Photo copyright and permission

Tom,

It is a public posted photo on the internet.  No permissions needed.  Use Google and enter "Jim Scoggins" photo.

JerryF

Not everything posted on the internet (or anywhere else public) is in the public domain.  There may still be copyrights attached.

Ned and Tom,

Ned you are absolutely correct that not everything is public but with regard to a photo the photo must be marked that it is copyrighted in order to have valid legal copyright protection.  Professional photographers usually put the copyright symbol in the lower right corner of the photo.  If someone had removed the copyright and posted it about all that can be done is for the copyright owner to tell the RV Forum to take it down.  On the other hand, Tom, no sweat because you can still run the Forum from Folsom.       

I remember that with regard to the books we published the copyright statement had to be correctly stated and in the correct location in the book.  In one of our books that had a VERY high probably of copying individual pages we put the following statement (COPYRIGHT 1990  Jerry FitzGerald.  DO NOT COPY See inside front cover for order information) in the page footer on every page of the book.  This worked for us because many many companies told me that they purchased multiple books rather than copying pages.  We would get orders for 20-50 books at a time and even had to do a second edition as well as two printings of both the first and second editions.

Tom, re the RV Forum, another thing comes into the picture with regard to copyright infringement.  Did the RV Forum use the material for money making purposes (profit)?  That answer is no.  Also, the RV Forum can copy passages from copyrighted material as long as they identify the source such as the magazine article or book by saying copyrighted by.....

Actually, we, the RV Forum, have little to worry about because we're not taking someone else "stuff" and profiting from it.  When I take something from a newspaper or magazine article I list the reference (e.g. copyrighted by) as is stated in the copyright law.

JerryF 

Jerry,, I have known a few folks over the years that 'incorporated' for legal protection when they ran a forum.

The theory being since the cost of running this forum exceeds the income... Anyone who wants it can have it, so long as they keep it up.

Thus had, say, someone sued Dave's forum (NOTE: This is not Dave's forum, in fact since Dave is .. Well,,, Deceased,,, His forum is not his forum any more,  Natural causes least anyone worry)

Well, If someone had sued Dave's forum.. Then Dave would have come out ahead as he'd no longer have to pay the bills to run it!

My understanding of copyright law is that the copyright notation and/or symbol is no longer required on any type of work. Anything written and all photos taken are considered automatically copyrighted at the moment of creation. It's still useful, though, as a warning if you are serious about not having your work copied or recreated. Most web use is considered no big deal if, as noted here earlier, it's on a page that is not for profit.

Thanks everyone for those perspectives.

FWIW we have some comments regarding copyright and the notion of "fair use" in our forum rules. (Click the Rules button above.) There are also words of wisdom at the US Copyright Office web site, including a definition of what works are protected and an explanation of fair use.

I ran a site called Graphics Depot for 8 years and spent quite a bit of time reading the copyright laws. The moment you create a work it is covered by US copyright laws. You don't need to put a copyright symbol on it. But if you put something on the Internet and expect the several billion people who use the Internet to respect US copyright laws you will be disappointed. It is my belief that you should never publish anything on the Internet and worry about the copyright laws. They are simply unenforceable. I can remove a copyright notice with Photoshop in a matter of seconds, no matter how big the notice is. Whenever I publish a picture on the Internet I do so with the belief that anyone in the world can use it for whatever they want to. That way I sleep better at night.

Thanks for that seilerbird. Understood and no disagreement, although I wouldn't edit someone's copyright or watermark out of a photo.

Just curious, would you also use someone else's photo with the knowledge/beliefe that the copyright laws can't be enforced?

It's true there has to be financial harm to the copyright owner in order to collect damages under the US copyright laws. Financial harm can occur if the copyist uses the copy to make money, but it also occurs if the copyist gives away something that the owner normally sells, i.e. deprives the owner of his income or value.  So a non-profit use can still cause the owner harm and the copyist could still be sued for damages. An example might be free copies of songs or movies that are sold on tape or disk.  That's what the Napster lawsuit was about, even though Napster made no money off the free music distribution.

Copyright law is extremely complex and numerous attorney's make a living arguing its nuances. No simple rule we could quote here covers all the possibilities. Certainly, however, the risk is tiny in our little corner of the world, and most likely any contested use here would not result in civil penalties - probably nothing more than a demand to stop.

Right, Gary,
a photo which was copied without permission from my site on the internet is no longer "sellable". Too many (free) copies meanwhile. That was a financial harm to me. That's why I always ask for permission, when I want to use a text or a picture from the internet.
Copyright makes no difference if you use a picture or a text commercial or privately.

Tom said:

Thanks for that seilerbird. Understood and no disagreement, although I wouldn't edit someone's copyright or watermark out of a photo.

Just curious, would you also use someone else's photo with the knowledge/beliefe that the copyright laws can't be enforced?

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NO, I would never Photoshop someone's copyright or watermark out of a photo, I am just saying anyone with simple Photoshop skills can do it. And no, I would never use someone else's photo for any reason. I am a photographer and I have plenty of my own photos to choose from. The point of my original post was that the copyright laws simply can't be enforced and so if you are going to post something on the Internet it is best to just give it to the world and not worry about copyright infringers. If you did find someone infringing on your copyright who would you complain to?

My wife is a personal trainer and has her own small business, and I found a logo for her business cards by typing a few key words in Google Images and scrolling through dozens of pages until I found something I liked.  Honestly I have no idea who the actual owner of the image is (or the location of the image where Google found it).  Bad idea?  FWIW, I didn't use the exact file I downloaded - I changed the color and a couple other things in Photoshop.  Does that eliminate the copyright if there was one with the original image?

Changing a copyrighted photo doesn't change the copyright. That is similar to rappers who use bits of other songs in their song and then get sued. Your business card is a bad idea, but I doubt anyone would ever notice. Since you know how to use Photoshop why not redesign it using an original idea of your own?

Thanks for the clarifications seilerbird.

NO, I would never Photoshop someone's copyright or watermark out of a photo, I am just saying anyone with simple Photoshop skills can do it.

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That was my understanding, and I didn't mean to imply otherwise.

The point of my original post .... so if you are going to post something on the Internet it is best to just give it to the world and not worry about copyright infringers.

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Understood, but that wasn't the original intent of this discussion. We were talking about me not wanting to use someone else's photo without permission, rather than me worrying about someone else using my photos. Most of the replies suggested it either wasn't an issue or I shouldn't worry about it because the owner can't enforce any applicable laws.

FWIW when I've used/reproduced the work of others here, I've specifically asked for their permission. (For clarification, I'm specifically talking about using/reproducing within other areas of this forum, our library, photo albums, and our web site.) Many folks, including Jerry, have kindly told me I can use anything they've posted here. However, asking is a courtesy on my part, because our Registration Agreement includes the following paragraph:

You agree that your posted material may be freely re-used &/or reformatted by forum staff in the forum, on our web site, in our forum library, or in our photo gallery without restriction. This re-use/reformatting will usually be for the benefit of the RV Forum membership at large. Due attribution to the author of such material will be given where this is appropriate. In the event that you do not wish your material re-used in this manner, you may contact the RV Forum Administrator with a request which should specify exactly what material should not be re-used.

The risky area for a forum such as this is in copying an article from another page, e.g. a news or magazine article available online. These are nearly always copyrighted by the owner and they typically have legal staff to protect their rights and do so even when there is no real damage. They do so to maintain the validity of their intellectual rights, i.e. to establish that the owner considers his property valuable and wants to preserve them for his own commercial use. Generally the legal action would be a simple demand to remove the offending item and to cease and desist.  Press releases are always fair game - they are released to all media. Anything else is subject to the Fair Use doctrine, which quickly gets foggy when the item is published on the internet.  It is always best to link to the original article rather than to make a complete copy of it. Excerpts are usually a fair use, but at some point an excerpt becomes a substantial copy and Tom is right to be concerned about them, even though the personal risk to him may be small.

seilerbird said:

Changing a copyrighted photo doesn't change the copyright.

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Well good to know, I guess.  What about generic store products, that are packaged to look ALMOST like the brand name?  Usually all they've done with the image/logo is change a color here or a swirl there.

seilerbird said:

Since you know how to use Photoshop why not redesign it using an original idea of your own?

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I can edit things, but I'm not exactly a digital artist by any means.    It sounds like I will need to change the logo though on future cards, to avoid any potential problems and simply make sure I'm "doing the right thing".

One place for some info:

http://www.photoattorney.com/2006_03_01_photoattorney_archive.html

I am an amateur photographer, and I've put a lot of photographs on the internet. For the most part, I use Flickr when I want to make images available online. There is a setting in preferences to set the level of rights you want to have on your images. One of those is to preserve all copyrights. That means that people that look at your images can't right click and save the image That ability is disabled. I also have a gallery on my website where I make images available to order prints. I have also disabled the ability to right click and save on that site.

I am not naive, and know that if someone wants something bad enough they will most likely be able to get around any safeguards I set up. But if they're willing to go to that much trouble, I'm flattered they would want a copy of one of my pictures that badly.

scottydl said:

Well good to know, I guess.  What about generic store products, that are packaged to look ALMOST like the brand name?  Usually all they've done with the image/logo is change a color here or a swirl there.

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Copying something and making it look almost the same is a whole different kettle of fish than simply copying. Guitar makers are plagued by other companies copying their design and changing one little thing so it is different than the original. The guitar makers have tried for years to shut the copycats down with almost no luck. You can buy a brand new Gibson Les Paul for about $2000 or a Chinese copy that is almost identical for under $200. It upsets the heck out of Gibson but there is nothing they can do.

scottydl said:

I can edit things, but I'm not exactly a digital artist by any means.    It sounds like I will need to change the logo though on future cards, to avoid any potential problems and simply make sure I'm "doing the right thing".

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I am a good digital artist, scan in your current card and post it here and I will see what I can do once I get my computer back from HP.

TarheelRambler said:

I am an amateur photographer, and I've put a lot of photographs on the internet. For the most part, I use Flickr when I want to make images available online. There is a setting in preferences to set the level of rights you want to have on your images. One of those is to preserve all copyrights. That means that people that look at your images can't right click and save the image That ability is disabled. I also have a gallery on my website where I make images available to order prints. I have also disabled the ability to right click and save on that site.

I am not naive, and know that if someone wants something bad enough they will most likely be able to get around any safeguards I set up. But if they're willing to go to that much trouble, I'm flattered they would want a copy of one of my pictures that badly.

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All you need to do is press the Print Screen button and every thing on the screen is put on the Windows clipboard. Open up a program like Photoshop or Paint, open a new document and push the Paste button and you have an exact duplicate of you Flickr photo. Then you can cut out the photo and save it. This takes less than one minute. So don't think your photos are safe on Flickr. It is no trouble at all to do this.