Sin taxes pay for medical benefits

    It never ceases to amaze me how some strings seem to have lives of their own.  While talking about "Sin Taxes"  it is unbelievable how much has changed in the world since this string started.  My comments about Canada avoiding a recession were WRONG, the US economy has tanked, most of this continent has had its worst weather in decades, and it's only the first week of March.  Time to get behind the wheel, forget the negative and enjoy all the good things.

Ed

People are going to use it...might as well create some legitimate farm jobs and a huge tax base.  Better that than to see billions in U.S. dollars heading south across the border

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I totally agree. We tried "prohibition" before with alcohol and that just created a wealthy and powerful criminal world, just like drugs have done today. Attempt s to stamp out social activities that people want to do are doomed to failure, so we may as well get some tax revenue from it and avoid creating a stream of wealth out of the country as well as frequent violence.  There would still be some enforcement problems similar to what happened when the 'whiskey tax" was first applied (the bootleggers vs the  "revenuers"), but the bulk of the illicit MJ market would go into regular channels. We have the basic mechanisms in place for cigarettes nand maybe RJ Reynolds & Philip Morris could have a new role!  I'm sure, though, that the government would try to invent a cumbersome new bureaucracy instead. 

it is unbelievable how much has changed in the world since this string started.

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Six months ago who would have believed that fuel would once again be reasonably priced but the economy would so bad that many can't afford to buy it or go anywhere if they could? Or that major retailers, restaurants and corporations would be disappearing almost daily? 

I read last night that a major oil industry problem right now is finding places to store oil that has been pumped out of the ground but nobody needs. Tank farms are full and huge tankers are being anchored off shore because there is no place to unload their oil.

re 'reasonably priced gas' and where to store the oil no-one wants right now????

When supply is tight, the gas companies have no difficulties jacking the price up to stratospheric levels.
Now, when supply is overabundant, shouldn't the price be much lower?
I accept that the basic drilling/shipping/refining/distributing costs are unchanged, but nonetheless.
Maybe they just haven't thought of it?
:
Rankjo

The problem with "sin taxes" to pay for programs is that sometimes the "sin" goes away and then you're out that revenue. If we're using cigarette taxes to pay for child health care, what happens when people quit smoking (and there are a LOT fewer smokers than there used to be)? The revenue goes down and then we need to jump the tax rate so that the lower amount of "sinners" provides the same amount of revenue. Fewer sinners pay more each to get the same total revenue.

Wendy

Wendy said:

The problem with "sin taxes" to pay for programs is that sometimes the "sin" goes away and then you're out that revenue. If we're using cigarette taxes to pay for child health care, what happens when people quit smoking (and there are a LOT fewer smokers than there used to be)? The revenue goes down and then we need to jump the tax rate so that the lower amount of "sinners" provides the same amount of revenue. Fewer sinners pay more each to get the same total revenue.

Wendy

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Raise the sin tax rate.

Instead of sin tax maybe it should be called dumb tax.  I.E. It is well known that smoking and/or chewing tobaco is hazardous to ones health and IMHO it is dumb to continue. So why should the users of tabaco pay more into the medical to support the dumb habit. ;D

Ron said:

Instead of sin tax maybe it should be called dumb tax.  I.E. It is well known that smoking and/or chewing tobaco is hazardous to ones health and IMHO it is dumb to continue. So why should the users of tabaco pay more into the medical to support the dumb habit. ;D

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Sin = Dumb

Well now,  sin taxes pay for a large portion of Canadian Medicare, which is Universal and Free, so I'm in favour of them.

Sin taxes also pay for the advertising that tells people sinning is a bad thing.

But we do it anyway.

Rankjo

I read a study by a Harvard economist that indicated that MJ is a $35B cash crop and would bring $14B a year in cost savings alone from enforcement and prosecution expenses.  Add in tax revenue and the revenue to legitimate producers and you could be looking at a additional $50B a year net increase to GDP.

BTW, I did some consulting work for Philip Morris a few years back and they had a chart that showed where the cost of every pack of cigarettes went to.  IIRC, at the time a pack was about $3 in Virginia, and of that only $1 went to Philip Morris, of which $0.30 was profit, the other $2 went to tobacco settlements, anti-smoking advertising, and taxes.

Don't forget that the totally stupid "war" on drugs costs US taxpayers $20 billion per year and does absolutely no good. At least 1/4th to 1/2 of that is spent trying to eradicate marijuana, which is impossible. I have two dead alcoholic parents and it really tees me off that an alcoholic can walk 1 block in almost any town in America and buy a legal drink. 20,000 people a year die in alcohol related traffic accidents, yet the federal government classifies marijuana as a schedule one drug with no medical value and continues to put cancer and aids patients in jail for trying to get a little pain relief from a substance that has never killed anyone.

One of the things Michigan is considering is an increase in SIN-taxes

Also the US government is not thinking of a serious tax on Tobacco.  Nation wide.

I post this without comment save to say the reason I can not qujit smoking is... I never started (And don't plan on it) and when it comes to Booze.. I prefer coffee.
or just plain water.

In other portions of this thread I see them speaking of legalizing MJ and taxing it.  Two comments here

1: There is already a Marijuana tax act on the books.. (Federal books)

2: I've seen this argument before.  And for several illegal drugs, not just MJ.  I do not have the needed facts to comment on the merits of the purposal however I can tell you that the folks who have done the research sound quite reasonable....  That said. I've heard many who "Sounded reasonable" when in fact they were smoking the issue (not the same as smoking weed) rather well.  (This is what's called an elaborate no comment)

I do think the issue needs further research by folks who do NOT have an agenda.. And that said. I do have an agenda on this issue so that's not me.

(If this post fails to explain my position: I wish to keep illegal drugs.. illegal)

John In Detroit said:

(If this post fails to explain my position: I wish to keep illegal drugs.. illegal)

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So what will you do if you get cancer, aids, glocoma, multiple sclorosis or some other disease that marijuana is so good at controlling the pain? How about your family or friends? Do you really want to watch them suffer because a perfectly safe medicine is illegal?

John In Detroit said:

One of the things Michigan is considering is an increase in SIN-taxes

Also the US government is not thinking of a serious tax on Tobacco.  Nation wide.

I post this without comment save to say the reason I can not qujit smoking is... I never started (And don't plan on it) and when it comes to Booze.. I prefer coffee.
or just plain water.

In other portions of this thread I see them speaking of legalizing MJ and taxing it.  Two comments here

1: There is already a Marijuana tax act on the books.. (Federal books)

2: I've seen this argument before.  And for several illegal drugs, not just MJ.  I do not have the needed facts to comment on the merits of the purposal however I can tell you that the folks who have done the research sound quite reasonable....   That said. I've heard many who "Sounded reasonable" when in fact they were smoking the issue (not the same as smoking weed) rather well.  (This is what's called an elaborate no comment)

I do think the issue needs further research by folks who do NOT have an agenda.. And that said. I do have an agenda on this issue so that's not me.

(If this post fails to explain my position: I wish to keep illegal drugs.. illegal)

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John, yours is a fair position.  Just to be clear, I don't' want to legalize all drugs, and I have no agenda as I am not a user (a nice belgian ale, or a smooth single malt would be my drug of choice).  My position is that MJ is a naturally occurring substance that has been in use for thousands of years (similar to alcohol).  It has not proven to cause the same health problems that alcohol and tobacco have, and it appears to have some medical benefit for some.  That said, and perhaps more importantly, about half the U.S. population has admitted to using or trying it, and about 20% of the population uses regularly.  If prevention and enforcement rules worked, the numbers wouldn't be that high (no pun intended).

Again, I don't think most people would advocate for the legalization of narcotics, but taking MJ laws off the books would allow enforcement and prevention agencies to focus on more problematic drugs like methamphetamines, opiates, et al.

The revenue benefits and job creation alone make me believe it should seriously be considered.

I meant to say the US government is NOW considering a tax on Tobacco..  (I typed NOT when I meant NOW)

I do not wish to argue MJ's alleged benefits or costs here in the forum.

For one thing, as a Professional Police Dispatcher I got to see the 'Down side" rather well.. and I"m not convinced of the,, well you might notice I said "Alleged benefits" just now.

WE need a study by someone I can trust.. To date, people have either been

1: People I'd not trust to do a proper study
2: People who do not have the means to do a proper study

And thus. I've not seen a study that was not biased.


IN some other areas.. I have seen good studies,  and I've seen some doozies too (in other areas)  Some of 'em, I kind of wonder what the people who wrote up the conclusions (And in a few cases these documents were then submitted to the FDA for approval of a drug). back to topic,  I have to wonder what the authors of that report were smoking, drinking or, otherwise using.. Cause it's for sure that their conclusions are NOT supported by the data they also reported.

Alas, the FDA never looked at the data, , Just the concussion (What you get when you jump head first into a conclusion) and though I do not (yet) seem to have a problem with the subsequent approved drug.  I know a few folks who do.

FWIW, Arkansas just instituted an additional $0.58 / pack tax on cigarettes - to fund a trauma center.

As an ex-smoker - I find some peoples' holier-than-thou "just quit smoking" comments asinine and uninformed.  I suspect that >75% of all tobacco users would quit, if they could.  It's not like giving up pancakes for Lent.  But, as with most "unpopular" activities, it's easy to jump on the bandwagon and criticize.

The US income tax was initially set up as a 1% "temporary" tax to help offset the costs of WWI.  One congressman who voted against it was quoted as saying "What's to prevent it from becoming permanent and growing to as much as 10%??".  I only wish . . ..  

John In Detroit said:

For one thing, as a Professional Police Dispatcher I got to see the 'Down side" rather well.. and I"m not convinced of the,, well you might notice I said "Alleged benefits" just now.

WE need a study by someone I can trust.. To date, people have either been

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The only downside to mj is the fact it is illegal. No one has ever died from using it. It helps sick people relieve their pain. I have seen that in spades, I used to work at a mj clinic.

You will never get a study by someone you can trust. Everyone has an opinion on the matter. There was the famous study in the early 70s sponsered by the Nixon administration that concluded that mj should be legal. The study was never published and completely squashed by Nixon. Here is a partial list of groups currently supporting medical mj:

American Medical Association - the largest physician group in the U.S.
The American College of Physicians - America's second largest physicians group
Leukemia & Lymphoma Society - America's second largest cancer charity.
American Academy of Family Physicians
American Public Health Association
American Psychiatric Association
American Nurses Association
British Medical Association
AIDS Action
American Academy of HIV Medicine
Lymphoma Foundation of America
Health Canada

Thirteen states and many countries have legalized medical mj since the passage of 215 in California in 1996 and I don't think that it was defeated in any state. If you would like to find out a lot more about this herb read here:

porscheracer said:

FWIW, Arkansas just instituted an additional $0.58 / pack tax on cigarettes - to fund a trauma center.

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IMHO Arkansas goofed.  While they were taking the time to pass legislation to raise the tax on cigaretts they should have made it $3.58 per pack or more as well as $5. on each cigar and package of Snuff.

The ark legislature knew exactly what they were doing.  Two years from now
(the ark legislature only meets every other year) they will discover that the sin tax will not be enough to pay for the trauma program so the will have to raise other taxes.  This seems to be a common pattern.  It is easy to get a program passed which is paid for by cigarette taxes.  77% of people do not smoke so they don't care how much the tax is, but when revenue falls short they never cancel a government program.
I am waiting for the day when some city or state has the b--- to outlaw the mfg, sale , transportation ,or possession of any tobacco product.  That will never happen because it is such a cash cow. 

tswms, You're absolutely right. There's no way tobacco can be outlawed because so many states and the federal government rely on that tax revenue. What would they tax next to make up for the loss of revenue - gas? And why are we financially punishing people who are doing something that is absolutely legal ? No, I don't smoke (used to but in 1981 I just quit), I think it's stupid for health as well as financial reasons but it is legal. And why is no one concerned about that other "sin tax," the one on alcohol?

Wendy