Adding electric service for RV/Camper

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BernieD said:
I'm not an electrician and I haven't read the code, but if the pedestal had both 50 and 30 amp breakers, wouldn't that meet the code? Might be a little more expensive to install but a lot less headaches and more happy campers.

I think what you mean to say 50A and 30A receptacles at each sites, but it is not possible.  I went to other campground and saw how they are set up before talking with the electrican yesterday and realized that is why it was set up like this.  Other campground had 9 sites with 50A and 30A receptacles combined and 14 sites with 30A rceptacles with all sites offering 120v receptacles.  That is complied by the code.

But as I have said few times, manufactuerers are not offering as many 30A campers as they used anymore.  If you pay camper dealer a visit, they will tell you 75% of new campers in stock have 50A.  This will be interesting to see how code and campground owners will work in the future.
 
I guess I have new question now like what happen if we end up having more campers with 50Amp than what is being provided?  Will they still be able to use the 30amp service but mind the appliances that can not be used in this reduced service??

In a word, yes, they'll get by. Several of us have mentioned 50A-30A adapters which allow some of the electrical stuff in a 50A coach to be run off a 30A pedestal. Many coaches have systems that detect the power source and will prevent overloading the circuit by disabling some appliances.
 
... manufactuerers are not offering as many 30A campers as they used anymore.  If you pay camper dealer a visit, they will tell you 75% of new campers in stock have 50A.

That equation is likely to change as dealers and manufacturers find that, due to fuel prices, many buyers don't want the large rigs. Sales of smaller rigs have reportedly been increasing, while sales of larger rigs have been decreasing.
 
Tom said:
That equation is likely to change as dealers and manufacturers find that, due to fuel prices, many buyers don't want the large rigs. Sales of smaller rigs have reportedly been increasing, while sales of larger rigs have been decreasing.

That is a real point on guessing the future of commercial campgrounds.  A motorhome, especially the big class A's, are more independent of campground power what with their big built in generators and large batter banks and big inverters.  To verify this one only need look around at the units occupying open desert by the thousands at Quartzite.

A middling size, lightweight trailer, with no generator, smaller tanks, and maybe two 12v or 6v batteries is really going to want to snuggle up to a campground utility post.  50amp service on that type of RV is rare, 30 amp is the norm.

Now you have to ask with CA gas at $4 to $4.70 and CA diesel around $5, what kind of RV is going to be more popular in the future?  Past practice in the industry is just that, past.  I would bet on light trailers pulled by hybrid SUVs and light duty trucks being the future -- the European pattern in fact.  Furthermore, the touring pattern is likely to be drive to and park for a week or more in a CG.


 
I just spoke with my electrican in person recently and we have concluded that since I will have 77 RV sites in the future, here is what we will do for one row right now.  We will insert 4 50Amp, 6 30AMP, and 4 120V so it will become our testing RV sites and do some study until we are ready to expand our service then we will determine how to fill up the other 60 sites.
 
You pays your money and you takes you choice. I'm thinking you might regret the loss of flexibility with those "120V" sites, by which I assume you mean 15/20A receptacles. If you installed 30A in addition to the 20A at those sites, you could still accommodate 30A rigs in those sites, and could also accommodate 50A rigs using adapters.

Be sure to let us know how your choices work out.
 
Tom said:
You pays your money and you takes you choice. I'm thinking you might regret the loss of flexibility with those "120V" sites, by which I assume you mean 15/20A receptacles. If you installed 30A in addition to the 20A at those sites, you could still accommodate 30A rigs in those sites, and could also accommodate 50A rigs using adapters.

Be sure to let us know how your choices work out.

That's something to think about and as I said, it will be our testing row so it won't be a big loss.  We will still have 60+ more camper sites to expand in the future.  With weak economic and high fuel price, we are going to restrict our spending and we are having a biker bash on Sept 19-20 with about 10 campers reserved knowing one will need 50Amps while others need 30Amps and 120v.  We are going based on what our loyals need when we had few 120v to offer in the past.

Other thing to keep in mind is that instead of adding new box, which will then require a building permit and being inspected.  If we stick with our plan of adding 4 50Amps, 6 30Amps, and 4 120v in additional to existing 6 120v then we will remain under the 240 volts meeting the requirement of our currently box that is on the pole.  Each 50Amp account for 9,600 volts- 30amp and 120v account for 3,600.  You add them up and multiply it by 47% (based on number of receptacles provided) and divide it by something.. I dont have the formula on me but basically if itis over 240 then need another box with separate meter. 

We feel good with what we are going to do.  All 50amp sites and few 30amp sites will not be more than 50 feet from existing 120v if they have 50-100' extension cord in hand.
 
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Personally I think it would be better to have just 50 and 30 amp sites. I assume what you refered to as 120V sites were 20 amp sites.  Not going to be that much difference in cost to go 30 instead of 20 AMP. All sites better be 120VAC whether 20, 30, or 50 amp.
 
First, you don't add voltages when determining the power requirements, you add amperes.  Second, 50A, 30A and 20A outlets are all 120v.  You really need to have a professional electrician plan out your power system.  If I knew that a campground had electrical service that wasn't constructed with the proper permits, I would pass it by.  I've seen too many self installed electrical systems that either performed poorly at bets, or cause damage to RV electrical systems at worst.

If you don't put at least 30A outlets at all sites, you will find it difficult to fill the 20A sites.
 
Ron said:
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Personally I think it would be better to have just 50 and 30 amp sites. I assume what you refered to as 120V sites were 20 amp sites.  Not going to be that much difference in cost to go 30 instead of 20 AMP. All sites better be 120VAC whether 20, 30, or 50 amp.

Not going to happen... according to NEC (national electric code) book, box are allowed 30-35% of 50AMP breakers.  If you set up all sites 50 and 30 amps, that is 50% of 50Amp breakers and 50% of 30amp breakers.  I do agree with you on this but code is code and building inspector will not allow that.



Ned said:
First, you don't add voltages when determining the power requirements, you add amperes.  Second, 50A, 30A and 20A outlets are all 120v.  You really need to have a professional electrician plan out your power system.  If I knew that a campground had electrical service that wasn't constructed with the proper permits, I would pass it by.  I've seen too many self installed electrical systems that either performed poorly at bets, or cause damage to RV electrical systems at worst.

If you don't put at least 30A outlets at all sites, you will find it difficult to fill the 20A sites.

Ned, interesting perspective but do you work as electrical instructor at Technical College?  Do you work as electrican for industrial company??  My friends does!  I am just following what they say and they are working within my budget.  And didn't you read the whole thread??  I said this row would be a testing to see how it works out and get some feedback.  To close this off, I think you would be surprised how many bikers use 20amp (with GFI) sites when hauling in motorcycles in enclosed trailer and then convert it into camper using enough power for whatever serve their purpose.  My campground is designed to be a biker campground and I know what I see at many biker events like this. 
 
My campground is designed to be a biker campground and I know what I see at many biker events like this. 

If you'd said that in your first message you might have received a different set of responses. Instead, you talked about 50A all the way, and asked:

if you were to start your own campground with rv services, how would you do it?
 
Tom said:
If you'd said that in your first message you might have received a different set of responses. Instead, you talked about 50A all the way, and asked:

Correct and that was before I learned of what code allows.  Now that we know it is not possible, you have to change and improvise, right??
 
Good luck with your project, and I hope your campground does well. We have a number of biker friends who put their bikes in a toy hauler and tow it to a campground, then ride from there.

As others have said, there's something wrong with your friend's formula, or maybe you misunderstood what he was telling you; Any basic book on electrics will explain that you add the currents, not the voltages. I'd get another opinion, or maybe ask your friend to explain it differently.

Yes, I've worked a a qualified electrician in a large industrial company, and dealt with power distribution from 166,000 volts down to 110 volts AC, in addition to a couple of power generation plants. All this before moving into electronics. I've taught at a college, but alas it wasn't electrical theory that I was teaching.
 
Now that I have had a chance to talk with electricians, we realized that there may be a problem!  According to NEC (National Electric Code) book, here are the following:

   * 1) Box can not have 100% 50AMP breakers, and the rule stated that at least 65-70% of 30Amp breakers and 30-35% of 50Amp breakers are acceptable For example, 22 50Amp breakers are not acceptable while having 15 30Amp and 7 50Amp breakers may be acceptable.
   * 2) NEC doesn't recognize nor approve of the 50-to-30 adaptors despite the fact it is being sold by camper dealers or at market stores.

You need a different electrician. There is no such rule/requirement in the NEC specific to 50A outlets or Rvs. What there is in the NEC is a limit on the number of outlets of a given amperage that can be fed from any given source, limiting the overall load to an 80% factor. For example, if you have a 200A 240 v supply, you cannot supply more than five (5) 50A/240v outlets (250A) from it. If you have dual 50A/30A outlets, you can assume a lessor average load and supply 6  or so outlets (I haven't done the arithmetic).

I'm guessing form your messages that you have a fixed supply amperage and so need to limit the total number of outlets or increase the supply side to provide what you want.  It would be a poor decision to provide less amperage than your customers need simply because your supply is lacking. You are spending big bucks on a campground upgrade, so don't skimp on the power supply. Put the necessary $$ into increasing the power supply to meet the needs of your customers. Anything else would be foolish, in my opinion.

I am surprised you do not have a good idea of how many of your customers need which type of electrical hook-up. We have worked in numerous campgrounds and the type of electrical hook-up desired is the first question we asked and the first thing that renters inquired about.
 
I will take advice and get second opinion.  Let me get back to you after I get second opinion.  Thanks!
 
I agree with the others that you would be doing yourself a favor by getting a different electrician.  Gary is absolutly correct.  I also agree with Gary about not skimping on the power supply.  It doesn't cost that much more to do it right the first time around and avoid the rework later.  Just trying to be helpful.
 
I agree with the 50a and 30a being all you need.  I had a electrician install a 220 volt 30a circut at my sisters house.  I took a look and said what is this?  You gonna cause me trouble.  That is a 120volt system in that trailer.  "Call your supervisor".  He did and I got a $100 dollar break on the orginal estimate that was made over the phone because of his mistake.

 
MDPark04's electrician may well have been correct, given some set of source power constraints that he was given or assumed. The issue here is the lack of understanding of the requirements. You start witht he customer requirements and determine what is needed to supply the power to meet those requirements. If that is too expensive to fit in the budget, then you either revise (reduce) the requirement or cancel/curtail the project.  Spending good money to wire the park to unsuitable specs because of a misunderstanding is a waste.
 
MDPark04's electrician may well have been correct...

I can't see how he could have come up with the voltages he quoted. 110V is 110V, and 220V is 220V. Neither of them "add up" to 9600V. I was suspecting he quoted watts, or VA, but couldn't make he math come out. It sounded like he may also have been using what we used to call a diversity factor, essentially a fudge factor that assumes that not every receptacle will be loaded to its capacity concurrently. It's valid in, say, a kitchen at home, but I have no idea if it's relevant in a campground situation where everyone could be running their a/c at the same time and/or all cooking at the same time. Nor do I have any idea what the relevant code says.

Might be worth researching one of these days, because we do get occasional questions of this nature.
 
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