weight.
 
Personally I go with Consumer Reports on this one.  Buy a real Truck not a wanna be. Go with the Dodge.  Far better than the others IMHO.
 
I happen to have a Dodge but I like all makes of trucks.    ::)  If you are buying a truck new, you might want to check out December 2007 issue of Popular Mechanics.  The difference in fuel economy between the GMC/Chevy and the others was impressive! 
 
AZRickD said:
My thought of which truck to buy went up in flames tonite as I got in the middle of a neighborly Ford/Chevy debate between two dieseling-toy-hauling buddies. And here I thought I'd just back away with a Cummins-powered Dodge. They'll have none of that  ;D as they made it their duty to tell me that while the Dodge's motor is primo, its tranny, brakes, AC power and cabin noise are problems.

And here I thought that all I had to do was read the automobile edition of Consumer Reports and all would be well.   ;)  CR says that the Dodge has a significantly lower repair incidence than either the Chevy or Ford, but my neighbors still like to impress upon me the finer points of this issue.

If only I could combine a Ford body, Chevy Allison tranny, and the Cummins from the Dodge.

Good thing I'm only a slight hurry (still getting my truck ready for sale).

On to the trailer:

Having taken some brief looks through craigslist, TrailerTrader and other publications as well as reading posts here, my world view as it pertains to outdoor recreation and the getting there has changed.

I'm now considering a (ballpark) 30-foot-ish toyhauler in 5th-wheel format tugged with that 3/4ton diesel to-be-named-later. This combo has to allow the storage of my 1300-pound Polaris Ranger, a quad or two, and a 250-pound dirt bike. That's a lot of volume (not to mention weight) to put inside a toyhauler.

A twist: the prices of used toyhaulers, 5th-wheels included, appear to be far less than I had expected, making many 2000 to 2005 models within my reach. Granted, I don't know which of these manufacturers to avoid yet (or to concentrate on). That will take more research.


Rick

The discussion of the merits the various brands of truck takes on religious dimensions and usually is as profitable as any other kind of religious quarrel.  What you will need in a truck will depend almost entirely on the gross vehicle weight rating (GVWR) of the trailer that you buy.  Rear axle weight ratings with a toy hauler will also figure into the issue as toyhauler pin weights tend to be on the high side.

To nail down a truck go to the tow ratings in Trailer Life's website Tech section and determine the truck specs for the tow rating that is 10% over your GVWR.  For example if your trailer has a 10,000 lb GVWR, look for a truck with a 11,100 lb tow rating.  Go for a diesel -- a gasoline engine would require a 20% safety factor for the mountain and Paciific west, making that required tow rating for a 10,000 GVWR trailer go up to 12,500 lbs. 

Do not be surprised if your toy hauler of choice forces you to a 350 or 450 truck.  Toys weigh up.

 
 
I'm impressed that you've all kept civil about the whick-truck-is-better fight .  ;D

This weekend I'll take pen to paper and add up the weights of my toys (and potential future toys).

I have no problem with a 1-ton, but I'm an efficiency nut. I get a perverse amount of satisfaction by getting just enough tool to do the job. It drives me and my wife batty. Maybe I'll deviate from the past and get that 20% cushion.  ;)

For those of you who are curious, Consumer reports takes repair data on hundreds of vehicles. As you might suspect, the Toyotas are by far the most reliable (the 2007 Texas plant problem notwithstanding), but they are not diesels. The Dodge 2500 diesel is just a hair above average, and the Chevy and Ford trucks (gas and diesel) are significantly more troublesome (80% more). As far as over-all reliability, there isn't a question that Dodge beats the rest as far as $$$ when visiting the repair shop. All the other characteristics that make a vehicle heaven or heck are a different story.

Can you give me a short list of manufacturers to avoid, and those you'd consider (remember, I'm on a budget and I'm cheap).

Thanks,

Rick
 
Buying just enough truck is foolhardy, unless "just enough" includes a generous margin for safety and performance. And you should plan on enough truck to allow for a possible change of trailer in a few years - the truck will last a long time.

Can you give me a short list of manufacturers to avoid, and those you'd consider (remember, I'm on a budget and I'm cheap).

In a word, NO.  Every time I tell somebody to avoid the low end manufacturers and cheap brands and buy further upscale (even if used), several people dump on me for wanting only high class amenities, not understanding budget constraints, yada yada yada. And somebody else tells me how great his El Cheapo special, never breaks down and gets 30 mpg too. 

Besides, they are a zillion regional brands that may be perfectly OK but we know nothing about. It would be ashame to rule them out.

Instead, look closely at the cabinet work, wall & floor coverings, furniture construction, etc. These are all good indicators of build quality. And if one rig has all the same amenities as another but is several thousand dollars cheaper, ask yourself "what corners did they cut to do that?" Weight is another indicator - if one trailer is a lot lighter than another of the same style and size, they probably skimped on the frame.

Last but not least, pay close attention to the weight ratings so there is enough capacity for those toys. Check the axle & tire ratings - many manufacturers skimp there, putting on a pair of axles that are less than the trailer GVWR, which they justified on the basis that the truck carries a ton or so of the trailer weight. Won't they don't say is that the brakes & tires on those axles  are sized for just the axle capacity, so you end up with too little brakes on the trailer and marginal tire capacity. By the way, bigger is better on the tires - look for 16 inch wheels as one indicator of a well designed rig.

 
AZRickD said:
This weekend I'll take pen to paper and add up the weights of my toys (and potential future toys).

I have no problem with a 1-ton, but I'm an efficiency nut. I get a perverse amount of satisfaction by getting just enough tool to do the job. It drives me and my wife batty. Maybe I'll deviate from the past and get that 20% cushion.   ;)

Adding up the toys is good exercise.  Add about a half ton to a ton for fluids, groceries, personal gear, and goodies.  Compare that number with the carrying capacity of trailers to get what you need in trailer.  Then take that trailer's GVWR with a 10% safety factor (GVWR divided by 0.9) to come up with the diesel truck tow rating you need.

Please remember, in these calculations we are talking about safety and maintenance costs.  An overloaded truck is dangerous on grades an in crosswinds and it will cost you a bundle in the maintenance of brakes, drive train, and suspension.
 
Sounds like next to my house, this is going to be one of the most important purchases I've ever contemplated -- for various reasons.

Weight is another indicator - if one trailer is a lot lighter than another of the same style and size, they probably skimped on the frame.

Good info. I'm more concerned with frame and axles in my mind right now.

16" wheels. Check. 

Time for more window shopping. Back in a few days.

Thanks,

Rick
 
"My thought of which truck to buy went up in flames tonite as I got in the middle of a neighborly Ford/Chevy debate between two dieseling-toy-hauling buddies. And here I thought I'd just back away with a Cummins-powered Dodge."

You won't go wrong with a Dodge Ram Diesel. Late model trucks are much improved, and Chevy and ford have problems ;D

"as they made it their duty to tell me that while the Dodge's motor is primo, its tranny, brakes, AC power and cabin noise are problems."

The older transmissions 47Re were junk!. The new 48Re transmission is trouble free, ac and cabin noise.... maybe some isolated case.
 
Just buy what your wife likes  hey all have problems  I'm a Ford man myself and it's all a matter of choice    If the Ford and Chevy or so bad why is Ford # 1 whenit's the highest priced  Chevy is # 3 is truck  sales and Dodge is # 4 and it's cheapest of the bunch dollar wise.  Just make sure you get enough truck to do the job.,  JMO
 
2005 or 2006 seems to be my sweet spot, price-wise. Kelly Blue Book (KBB.com) has private party sales at about $30,000 +/- for the 1-ton and several hundred dollars under that for the 3/4 ton. Doesn't look like that will be an issue -- just whether I can find enough 3500s out there. Lots of 3/4 tons as you'd expect.

So, equipment and reliability has to be based those years.

Any reason not to go with the auto transmission? I'm surprised to see so many 5-speed and 6-speed manuals for sale on CraigsList and trucktrader.

Both neighbors tell me that the Dodge is very noisy in the cab, with the Fords being quieter and the Chevy's being surprisingly quiet. One said that he took a trip in his buddy's Dodge and could barely hold a conversation over the noise. I can vouch for the relative quietness of my neighbor's Duramax 2500 as it isn't nearly as "rattly" sounding as many others.

Rick
 
They are for sale because the Autos are better.  No need for a stick in todays market and really hasn't been for many many years.  These are old hard heads that never change.  I changed to A/T in 1953  Outside of marring my wife,  might be one of the smartest things I ever did.  No more dang clutch to replace or contend with.  JMO
 
I went out and calculated the gross weight of the Ranger (wet) and actually weighed the others...

Polaris Ranger -- 1350
Polaris Quad -- 240
Polaris Quad -- 240
Kawasaki -- 250
Li'l Honda -- 110

Total -- 2190

We usually do three-day weekends where 80 gallons of water is more than enough.

We have to pack tools for the toys, heavy motocross clothing (40 pounds per bag x 3) = 120

Food, clothing, etc.

Here is an example of a 5th-wheel advertised in the Phx Craig's List

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/rvs/472137394.html

and a bunch of others:

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/search/sss?query=toy+hauler+fifth+wheel&minAsk=15000&maxAsk=30000&hasPic=1

Rick
 
Of the big 3 trucks in 3/4 or 1 ton it doesn't matter, they all have problems. Look at what your gonna buy make teh sure the truck is enough. I always buy when I get the most for my dollar. As far as buying a truck that will ''just'' be enough that will cause problems. Maxing out your trucks capacity is dangerous and puts more wear and tear on the truck. I always like seeing 1/2 ton trucks towing 30ft+ 9000lb TT's and 5th'ers. Sure they can do it but is its safe and good for the truck, not IMO.
 
I've been searching the web sites you mentioned (TrailerLife, etc).

Here are the specs on the 2005 Dodge Ram 3500 Quad/4x4 short bed diesel

from the Dodge Towing Guide http://www-5.dodge.com/towing5/D/vehicle_to_weight.jsp

2005 dodge ram 3500 pickup 3500 SLT, QUAD CAB, 4WD, 6.25 Ft Bed, 4-Speed Automatic Transmission, 5.9L High-Output Cummins Turbo Diesel Engine:

With 3.73 Axle Ratio Axle Ratio You Can Tow 13950 lbs
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) = 9900 lbs
Payload = 2981 lbs
Curb Weight = 6919 lbs
Curb Weight Front/Rear = 4136 lbs/4136 lbs
GAWR Front/Rear = 5200 lbs/6200 lbs
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) = 21000 lbs

With 4.10 Axle Ratio Axle Ratio You Can Tow 15950 lbs
Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR) = 9900 lbs
Payload = 2981 lbs
Curb Weight = 6919 lbs
Curb Weight Front/Rear = 4136 lbs/4136 lbs
GAWR Front/Rear = 5200 lbs/6200 lbs
Gross Combination Weight Rating (GCWR) = 23000 lbs
 
The only way you are going to know whether the 05-06 Dodge is too noisy for you is to drive one - and more than a trip around the block too. Try to get an extended test drive, even if at a dealer you don't want to do business with. Another easy test - fire it up and then stand outside and have a conversation with the salesman and your wife, in and around the truck while it is running. It probably won't bother you at first, but see what you think after several minutes. Outside noise may not be a real big issue - it is usually much quieter inside, but it gives a basis for comparison among the three.

I found our 99 Ford diesel truck most annoying at fast food drive throughs and toll booths (cause I had to listen to what somebody outside the truck was saying through the window). Traffic light stops came next, but a distant third to the other two.  The newer ones are quite a bit quieter, though
 
RV Roamer said:
The only way you are going to know whether the 05-06 Dodge is too noisy for you is to drive one -
That's on our dance card for today.  ;D

Busy, busy, busy.
 
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