Will my truck tow it

;D

Yeah, I'm just not impressed with the F-150. It seems powerful in the commercials, but in reality it really has to wind it up to get up a decent hill with anything substantial behind it. Like I said, the brakes were really low quality. Minimal stopping ability, most likely due to undersizing.

My tow vehicle is a 1995 Ford Bronco which is a bobtailed F150 with a crew cab, and what remains of the cargo be topped over by fiberglass.   It runs a 5.0L Ford short block with a 3.73 rear end and a 4EOD transmission.   It is part time 4WD with a low range, but I never tow in 4WD.

The Ford tow rating was 6600 lbs.   I tow in the far west so I would have recommended to me that I restrict my trailers to a GVWR of no more than 5300 lbs.   My 23LV Prowler has a GVWR of 5300 lbs and a scaled weight of 4650 lbs with 20 gal. of fresh water. 

The truck has 95000 miles on it, about half under tow.   It gets on the average 10 mpg which can drop to 8 mpg in adverse conditions.

I tow in OD on low altitude flats.   Altitude, hills and head winds quickly force me into 3rd -- direct drive.  Climbing steep grades (6-9%) especially at altitude forces me to down shift.  The 4EOD 2nd gear is pitched high leaving a fair hole between it and 1st, so I do find myself locking into 1st on things like the San Rafael Swell in Utah or Siskyou Pass in Oregon.   I can wind up 30mph in 1st first cranking 3500 rpm or so.  Being lazy about shifting I tend to leave it there until I am well out of the steep sections.   That probably saves a  cup or tow of fuel as it avoids continual unlocking of the torque converter.   The down hill portions are executed in 1st or 2nd or even 3rd.   The Bronc is shod with big BFG LT31x10.5x15R T/A flotation tires run at 50 psi.    I am a religious maintainer of the four wheel disc brakes. 

I have run some 95,000 miles with no major maintenance on anything -- religious PM but no major stuff.  I use a Reese Dual Cam WD hitch system.  Laterally stability is rock solid even tho the truck has a 105" wheel base.  I feel the shock wave of passing panel vans and buses but no tendency toward yaw -- ever.

In short, a F150 class truck is a perfectly good tow vehicle under fairly strenuous towing hauling a trailer with a GVWR under 5500 lbs.    Heavier than that you want to go looking for 250s or even 450s. 

Carl:

>The Ford tow rating was 6600 lbs.  I tow in the far west so I would have recommended to me that I restrict my trailers to a GVWR of no more than 5300 lbs.  My 23LV Prowler has a GVWR of 5300 lbs and a scaled weight of 4650 lbs with 20 gal. of fresh water. <

That is about the sort of setup we had with the 1/2 ton 94 Chevy and our 2000 Westwind 23' 5er, which is 4500 lbs empty.  We had a small block 350 (which I assume is what you meant when you said short block, which is technically an engine without heads) that gave us the same sort of mileage.  Our Chev had a lot more kilometers on it however.  We too took our time up the hills doing about 70 kph in second gear rather than razz the guts out of the engine and/or take a chance of overheating it.  Hey, we were on vacation; what's the rush?

We too traveled in the mountains, in Alberta, BC, and sometimes into the western States.  Yes, the truck would do it, but it made it work pretty hard, and I went through two transmissions in the 5 years I owned it.  The first one soon after we bought it, and the second one just before we sold it.    The Chev 4L60E is known for being a little bit on the light duty side.  Hey, that is the same tranny they use in the 6 cyl Astro, and the Caprice when it was in production.

We couldn't afford to upgrade both truck and trailer at the same time, so we settled for the truck last year when we sold the Chev 1/2 ton and bought an off-lease GM duramax 1 ton crew/long.  That truck hardly knows the trailer is there, and it gives me 14 to 16 mpg US.  Quite a change.

>I have run some 95,000 miles with no major maintenance on anything -- religious PM but no major stuff. <

That is good.  I found that the rear diff in the Chev was beginning to make noise, which is part of what made me decide to move on.  245K (about 150,000 miles) was also getting up there, and I didn't see this unit pulling our trailer a whole lot longer without it costing me even more money.  The fellow who owned it before me also pulled a trailer, and I don't know how big his was, so the poor Chev had probably done its time.

Yes, a 1/2 ton will do it if you stay within its limits, but it is a strain on the poor beast.

Frank.

Yes, a 1/2 ton will do it if you stay within its limits, but it is a strain on the poor beast.

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Well yeah towing is a stressful application for most trucks.  But my trailer at 4650 loaded for the road is a somewhat lighter unit than your unit with a 4500 lb UVW.  I suspect you were at least 500 lbs heavier loaded for travel.

I do not mind allowing the engine to rev 3000-3500 rpm pulling a hill in lower gears.  It is easier on the drive train than lugging.  In fact, in pulling a hill, I drive by the tachometer not the speedometer.  Gas engines traditionally run 150K to overhaul.  The compression tests I have run every once in a while seem to verify my 5.0L will make that nicely. 

Light truck --  light trailer. 

I think I'm going to go with it, i will be mindfull with loading the truck and camper and i will get it weighed loaded and make sure its under 13.5 total weight.  I think all will be fine. Thanks for all the insight I will keep you posted how it does.

I wonder if any of the "backroad" engineers around here realize that the OEMs build a safety factor into their own towing capacities? I am also curious as to the method used to come up with the 10% flatland/20% mountain derating of the numbers produced by professional engineers with the backing of their paranoid legal departments. Many here seem to think they pull those numbers out of a hat.  Having worked for tier 1 suppliers, I can assure you that those are not random numbers produced by the marketing department.

fitterdude said:

I wonder if any of the "backroad" engineers around here realize that the OEMs build a safety factor into their own towing capacities? I am also curious as to the method used to come up with the 10% flatland/20% mountain derating of the numbers produced by professional engineers with the backing of their paranoid legal departments. Many here seem to think they pull those numbers out of a hat.  Having worked for tier 1 suppliers, I can assure you that those are not random numbers produced by the marketing department.

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The 10% is a rule of thumb based on loading of the tow vehicle beyond the standard of driver plus fluids (including the hitch mechanism), deterioration due to age, and variations in maintenance.   You do not like 10%?  Pick your number -- even 0 is a number.   Myself, I like the bit of head-space that 10% offers to folks judging the tow-ability of a trailer.

The 20% number for towing in the mountain and Pacific west is based on simple physics.   Normally aspirated internal combustion engines lose 3% of their rated HP for every 1,000 feet of altitude above sea level that they operate at.   Thus operating on the Colorado/Kaibab Plateaus at, say, Flagstaff which is 7000 feet, a gasoline fuel truck will lose 21% of its rated HP.  Add to that the long, long, high altitude passes with 6-9% grades that you find in the far west, even on interstates, and 20% seems almost loosey-goosey.  By the way, engines that are super- or turbo-charged lose only 1% per 1000 feet.  We recommend only the 10% rule of thumb factor for turbo-diesels.

In any case, in making a judgement, I routinely post all the numbers and reasons that go into the numbers so that folks can decide if they have better numbers.  My source for the basic tow rating is the compilation of mfr numbers found in Trailer Life's website.  We recommend comparing the numbers with trailer GVWRs or, better, actually scaled weights as ready for travel.

My overall philosophy is that tow ratings are like hunting grizzly bears.  There is no such thing as overkill, but there sure as hell is such a thing as underkill.

Carl L said:

My overall philosophy is that tow ratings are like hunting grizzly bears.  There is no such thing as overkill, but there sure as hell is such a thing as underkill.

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Very wel said.  I would like to add the consquences of UNDERKILL can very well be hazardous to ones health and safety along with anybody with or around them.

My overall philosophy is that tow ratings are like hunting grizzly bears.  There is no such thing as overkill, but there sure as hell is such a thing as underkill.

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We are admittedly conservative here in our towing recommendations. "We" being mostly Carl & I, but we have the active support of several other members too.

The car company engineers and lawyers likely have built in some safety factor, but who know how much? Or if it is consistent across models and configurations? I prefer not to bet on their margin, whatever it may be.  And there is another factor as well and that is the tendency of RV owners to underestimate their present and future loads.  THAT I can testify to from my own personal experience as well as from numerous feedback reports here over the years. I am confident that if a trailer owner starts out near the max tow capacity he will surely be well beyond it after a year or two of towing.

And finally, the car companies say nothing about how happy you will be with the performance at max load. Many owners have fairly high levels of expectation, based primarily on driving a lightly loaded passenger car. Light duty cars, minivans and even heavy duty pick-ups with small block engines will not meet those expectations.

RV Roamer said:

We are admittedly conservative here in our towing recommendations. "We" being mostly Carl & I, but we have the active support of several other members too.  

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That you do....and with good reason too.

RV Roamer said:

The car company engineers and lawyers likely have built in some safety factor, but who know how much? Or if it is consistent across models and configurations? I prefer not to bet on their margin, whatever it may be. 

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No kidding.  This is the safety of our loved ones were talking about here.  And the safety of everyone else on the road. 

I posted on a similar thread last summer that my wife and I were back from a weekend in Cloudcroft (9000').  The 2nd day at the campground, the biggest fifth wheel I've ever seen in my life pulled in.  Three axles, 40' +, three huge slide outs...you get the picture.  It had to cut across a campsite because it was too long to negotiate the turn in the campground....and it was towed by an F250.  A Super Duty Diesel, granted, but an F250!.  If the trailer was an ounce under 18K, I'd be seriously surprised. 

Was he within towing specs on the truck?  If he was, it was extremely marginal.  A couple of extra flies in the window and he would be overweight.  Remember, this is 9000' up.  The road down to Alamogordo is 16 miles long, and ends up at 4000'.  You do the math for the grade.  If I saw this guy bearing down on me from behind, I would get out of his way ASAP.  Then I would stop, go back to my trailer, and change my shorts.

Look, if folks insist on towing right at the truck's limits, nobody can stop you.  And yes, you may get away with it for decades as long as nothing goes wrong.  But the Grizzly Bear metaphor holds true....overkill is a good thing.  Too many variables that you can encounter on the road.

As for me, I'm 4200 lbs under the GCWR of my truck with a fully loaded fiver...even after a big lunch.  I take it to 65 on the highway, set the cruise, and enjoy the ride.  I don't even feel crosswinds under 30 MPH.  And in a sudden stop scenario, no need to panic.  Well.....the beer in the fridge may shift a bit, but I can live with that.

If you want a large trailer, get a large truck...even if you have to buy it used instead of new.  Approach matching your truck to your trailer methodically, and all will be well.  Arrive alive and have fun.

I learned my trailer conservatism the hard way - an accident. A seemingly minor cause - a low shoulder on a curve on a two lane road. The trailer wheels dropped off and tried to climb back on again and all heck broke loose. The tow vehicle (a Cadillac sedan) wasn't technically overloaded, but with its soft air assist suspension and cushy ride, it was a mediocre tow vehicle and we jackknifed and tipped the trailer over. The Caddy did fine going straight down the road, but lost its cool completely when the tail started wagging the dog. We didn't have a chance of recovering.  Thank heavens there was no oncoming traffic!

On another occasion, this time with a heavy duty tow vehicle and an 11,000 lb fifth wheel that was well matched to the trailer, an oblivious lady pulled out from a side road less than 100 feet from us while we were traveling at 55 mph.  I was sure we were going to hit her broadside, killing her and likely causing serious damage and injury to us as well. But with that rig I was able to swerve around her, go off the road into a broad ditch, and bring the whole rig to a controlled stop while still remaining upright. Night and day difference in emergency handling from my previous experience. I am convinced that having a well matched rig saved that lady's life as well as our own.

I'd like to add an experience I had with an F-150, without taking away from the authors question.
I purchased an '09 Starcraft Starstream a few months back. It's a 24 ft. trailer with a dry weight of 4400 lbs. I told the dealer I wanted to see how it pulled before I laid down the green.  He said to come on down, he'll get it hooked up and we'll go for a ride. I drove my '07 Dodge Ram 1500 down expecting to get it hooked up. When I arrived, he had it hooked up to his personal '06 F-150. Off we went with me riding shotgun. The Ford was great around town under 45mph. We got on the highway, at 65mph that 5.4L was turning a hair over 3000 rpm and refused to down shift. The trailer was pulling great, the truck seemed to be straining with a 4,500lb. TT. My Dodge is relatively the same in specs, so I became a little nervous. Anyway, bought it and two months later no problems. The HEMI is a monster. The Dodge 1500 feels like 2500 compared to the Ford. I know folks like Papa have had good luck with the Ford, I just think Badfx4 may be in for an unpleasant experience. I'm sure ford put's out a good truck, I'll just never buy one after this experience.

Just as long as you are within the weight limits, use the trailer GVWR not empty weight when figuring weight limits, you should be alright.  Most any truck will pull almost anything one can hook on to it but it is the stopping and handling that can kill.

You can't really generalize about trucks from a couple of examples, e.g. Dodge will do it and Ford won't, or "my F150 works so yours will too". There are hundreds of different pick-up "configurations", combinations of engine, rear axle, wheel size, transmission gearing, etc. that affect how well any given truck can tow a given size/weight. Two seemingly identical F150's could easily be night and day difference in performance - just a glance at the trailer towing tables will show that. The tow capacity can easily vary by 2-3 thousand pounds with factors that most people never even consider.  And  the same applies to Dodge and Chevy/GMC.

Amen to that Gary

Amen indeed. 

The Trailer Life listings for the 2008 Ford F150 pickup trucks give tow ratings which range from 2300 lbs to 9500 lbs for conventional towing, and from 5200 lbs to 11,000 lbs for fifth wheel towing.

Those numbers depend on a truck's:

Engine;
Transmission type;
Rear end ratio;
2WD or 4WD;
Cab configuation;
Bed length;
Wheel and tire size;
Towing mode -- conventional or 5th wheel.

When a person says "I have a F150 and it pulls my trailer just fine", he is making a statement about a truck model with 82 different tow ratings that depend on a combination of the above-listed factors.   

And then there is the actual weight of the trailer as loaded, and the altitude above sea level of the topography it is towed in. 

Furthermore, there is also the thought what the guy is really saying is:  "I have an F150 and I have gotten away with pulling my trailer with it so far."    After all the little car in the video at the top of this Forum section got away with pulling his trailer -- until he got to that grade.   ;D

That is why I like numbers -- they give a person something to form judgements without having to invest in the wrong trailer/truck to find out the hard way.

Carl
I've got to know if you actually counted them. ;D

BTW I just came from the Ford dealer this morning getting my oil changed and looked at the 09 F-150 propaganda and the F-150 tow ratings for 09 go clear up to 11,300 lbs now. If anyone gets close to a dealer they have a DVD they give out for advertisement about pickups that is pretty interesting.

I often wonder when some says I can pull my trailer with my F-150, or any other truck, with no problems but fails to give the GVWR of the vehicles.  Is he within weight limits or has he just been lucky that he hasn't cause damage to himself or others that happen have the misfortune of being in the area when luck run out.

The only way to know for sure is to get it weighed and know your weight limits and stay within them.

rbell said:

Carl
I've got to know if you actually counted them. ;D

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Yup.