Tow rating vs. GCVWR

[ramcneal]

I've got question that I've not seen answered anywhere. I've been looking at several forums.

The specific example is a Dodge 2500, but from what I've seen both Ford and GMC are the same. Dodge indicates the towing capacity is 15k, yet the GCVW is 20k. Now, I recently went down and weighed my 2500 (Crew Cab, short bed, diesel) on a certified scale. The truck weighs 7,040 which is right around the curb weight I expected to see based on my reading. That means if you pull a full load you're over by 2k lbs. Okay, you might be able to get a regular cab, short bed, with the smallest gas engine to weigh around 5k or just over, but you certainly wouldn't attempt to pull 15k pounds. My question is; how do the manufactures get away with this crap. Either the towing capacity should be listed at 13k or the GCWR should be 22k, at least to my way of thinking.

[Mexray]

You're right, they all play those 'numbers' games with the specs...and it makes it all the more confusing...and add to that, that the usual TV salesman doesn't even come close to knowing these numbers or what they mean...IMHO!

Ford does it a bit different with their towing guide, by listing the GCVW and then listing the 'Maximum Loaded Trailer Weight' for the different configurations, etc...

In my patricular case:

2001 Ford Excursion, V-10, 4x4, auto trans, 3.73 axle ratio, stock tire size...Trailer, 28 ft airstream.

Their towing guide lists as follows:

17,000 - GCWR lbs........Max Loaded Tlr Wt - 9,600 lbs  (which would be 7,400 lbs for the loaded TV, tongue wt, etc)

Our 'actual' numbers from a CAT scale, full fuel load, 1/4 water in trailer, and hooked up with Weight Dist. type hitch.

14,040 - GCWR lbs.............Loaded Tlr Wt - 5560 lbs...........(Tow Vehicle, tongue wt, etc - 8,480 lbs)

by virtue of the 8,480 TV weight, our Max allowable loaded trailer wt would then be 8,520 lbs (8,480+8,520=17,000)...also, according to their Spec sheet, the GVWR is 8,900 lbs, and the unloaded curb wt is 7,190 lbs....also in the Spec sheets, an 11,000 lbs number is listed as 'Maximum Towing Capacity', what ever that is...?

At our TV's 'hitched' up weight of 8,480 lbs, we're getting real close that that 8,900 GVWR, especially if we add more people and 'stuff' in the rear of the TV!...A person could quickly get into a real 'overloaded' condition if not careful...and our Trailer only weighs 5,560 lbs!!!!

The TV's Specs make it capable of quite a bit more 'load', but if in an accident, etc., liability and insurance coverage really come into play...

Welcome to the 'Real' world...

[RV Roamer]

Ramcneal,
My experience is that the Tow capacity tracks correctly with the GCVWR, if you use the correct configuration for the truck in question. GCVWR & Tow capacity varies dramatically with things like engine, transmission, wheelbase, rear axle type, 4wd vs 2wd, tires, etc.   The Dodge tow capacity calculation comes right off the GCVWR, so I don't see how it could be anything but accurate - they show the numbers on the web site.

http://www.dodge.com/hostc/towing/guide.do

If you get a tow rating from a brochure or tv commercial, it won't have all the details. Typically it gives the tow capacity of the max available configuration. I agree that number is useless, but it IS just a sales document. You have to get to the actual specs to be sure.

[ramcneal]

Ramcneal,
My experience is that the Tow capacity tracks correctly with the GCVWR, if you use the correct configuration for the truck in question. GCVWR & Tow capacity varies dramatically with things like engine, transmission, wheelbase, rear axle type, 4wd vs 2wd, tires, etc.   The Dodge tow capacity calculation comes right off the GCVWR, so I don't see how it could be anything but accurate - they show the numbers on the web site.

http://www.dodge.com/hostc/towing/guide.do

Thanks for the link. I finally found that on Dodge's site, but it wasn't where I expected to find it. I looked at the 2500/3500 trucks and selected the specifications page and didn't find anything more specific. In fact, just before posting this message I revisited the site and now noticed the towing capacity has changed yet again. Dodge claims a 2500 can tow up to 15,650lbs (when properly equipped), yet the GCWR is still 20,000lbs.  Grrr.. When they advertise numbers like that I would like to see the manufactures also state what a properly equipped vehicle consists of.

If one uses the towing guide from the link provided there isn't a configuration available that gets anywhere near 15,650. I'm sure Ford and GMC are exactly the same, it just seems dishonest to me.

[RV Roamer]

Dodge claims a 2500 can tow up to 15,650lbs (when properly equipped), yet the GCWR is still 20,000lbs.  Grrr.. When they advertise numbers like that I would like to see the manufactures also state what a properly equipped vehicle consists of.

I must be reading a different page than you are. The largest tow capacity I can find is 13,250 and the 20k GCVWR minus a curb weight of 6600 (give or take a few lbs) supports that.  Where is it that you see a claimed 15k tow capacity?  The tow guide doesn't claim that, butit would not surprise me if some other Dodge sales brochure did so.

There are 3500's that go to 24,000 GCVWR.

[ramcneal]

I must be reading a different page than you are. The largest tow capacity I can find is 13,250 and the 20k GCVWR minus a curb weight of 6600 (give or take a few lbs) supports that.  Where is it that you see a claimed 15k tow capacity?  The tow guide doesn't claim that, butit would not surprise me if some other Dodge sales brochure did so.

There are 3500's that go to 24,000 GCVWR.

http://www.dodge.com/en/2009/ram_2500_3500/capability/towing_payload/

This page is accessed by first selecting a vehicle 2500/3500 and then under specifications selecting towing and payload. The page pops up showing a 2500 with a maximum towing capacity of 15,650[1]

[1] When properly equipped.

The damn page doesn't list anywhere what properly equipped means though.

I just love the numbers game they play. Again "they" being Dodge, Ford, and GMC. The towing guide for a 3500 shows a GVWR of either 10,100 or 12,200 depending on the rear axle ratio. Nothing to due with safety here, just warrantee work on the manufacturers part.

[Carl L]

And that is why I stick with listed tow ratings -- Trailer Life tables or mfr tables -- and a rule of thumb 10% safety factor.  Combined with use of trailer GVWR, as opposed to unladen/base weight, there should be enough headroom to handle the matter.   Playing with GCVWRs can drive a person nuts with the bookkeeping.   Tow ratings seem to be the most consistent and widely available number.

The only other matter of consideration would be rear axle GAWR with 5th wheel units owing to their heavy pin weight.

[ramcneal]

And that is why I stick with listed tow ratings -- Trailer Life tables or mfr tables -- and a rule of thumb 10% safety factor.  Combined with use of trailer GVWR, as opposed to unladen/base weight, there should be enough headroom to handle the matter.   Playing with GCVWRs can drive a person nuts with the bookkeeping.   Tow ratings seem to be the most consistent and widely available number.

The only other matter of consideration would be rear axle GAWR with 5th wheel units owing to their heavy pin weight.

First, I agree completely with the sentiment of being safe. I just started down this path and found I ended up having more questions then those that I answered. Another example, which I believe I've posted about in this forum. Trailer Life tables don't appear to be valid for Dodge trucks towing 5th wheels. Both the Ford and GMC tables list two different values for towing capacity. The Dodge table only lists one and it "appears" to be for conventional towing. I saw "appears" to be based solely on comparison of 3/4 ton trucks by each manufacturer. Ford and GMC are around 12.5k for conventional and 15k for 5th wheel. The Dodge table only shows 12.5k which leads me to believe the value is for conventional towing.

Now that someone pointed out the Dodge towing guide I feel much better as I can find the manufacturers values for my truck. I had the GVWR (9,000lbs) with the GAWR (6,000lbs), but couldn't find the towing capacity that I felt I could trust.

[RV Roamer]

Thanks for the link. I don't know where they got that big number either and their Towing Guide does not substantiate it.

I trust the GCWR and my own arithmetic more than somebody else's towing tables. Tariler Life has made msitakes in the past too.

[ramcneal]

Thanks for the link. I don't know where they got that big number either and their Towing Guide does not substantiate it.

I trust the GCWR and my own arithmetic more than somebody else's towing tables. Tariler Life has made msitakes in the past too.

After poking around some more with the towing guide I begin to see a glimmer of what's going on. That 15,650lbs capacity has the disclaimer of when properly equipped. So, a 2500 short bed, crew cab, diesel has a GVWR of 9,000lbs. Now, a 3500 short bed, crew cab, diesel has a GVWR of 10,100. The difference between those two trucks: badges, front brakes are 13 hundredths of an inch thicker (forget where I read that), and stiffer rear springs. The axles are the same, the frame is the same. So, thicker brakes would in theory handle heat build up better, but not stop any better because the surface area remains the same. Stiffer springs would obviously handle the weight better. So, if a 2500 had the exhaust brake and air bags added it would probably be the equivalent of the 3500 I mentioned.

So, Dodge knows it's possible to upgrade a 2500 to tow heaver loads and do so safely (at least that how I read their claim), but they just don't tell anyone how. From a marketing point of view that makes sense because they don't wish to cannibalize the sales of the 3500. It would be too easy for someone to buy a 2500, decide they need more towing capacity and instead of trading the truck in on a 3500 go out and purchase some parts from some enterprising 3rd party and install them for quite a bit less than the trade-in loss. There's probably legal reasons as well, read Cover Your Ass here not transportation laws.

All very interesting.

[Ron]

One important point here is that no matter what modifications are made the GVWR is not increased unless you can get the manufacturer to provide a new sticker reflecting the change in GVWR as well as the required documents to support the change.  I find it very doubtful that an individual would want to bear the costs for the engineering required to confirm and document the increase.  If you take a 1500 put new drive train, engine, springs and air bags your GVWR remains the same as the manufacturer declared it to be.

[ramcneal]

One important point here is that no matter what modifications are made the GVWR is not increased unless you can get the manufacturer to provide a new sticker reflecting the change in GVWR as well as the required documents to support the change.  I find it very doubtful that an individual would want to bear the costs for the engineering required to confirm and document the increase.  If you take a 1500 put new drive train, engine, springs and air bags your GVWR remains the same as the manufacturer declared it to be.

I agree and didn't mean to imply otherwise. I was just pointing out how one truck, the 2500, with some possible modifications wouldn't be much different than the SRW 3500 which as a 2100lbs higher GVWR. This comparison was meant to show that Dodge probably knows how it could be done safely. How else could they possibly claim a 15,650lbs towing capacity for a 2500 (when properly equipped). I would prefer that all manufactures be honest with their numbers, but like horse power ratings it's a shell game.

I'm putting air bags and an exhaust brake on my 2500, not to increase my payload or towing capacities, but to increase the safety margin and piece of mind.

[Katuzo]

One important point here is that no matter what modifications are made the GVWR is not increased unless you can get the manufacturer to provide a new sticker reflecting the change in GVWR as well as the required documents to support the change.  I find it very doubtful that an individual would want to bear the costs for the engineering required to confirm and document the increase.  If you take a 1500 put new drive train, engine, springs and air bags your GVWR remains the same as the manufacturer declared it to be.

If you get pulled over, and your trailer/5th wheeler is heavier than the truck is rated for, can you get fined? Also would you be criminal negligence if you were involved in an accident?

[RV Roamer]

If you get pulled over, and your trailer/5th wheeler is heavier than the truck is rated for, can you get fined?

That would depend on the laws of the state you were in. In many (most?) states, only commercial vehicles are subject to GVWR and GCWR limits.

would you be criminal negligence if you were involved in an accident?

Again, criminal negligence would depend on the exact wording of state laws and the situation. The distinction between "reckless endangerment" and "criminal negligence" depends on a host of factors too complex to discuss here (and I'm no lawyer).   However, exceeding the tow vehicle's rated capacity generates lots of ammunition for civil liability (tort) if you are involved in an accident that could in any conceivable way be attributed to some effect of towing. And since towing clearly effects your ability to stop and maneuver, it is almost surely going to be relevant in any accident.

Wiki - Criminal Negligence

[Ron]

If you get pulled over, and your trailer/5th wheeler is heavier than the truck is rated for, can you get fined? Also would you be criminal negligence if you were involved in an accident?

Why even take a chance since even if one doesn't get caught, to exceed the weight ratings will expose the overweight rigs occupants as well as anyone unfortunate enough to be around to safety risks.  FWIW I am personally aware of at least two indeviduals that weighed and found overweight and in one case they had to arrange for a larger truck to come pull the trailer in and they were ticketed.  I am not sure what the result of the other case was other than they did get a ticket.  I have also seen a guy pulled over and as we went by it looked like they were positioning portable scales.

[ramcneal]

Why even take a chance since even if one doesn't get caught, to exceed the weight ratings will expose the overweight rigs occupants as well as anyone unfortunate enough to be around to safety risks.  FWIW I am personally aware of at least two indeviduals that weighed and found overweight and in one case they had to arrange for a larger truck to come pull the trailer in and they were ticketed.  I am not sure what the result of the other case was other than they did get a ticket.  I have also seen a guy pulled over and as we went by it looked like they were positioning portable scales.

I'm curious for more information here. In each case did the truck look to be overweight? e.g. A 1/2 ton truck pulling a 35+' 5th wheel. Or was it something like one of the hotshoters with a 3500, but towing 3 heavy looking cars that looked okay, but you could probably guess it was overweight.

[Ron]

I have no idea what prompted them to be pulled over.  However one was a Ford-250 pulling a three axle 5ver.  So it was obvious he was risking the safety of everyone around him.

[cobb1925]

We are brand new at RVing and want to make sure that when we purchase a 5th wheel trailer it can be safely towed by our truck a 2001 Dodge QC, 4wd, longbed, diesel with auto and 3.55 rear end. The Dodge specs state a max trailer weight of 9450 lbs. It looks to me like practically all 5th wheel trailers when loaded are too heavy for my truck. My question is why does the gearing and transmission make such a difference?

[RV Roamer]

Without getting too deeply into powertrain engineering, the rear axle ratio determines how far the truck actually moves for every turn of the engine crankshaft. A lower number means the truck moves further, so the engine has to work harder.

The transmission has its own set of gears and can have a similar effect, though the top gear rations in most transmissions are pretty much the same. The major factor with a transmission is its capability to handle the heavy stresses of towing without failing. Light duty car transmissions simply won't last long under heavy loads, so they can become a limit on both tow capacity and GVWR if used in a truck. Most pick-ups function more as personal transport than heavy haulers, so manufacturers sometimes use a less expensive, light duty transmission in models that are configured more for highway driving than working. I don't know if that is the case with your particular model - I suspect not since it has 4WD - but that is often a factor.

[Carl L]

Looking at the Trailer Life tables on the 2001 Dodges with the 5.9 TD,  it certainly appears that the combination of the 4 speed auto and the 3.55:1 rear axle gets severely down-rated compared with the 5 or 6 speed manual transmissions.   That would seem to mean that Dodge had issues with strength of that 2001 4-speed auto.  The manuals received little or no discount with the 3.55 nor the auto with the 4.10.

[HDDrvr]

Wouldn't the simplest solution to determine how much trailer weight a TV can handle is to weight the TV, estimate how much more weight -- people, gear, etc.-- you will add to the TV when towing and subtract that from the TV's GCWR? Then look for a trailer that has a GVW equal or less than the number arrived at above.

[Carl L]

Well yes.  Myself I find it simpler and quicker to look up the tow rating in a Trailer Life table or on the mfr's website.   Then all one need to do is use the trailer GVWR which is in mfr specs or on the unit's DOT plate.

[Tino]

Hi.
What is a Trailer Life table, and where do I find one?
Thank you in advance.
Tino.

[Tom]

That would be Trailer Life Tow Ratings table. Here's the link (scroll down the page):

http://www.trailerlife.com/vehicles.cfm

[Carl L]

Trailer Life has redone their website.  They have made the tables harder to find. 

 Here is a direct link:    http://www.trailerlife.com/output.cfm?id=42175