Language and cultural differences

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
56kz2slow,

It's totally different between the British, American, Australian, and Canadian English speaking blokes.  We all say it's different but not with the attitude found in Quebec.  We laugh at the differences, joke about them, and try to learn the other's word meanings and pronunciations.  We don't refuse to speak to each other!
JerryF
 
The history of French in North America is long and involved.  Much as the Cajuns have created their own dialect, so have the Quebecers.  It really is no different than hearing all the American accents, many of which are close to impossible to understand even to most Americans.  We have good friends at the site in Florida who grew up in TN, and even after 3 years, we still ned to ask them to slow down and translate.  You'll really see that when you get to NF, where the English has a lot of varients that go back over 200 years.  As Mark will tell you, we grew up in New Brunswick, and while there is a lot more English that has found its way into the French, the accent is much closer to that of today's Paris, yet the Acadians were even further cut off from France.  None of that speaks to the intolerence you find in Quebec to the English language.  It has gotten so bad over the past couple of decades that I refuse to try and use my French, which I was 100% fluent in. and ensured my kids were educated in both languages.
 
We all say it's different but not with the attitude found in Quebec.

On the flip side are the rich English coal mine owners who controlled even the schools in Wales, where kids were beaten for speaking their native Welsh language. Now that's attitude!
 
It is amazing how intolerant people can be over things like language.  Before he departed this earth, from old age, I met Senator Hayakawa from the state of California. He was a University Professor and world famous expert on language.  The warning he gave us was to keep the US English only because if you allow the country to become multi language you will loose the fabric and glue that holds the country together.  When all-the-people cannot understand each other you are no longer a homogeneous society.

As an example of his warning look at Canada, twice now Quebec has tried to divide Canada into two countries.

JerryF
 
Yes, but you have to remember the history of Canada, it dates back to 1604 when the first French settlers arrived St-Croix Island, ME.

It is much more complex than implementing one language or another.  The British tried several times to abolish the French language with various wars and even deportation.  Various treaties after each war divided the territory several times to form what we know now as US with its States and Canada with its Provinces.

Whether it is language, religion or culture, tolerance is the key to a good relationship.  It's like a wedding, it takes some give and take from both sides.  Regardless of the differences, if one imposes it's way on the other, it will never work in the long term.  And if it does work, it will create resentment for generations and that is in part what we see in Qu?bec because of previous attempts to abolish them dating back to the 17th Century.

So it did not start yesterday and it will certainly not end tomorrow.

One thing we have to remember is that it is normally a minority that are intolerant.  We always remember bad experiences, so we talk more about them. 

Due to the need for immigration to replace the aging workforce which is not being replaced due to lowest birth rates in the history of the country, I suspect the problem to compound over the years.  While it is true that a common language between all makes communication easier, there is not one group that is willing to give up their language, which brings us back to tolerance and give and take.

I am 38 years old and expect that debate to still be ongoing long after I am dead.
 
It will be very interesting to see what actually happens in the US when Spanish overtakes English as the majority language spoken in the US.  I can't remember, but it is project to occur within the next 15 to 20 years.  It is all fine to say that a language Professor says don't make anything but English official, that's somewhat akin to trying to stop the tide from coming in with a pitchfork, it won't happen.
As Marc said, the only way of dealing with it is through tolerance on all sides, as we have learned in Canada.  Franco Quebecers were oppressed for generations, so they now feel the need through "reverse discrimination" to make up for all the slights.  Although the Acadians had some problems, by and large, they were not as badly oppressed, and received help in the 1960's to blossom culturally and economically.  So, New Brunswick is the only officially bilingual Province, and within the next 20 years virtually every New Brunswicker will speak both fluently.  When I was a kid growing up. there was not a public Francophone High School anywhere in NB  Fortunately. that's now changed

Ed
 
Just wanted to add a couple of comments as I am an English-speaking Canadian who lived in Province Quebec for more than two years, while attending McGill, and studied French for over 13 years, even minoring in it in university, years ago.

Many of you have commented on Francophones being rude and unreceptive to many travellers. Many have also mentioned that any effort to converse with them in their own tongue usually creates more willingness to engage. There is a good reason for that. French-speaking citizens in this country have been downtrodden and ignored historically for centuries, since the battle on the Plains of Abraham when Montcalm was defeated. Their Province was on the end of the receiving list for political and other goodies until perhaps just the last three decades since the FLQ crisis. Compared with English-speaking citizens, they have been impoverished in too many ways to count. The French population has stored considerable anger over the generations. They are used to being maligned and trivialized and treated as if they have little value.

Quebequois citzens, by and large, see Americans as even more arrogant and privileged, and yet crass and without esthetic taste, than English-speaking Canadians (and we are also often subject to the kind of conduct you report). The real trick is to let them know you admire and respect their world and their customs and their language. They need to sense this from you as visitors because that Nationalist pride, though fierce, has not been shared or shown by others in their own country.

By all means, take a dictionary or get a foreign language calculator. Try not to wear things or act in ways that may seem to  loudly proclaim "We are Americans and that means we are better". I think you will find that the French people both here and abroad are engaging and quick and funny and very outgoing. One must get past that core mistrust, however.

JMO

jan

PS And do NOT make comments to them about the differences between French as spoken abroad and the French that has evolved in this country. The Francophone population has heard enough disparaging remarks in that regard as well, I assure you.
 
wendycoke said:
I feel sorry for anyone who speaks only one language whether it's French or English or Swahili.

Wendy

  This reminds me of an old joke. 

What do you call someone who speaks 3 languages?  Trilingual.

What do you call someone who speaks 2 languages?  Bilinual.

What do you call someone who only speaks one language?  An American.

But laying all seriousness aside for a moment, there are two sentence that I will learn first when entering a region where I'm not familiar with the language.  First is:  "Does anybody speak English?"  And second: "Where is the bathroom?"  Both vitally important for the intrepid traveller.

Steve
An American who speaks a bit of Spanish and can't pronounce French words the way he reads them.
 
This has been a very interesting thread.  Thanks to all who have contributed!

I might mention one difference between the U.S. usage of English and the Canadian bilingual situation.  Whereas Canada was settled by both the French and the English which resulted in two languages being used, the U.S. was settled primarily by the English and, as such, was more homogeneous from the beginning.  I believe that is what Senator Hayakawa was alluding to when he said we needed to formally make English our national language to maintain that homogeneity.  Yes, there have been pockets of people speaking other languages but, until quite recently, everyone learned English when they came to our shores and that is one factor that has made the U.S. such a unique and dynamic country.  Each ethnic group has been free to maintain its own ethnic heritage at home, but we've all wanted to communicate in the commercial arena and have used the predominate language which happens to be English.

By the way, I appreciate the comment about our regional speech differences (so true!) but, as we all move around the country more, many of those differences are either disappearing or people take on other accents as they assimilate in another region.  My own childhood experience exemplifies this.  I was born in Pennsylvania and learned "western Pennsylvania" speech, then we moved to the South where I started school in Nashville, then we returned to western Pennsylvania.  When we went south the other kids used to say, "Ardra, you talk funny."  Then when we returned to Pennsylvania, the other kids would say, "Ardra, you talk funny."  I had speech patterns from both north and south, which made me stand out from the other kids.  Now that I've lived in the west most of my adult life, I tend to think I've lost most of my eastern accents, but every once in a while someone will ask me where I'm from in Pennsylvania so I know it's still there for someone with a "good" ear to distinguish.

ArdraF
 
When we went south the other kids used to say, "Ardra, you talk funny."  Then when we returned to Pennsylvania, the other kids would say, "Ardra, you talk funny."

LOL Ardra, I resemble that remark. When we first moved to California from the UK (and when I used to visit during the years prior to moving), folks would whisper "what did he say?"  If we had UK visitors at home or at work, the whispers changed to "he's speaking Welsh", whereas I was speaking English, or maybe Wenglish.

Whenever we or any of the kids return to the UK, we're told "you speak funny".

Our daughter entered the CA school system at 8th grade. Every day, the teacher had different kids read something to the class. When our daughter read aloud, the teacher realized that all the kids sat very quietly, so she thought it would be a good idea for our daughter to read to the class every day. It didn't take our daughter long to change her accent, and for people to refuse to believe she was related to us.
 
I'm reminded of a time I joined a small CA company where almost all the employees were Hispanic. I needed to be able to communicate with them, and hired a bilingual person as an interim measure. I'd hold frequent group meetings, and everything would be translated.

My next step was to work with a local community college to conduct English language classes during working hours. I was very concerned about the chemistry between teacher and students, so I insisted on interviewing a number of potential teachers ad picked one. When I asked how she'd start the process, the lady explained that she'd talk to the employees individually about their home and family (anything non-threatening), then she'd put them into one of two categories:

  • The folks with no knowledge of English.
  • The folks who could understand English, but were too intimidated to speak it because they didn't have all the vocabulary or the grammar.

A week later the lady came back to me and said "you have a third category of employees here; Those who are not literate in their own language". This was not something I'd expected.

The lady began her classes and I decided that, to be fair, I should attend Spanish classes at a college. I think that the employees did a better job of learning English than I did of learning Spanish, but the need for translation diminished significantly.

Some years after leaving that company I was still hearing feedback from employees via mutual friends and acquaintances. The typical comment was "He did more for us than anyone else in the years we've worked here; Amongst other things, we can now go to the bank and communicate with the teller, rather than wave our arms."
 
islandmomma,

Thank you for that background explanation; It certainly helps understand some of the reactions and behavior we've observed.
 
Sounds good to me.  When I'm in Quebec I play the game by their rules/beliefs and I get along very well. 

On the other hand it is to bad that many of Quebec's citizens feel that "Compared with English-speaking citizens, they have been impoverished in too many ways to count. The French population has stored considerable anger over the generations. They are used to being maligned and trivialized and treated as if they have little value." 

With regard to these feelings, it is their loss to carry that grudge.  The citizens of Quebec have to solve it for themselves, neither English speaking Canadians nor Americans can solve it for them.

JerryF

 
JerArdra said:
With regard to these feelings, it is their loss to carry that grudge.  The citizens of Quebec have to solve it for themselves, neither English speaking Canadians nor Americans can solve it for them.

After living there as we did it appears they are not interested in trying solve it themselves.
 
Ron said:
After living there as we did it appears they are not interested in trying solve it themselves.

I think it will start to happen over the next few generations.  40 years ago and more is the period that caused the most anger.  Also, 40 years ago, there was not much connection with the outside world except for travelers.  Now with television and the internet, younger generations are more in contact with the rest of the planet that some of these things will change.  Things like saving the planet and finding alternative energy may become a higher priority over this.

At some point, it's time to get over it.  For example, I don't like what the British did to us the Acadians back in 1755.  However, there is no point to hold a grudge against any of the living British because neither them or me were there back then.
 
... I don't like what the British did to us the Acadians back in 1755.

Probably English, and we don't like what they did to us either (see my earlier message). But, as you correctly say, time to move on.
 
Back
Top Bottom