A Class C for my small family and dirt bikes?

Howdy, again.

I was back here in November discussing diesel trucks and toy haulers, dirt bikes, and Polaris Rangers. I wisely took your advice and spent some time renting and living in various modes of trailered adventure along with renting our usual 1999 26' Tioga (Ford V10). I also took your advice and paid particular attention to the needs of my wife.   

We experienced the plusses and minuses of toy haulers. Riding in a new truck is more comfy than rattling along in a Class C. That is, until my daughter has to use the potty for the third time in 100 miles.   :-\

It's also nice to have use of the pick up for traveling away from the camp site, but not much so, and with the Ranger, it's less.

The downsides are two and big ones. Sleeping in a toy hauler (at least the ones we could afford), is like sleeping in your garage. It serves a purpose, in a spartan sense, but it wasn't for my wife. The other thing is that stuffing that big Ranger in the back was going to result in damage sooner or later.

So, the solution is a Class C that is towing a tandem trailer with Ranger and bikes (say, 2,000 pounds of machine).

What I have found around town are two that interest me (since we can afford them).

Both are 1999 Ford V10 Class Cs, and both are asking $14,000.

The first is a 29' "Four Winds Majestic" with 93,000 miles. Bigger that I need -- and I wonder how that will affect towing (which is pretty marginal at ~5,000 pounds plus or minus). I rough low-retailed it on NADA for $16,000

http://images.craigslist.org/010210010300011611200801280997086483c7542477004be8.jpg

The other is a 24' Tioga with 117,000 miles. This low-retails for $14,681, ($500 mileage penalty).

http://images.craigslist.org/010207010408010304200801261440e94d5f5f32239a00f5ba.jpg

Please let me know your thoughts on these. We're going to take a look at them soon.

Thanks,

Rick

Hi Rick,

Well, keeping the wife happy is number one!!! ;D I think I would pick the Tioga over the Four Winds but I'm not an expert at either one. I think your personal view of each might be more important than my opinion. Be sure to look closely at all the details to be sure you are getting what you want. Check for any sign of water damage or other obvious defects. If there are any doubts I'd have the "winner" checked by a person that knows RV's.

I've been searching the forum and have read the comparison between Class A and Class C.

While it's only the three of us and a Class A could accommodate us, sleep-wise, there are occasions when we'd be taking one or more visitors. How would a Class A fare then?

Lastly, I keep reading Gary saying that a Class A is the same price as a Class C, foot for foot. Is that brand new? Because that doesn't seem to be the case with CraigsList or RVTrader.

Rick

Be sure to check the GCWR and towing capacity of those rigs.  A trailer, Ranger and 2000# of bikes is a lot of weight to tow behind a class C.  It will be more than 5000#, I'm sure.

AZRickD said:

Lastly, I keep reading Gary saying that a Class A is the same price as a Class C, foot for foot. Is that brand new? Because that doesn't seem to be the case with CraigsList or RVTrader.

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ASKING price and SELLING price are two entirely different things.    Class A's are often priced higher, but not necessarily valued higher.  That's where NADA comes in, which you are obviously familiar with researching.  You'd also want to make sure you're comparing gas with gas.  Any diesel rig will likely be much more expensive than a gas rig of the same vintage.  As far as sleeping capacity, a Class C probably will come with more built-in beds but will lack the more open space that many Class A owners (myself included) really enjoy.

I keep reading Gary saying that a Class A is the same price as a Class C, foot for foot. Is that brand new? Because that doesn't seem to be the case with CraigsList or RVTrader.

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Rick and I have exchanged private messages on this subject. The difficulty is in finding an apples-to-apples comparison in length, features, tow capacity, etc. You don't find too many short A's on the used market (under 30 feet), so the point may be moot in the bracket that Rick is shopping. In the over 30 feet range, the prices are indeed within a few thousand of each other where the equipment is similar, and only about $8-10k different (new MSRP) even when the A is a bit larger or has more features. For that you get a much more robust chassis (more carrying & towing capacity), much greater basement storage, and some amenities.

Mostly I try to counteract the myth that you have to spend $150k or more to have a Class A. There are A's in the $85-$99k MSRP range, some as short of 28 feet, though the minimum size is growing every year. But that's because the demand is for ever larger coaches - the C's are also growing and a large percentage are now above 30 feet.

You are expecting a lot of this size/type rig in terms of towing that big trailer and vehicles.  I'm pretty sure the Tioga won't handle what you want to tow (at least 5k lbs). The 29 foot Four Winds might if it is on the E450 chassis, but check the coach weight and GCWR carefully, remembering that you have to allow for the wife and kids, gear on board, etc in addition to the empty weight of the coach. And check the hitch capacity too - a 4000 lb limit is common on this sort of rig.

We're going searching today.

To clarify, the payload on the trailer would be 2,000 pounds (Ranger and bikes) -- and then whatever the trailer weighs (about 1,450#) for a total of 3,500 #

My wife is looking over my shoulder and is daring to prove RV Roamer right. ;D

Yeah, she's turned to the Class A section of RV Trader and is busy with the highlighter pen. She's noticed that the 1998-ish and 30-foot-ish Class As have about half the mileage for only two or three thousand more $$.

Don't let it go to your head, Gary 

She's noticed the somewhat limited sleeping configuration and is wondering if the 454 and 460 gas motors can get the job done?

Oh, heck. She's dialing numbers now.    :

Oy. Somebody answered... getting directions...

Rick

Correct on those "asking" prices...

1997 Winnebago Warrior with 57K miles

Asking $16,900

http://www.rvtraderonline.com/find/listing/1997-WINNEBAGO-Warrior-90761349

NADA says Low Retail is $9,500

http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-25-38-5697-0-0-0&l=1&w=25&p=38&f=5698&m=0403&d=2200035781&y=1997&ml=W&gc=RV&gtc=MH

Or a 1997 National Seabreeze listed at $27,500 but NADA has it for $16,700

http://www.rvtraderonline.com/find/listing/1997-NATIONAL-Seabreeze-Limited-89577734

http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-25-38-5697-0-0-0&l=1&w=25&p=38&f=5698&m=0249&d=2200027883&y=1997&ml=N&gc=RV&gtc=MH

I think these sellers might be in for a wake-up call.

Dude, are you stalking me?  Maybe just great minds think alike? 

Roberto !!!

If you're lookin' for info on RVs, this is the place. Kinda like KDXRider forum.

I have a line on a Ford V10-powered 2002 Fleetwood Terra M30H, 57K miles for $22,000

The asking prices on rvtrader and similar sites are often way out of line initially. Folks usually have a high opinion of their rigs value and often owe more than its worth anyway, so they price it higher than the market will pay [unless they do some actual market research or check NADA prices].  After several months with no offers and few inquiries they lower the price a couple times and eventually a buyer appears.

Well, lemme get this pricing thing straight...

Don't include any options? Does that mean go with what NADA says is "Price Included" and then add in things like 5.0 Onan when standard is 4.0?

Or should I just plug in the mileage and click "Get Price?"

For example, a CraigsLister has a 2000 Fleetwood Flair with 57K miles and certain doo-dad.

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/rvs/559986887.html

He's asking $31K which is high-retail.   

When I do the check-boxes that show he has a rated furnace, hydraulic jacks, etc, low retail is $25K. When I just plug in the numbers, low book is just under $19K.

http://www.nadaguides.com/default.aspx?LI=1-25-38-5697-0-0-0&l=1&w=25&p=38&f=5698&m=0138&d=2200010189&y=2000&ml=F&gc=RV&gtc=MH

Is this covered somewhere in the FAQ?    ;D

Rick

AZRickD said:

Or should I just plug in the mileage and click "Get Price?"

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Exactly.  Those extra options really aren't worth much on a used unit and should be left out completely.  Although a dealer will try to tell you different!  :

I know this point has been beat to death on this forum, but a major difference in Class "C" and "A" is the holding tank and storage compartment capacity.  These are often over looked, especially for the first time buyer.  I was dead set on buying a class "C" last year, and last minute "jumped" on a deal on a class "A" - Of course my wife really influenced it....  But after almost a year of ownership, I'm glad I went with the "A", since most of my use is dry camping, ski resort parking lots, football game tailgates..etc. I really benefit from the larger holding tanks, generator and storage the "A" offers over the "C".  Since you have been renting, you may already be aware of this, but I thought I would throw it out there.

Thanks to you "RV Elitists" at  RV Forum, my wife is "making me" weigh heavily toward the Class A.    ;D

Durn you "RV Elitists !!!"     

Anyway, it's been fun chasing down RVs in CraigsList and RVTrader-online.com.  That 2002 Fleetwood? They decided to drive it up to Washington just weeks after putting it up for sale. It's still for sale, just a short, 1,500 mile drive away.   :

My next fun consideration (thinking outside the box), is a 1992 diesel Champion UltraStar 329 QB with 53,000 miles on the odo...

He wants $20,000. It Low Retails for $16,700.   

http://phoenix.craigslist.org/rvs/570342229.html

We're also scanning the landscape for an early 2,000-ish WorkHorse upon the advice of kind members here.

When I do the check-boxes that show he has a rated furnace, hydraulic jacks, etc, low retail is $25K. When I just plug in the numbers, low book is just under $19K.

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The options thing can be a bit sticky on a Class C. Most options don't really count for anything, or a few hundred dollars at most. And the options list in the NADA guide is a generic one for all models of RVs rather than specific to the one you are looking at. You can find dozens of things to check off that in fact are standard on most models, are included in the "as typically equipped" description, or are an insignificant factor anyway, like maybe a slightly larger btu furnace.

There are a few things, however, that are significant and hydraulic leveling jacks on a Class C is one of them [unless jacks are specifically mentioned in the "as typically equipped" description]. It's a big ticket item and until recently most C's were not typically equipped with leveling jacks. And some smaller C's won't have a generator as standard/typical equipment, so that could be an add-on there. A larger size generator, though, is insignificant. So is a larger refrigerator or awning and things of that ilk.

So mostly we say to to ignore options and bargain from the base price. If a rig has a lot of options you can let it influence you to accept a price closer to the high retail than the low retail, but start your bargaining as if they weren't there. But in the case of the Class C with jacks, I would check the box and add in the price differential for that item. On a Class A I would not, because leveling jacks are typical equipment on all A's.

Started to find a lot of 2000+ Workhorse models. Someone here made the impressive statement that the Workhorse "changed RVing forever."

Here's one (from a dealer in Tucson, oops). 2001 Bounder with 27K miles. Asking $34K. I couldn't find the specific "29T" model so I priced a 31M.

The 31 M Lo-Retails for $25,500.

http://www.rvtraderonline.com/find/listing/2001-FLEETWOOD-BOUNDER-29T-WORKHORSE-91724469

We've just spent two weeks looking at used Class A rigs (2000, and 2001 Fleetwood Bounder/Flair, etc, Allegro, and so on).

The all had low miles (~20 to 30K), but they looked like someone's mother-in-law had lived in them for months at a time. Cracked side-walls on the original tires. And is it my imagination or to used Class A rigs have a peculiar aroma that Class C's (even 100K+ mile) seem to lack? My wife hates bad smells.

As well, while they drive better, from a living standpoint, we're not sure what is better in the Class A. The floor plans waste space to a great extent. I kept looking at that massive amount of room above the driver/passenger seat and wondered why no bed or loft was designed in. Even without sleeping quarters, it's a great place to store soft items.

We'll keep searching Class As, but we're going to continue including Class Cs in our search. So far, this might be a "buyer's market" but it ain't much of a market. 

Rick

Rick

As a Class C owner, I agree completely about the seemingly waste of space above the front seats of an A.  I find the cab area in my C extremely useful, either as storeage for soft items or as a regular made-up bed.  My grandkids absolutely love being up there - sleeping , playing or watching tv  - something they wouldn't have in an A.  AND they are out from under your feet!  Additionally, if you do have additional company with an A, the couch and/or dinette has to be made up to a bed to accommodate sleeping arrangements.  Not necessarily so with a bed above the cabin area.  Most A's certainly do give a greater sense of 'space', but I think a  C with a living area slide-out (or two) is equally spacious and far more practical.    I have also found that TV viewing in the typically appointed A (above the front windshield) is extremely uncomfortable.  My wife and I both have 'neck' and back issues - looking up to the TV from the sideways-on couch gets your attention the next morning.    Only a few A manufacturers place the TV and seating (for viewing) in comfortable positions (for me) - though, with the more costly rigs and 5ers,  that seems to be changing. 

I wonder how the attending A owners manage, with the typical seating, for two or more, while watching TV.(inside)? 

When there is just the two of us,  I actually place my TV on a small table between the two front seats, at eye-level.  Of course,  the same could be accomplished in an A.  Esthetically, I do think an A is more appealing but the practical side of me with a C, weighs a little heavier.  Having said all that, my DH is on the look out for a nice used A and my considerations are, well - just that... I dind't realize when we got married, 30 odd years ago,  her true name was 'Flo' ... because  I do seem to be going with along with her most of the time.

BT