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Author Topic: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)  (Read 18462 times)

John Canfield

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Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« on: February 05, 2009, 04:52:07 PM »
We are currently in the waiting lounge at Freightliner Tolleson (Phoenix) while we are getting some work done on the Horizon.  They did an M2 maintenance, generator service, and are in the middle of changing out the filler necks.

The old filler necks have a vent tube of 1/2" diameter, the new necks have a vent tube diameter of 7/8".  One unforeseen problem that came up late today was how do you couple a 7/8" hose barb to a 1/2" hose barb on the tank.  Neither the tech nor I realized that Freightliner was to supply an adapter, so that was just ordered.  I have no idea where parts come from (please, not Gaffney) so it will be interesting to see what happens.

The tech has replaced two fuel tanks in this campaign, but we are apparently the first training opportunity for the filler neck change-out  :P

These guys are really, really good here, so I'm sure they will take good care of us.

Update: 5PM MST:

The adapters will be delivered at noon tomorrow  ;D.  The guys will finish up everything possible in the morning while they wait on the parts.  So we need to have the coach ready to go at 7AM again  - oh well...

Update: Friday, 2/6/09 - 3 PM MST:


The 'adapters' as delivered late morning were a 5/8" male pipe thread to hose barb and a 1" male pipe thread to hose barb.  What was missing was a 1" to 5/8" coupler/adapter, so Freightliner had to chase around for two adapters.  The left side filler neck was installed without too much trouble, but the right side caused much grief.  The new filler neck made a turn the wrong way and the tech had to cut the last several inches of the pipe off so the hose from the tank would line up with the new filler neck.  He should be finished up within the hour - looks like we'll spend another night here since it is getting late  ::)

Update: Friday, 2/6/09 - 5 PM MST:

Hey we're done.. too late to go anywhere, we'll leave in the morning.  Jacks down, slides out. 

Uh-oh - there is a terrible noise when I put out the left-hand slide.  Thank goodness Jane said STOP!  The tech (a really, really good and competent tech) has fastened some sheet metal together that shouldn't have been and the slide moving out has caused some minor damage to some underlying sheet metal and square tubing on the inside of the fiberglass.  Hard to explain - see the picture. 

Stuff happens.

We're here for another three wonderful days.  At least it's free camping.
« Last Edit: February 06, 2009, 07:13:14 PM by John Canfield »
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Ron

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #1 on: February 05, 2009, 09:19:54 PM »
I am sure they will do a good job for you John.  Bet it will be nice having the new filler necks.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #2 on: February 06, 2009, 04:08:49 PM »
-bump- Original post updated
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #3 on: February 06, 2009, 07:14:38 PM »
-bump- Original post updated, yet again.  This time it's not good news  :-\
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Tom

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #4 on: February 06, 2009, 08:42:53 PM »
A big ouch John. Hope they get it fixed promptly.
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Ron

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #5 on: February 06, 2009, 09:25:36 PM »
Sorry to hear of the ouch.  Hope they can fix it promptly and properly.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #6 on: February 07, 2009, 09:57:53 AM »
John,

Many of us are watching your experience with great interest.  Please post a summary once it is completed with time, cost, problems, etc.
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John Canfield

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #7 on: February 07, 2009, 10:26:58 AM »
Rex - I have some pictures to Photoshop and I need to get a few from my phone and then I'll probably create a web page.

At this point I am completely unsure of how effective the 'fix' will be since the vent is still limited to 1/2" ID at the tank and out maybe a foot or so.  What actually was needed is the new tank with the 7/8" vent out the top and the new filler necks with the larger vents, but I might be pleasantly surprised at my next fueling - we'll just have to wait and see.

If we still have the same fuel filling issues as before, then lots of time and money have been wasted.  The techs here must have put in at least 10 man-hours of labor since they ran into so many fit problems and the lack of parts and apparently the lack of any written instructions.  Now, there is minor damage to repair by the Freightliner body shop on top of everything else.

The pioneers are always the ones with the arrows in their back  ::)
--John
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #8 on: February 07, 2009, 10:30:15 AM »
Thanks for the interesting updates John.  Did you drive all the way to Phoenix just for your service at this particular dealer?
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #9 on: February 07, 2009, 11:36:12 AM »
Well, kinda-sorta.  Freightliner in Tolleson is good enough to find excuses to head their way.  We were planning on hooking up with friends in the Yuma area, Las Cruces, and hanging out in southern Arizona to miss some of the Texas winter (and to exercise the coach.)  There is also the bonus of a pretty good Cummins dealer only a couple of miles away, a Costco just up the road, and all of the big box shopping you could want within a five mile radius.

There are three techs dedicated to strictly motorhome work, so they have a lot of experience.  Also, when you mention you want an M1, M2, or M3 service, the service writer doesn't look at you with a puzzled expression on their face (like Rex's experience with a Freightliner dealer in Denver!)
--John
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Cliff Zimmerman

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #10 on: February 07, 2009, 04:12:19 PM »
John: That's a real bummer! Sorry to hear of the problem. As you know, those folks are probably the best service center in the country. If and when I need some special care I'll return to them in a heart beat.
All is going well here, so if all possible we will see you in Yuma.
Hang in there...
Cliff Zimmerman
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John Canfield

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #11 on: February 09, 2009, 03:28:00 PM »
Yea!  Five nights of "free" camping is finally over!  Freightliner repaired the minor damage reasonably well first thing today - it's not quite where I would like it, so I'll spend more time on it when we return home.

We tried the new filler necks this morning and it's too soon to tell if the fix was a major success, minor success, or made no difference.  We needed 48 gallons of fuel and with a truck pump nozzle at its lowest setting, it clicked off at 33 gallons pumped.  I think I could get the last 15 gallons in a little faster than before, but time will tell.
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John Canfield

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2009, 06:34:18 PM »
Web page created for the project.
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Jeff

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2009, 07:17:47 PM »
Quite an experience for 5 days of free camping. ;D ;D

Ron

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2009, 08:02:52 PM »
Hope the filler mod works as you hope.  Glad you got it done.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #15 on: February 21, 2009, 02:01:23 PM »
We had fueling experience #2 yesterday.  We took on a total of 79 gallons at the Flying J RV pumps (small nozzle.)  With the pump set to its highest fuel delivery rate, it clicked off at 64 gallons pumped.  I'm almost positive this is quite a bit better - previously the pump would have clicked off about 20-25 gallons shy, and I don't think I could have used this high of a delivery rate.

The last 15 gallons seemed to go in quite a bit faster as well.  Without a doubt, the new filler necks have made quite an improvement.  I'm sorry I wasn't a candidate for the improved fuel tank as well - the new filler necks plus the improved tank (better venting) would make filling a very fast and easy process.

It is a very good feeling to have our coach squared away and shipshape  8)
--John
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Ron

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #16 on: February 21, 2009, 02:26:06 PM »
Good to hear you have a good improvement in filling with fuel.  Makes it much easier.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #17 on: February 21, 2009, 05:23:02 PM »
Does your new filler neck, stop the fuel from spilling out if it is too full?
On our 99 windsport, if I fill it right to the top it spills fuel out a little.

It is almost like you are peeing up hill the way the tank is.

Any thoughts?

Jason
« Last Edit: February 21, 2009, 08:48:22 PM by Tom »

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #18 on: February 21, 2009, 10:06:27 PM »
Does your new filler neck, stop the fuel from spilling out if it is too full?

There is no fuel spillage when the nozzle clicks off automatically.  When I sneak the last few gallons in, I certainly can (and have) get some fuel running out.
--John
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Harry B

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #19 on: February 22, 2009, 12:41:54 AM »
Hi John,

I am glad to read that the filler mod seems to work to some extend. Like you , I had some serious doubt that it would make any improvement at all being that the vent line was brought right back to 5/8" entering the tank.  I am in the process of tackling this problem as well as you probably gathered from previous posts but I got side tracked by some other issues.

I hope the damage to your coach was made right by Freightliner. I guess this was a case of doing the job to well.
Harry - (Central FL)

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FrontrangeRVer

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #20 on: February 22, 2009, 07:46:58 AM »
John.....not bad for a $1,000 fix!   ;)
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #21 on: February 22, 2009, 08:26:08 AM »
I hope the damage to your coach was made right by Freightliner. I guess this was a case of doing the job to well.

Harry - yeah - they repaired it reasonably well, but I need to give it more TLC.  The repair isn't quite 'there.'

Mark - pretty difficult to cost-justify the project  :P



Edit to correct spelling...
« Last Edit: February 22, 2009, 02:53:59 PM by John Canfield »
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kevin

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #22 on: February 22, 2009, 11:43:41 AM »
do you know if the vent location is in the top of the tank or right beside the fill tube?kevin
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #23 on: February 22, 2009, 02:51:54 PM »
do you know if the vent location is in the top of the tank or right beside the fill tube?kevin

My vent is on the side near the top of the tank (not to mention it is 1/2.")  New tanks have a 7/8" vent coming out of the tank top.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #24 on: February 22, 2009, 05:46:11 PM »
Do you have more than one vent plug on top? It seems to me that I saw several on the Freightliner chassis at the shows. If there are more than one you might parallel several into a manifold. Just one more would give you more than the 5/8".

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #25 on: February 22, 2009, 08:05:05 PM »
Hey John,

A question about the fill ups you did before the repair.  When you were filling the tank before and the fuel handle would shut off, what did the fuel gauge read?  Did the gauge read full, or did you show room in the tank on the gauge?  Also, when you were filling the tank did the fuel ever rise to the mouth of the filler tube, or was it the foaming fuel that caused the shut off? 

I have been checking the fills on my rig lately, and it has always filled the same.  It clicks off, then I click it back on slow till it shuts off again.  Then I can usually see the fuel in the filler neck.  The gauge will always rest on the full line on the gauge.  But you have got me wondering if there was still room in the tank, or if it is really full.  The reason that I question that is that I ran the tank down farther than I usually do the last few fills.  When the needle on the gauge would just touch the red warning level on the 1/8 remaining part of the gauge, I would take on about 60 gallons to bring the gauge back to full.  It would also pretty closely match the gallons used on the VMSpc display.  However, that would mean that the tank should still have about 30 gallons + or - remaining in the tank.  Could that be right?  That is what has got me wondering if the tank had been consistently under filled, or does it just have a large low end reserve?  The tank is susposed to be a 90 gallon tank.   

Your thoughts?? 

Sarge
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #26 on: February 22, 2009, 10:58:46 PM »
Do you have more than one vent plug on top?

Wayne - there are two

Hey John,

A question about the fill ups you did before the repair.  When you were filling the tank before and the fuel handle would shut off, what did the fuel gauge read?  Did the gauge read full, or did you show room in the tank on the gauge?  Also, when you were filling the tank did the fuel ever rise to the mouth of the filler tube, or was it the foaming fuel that caused the shut off? 

I have been checking the fills on my rig lately, and it has always filled the same.  It clicks off, then I click it back on slow till it shuts off again.  Then I can usually see the fuel in the filler neck.  The gauge will always rest on the full line on the gauge.  But you have got me wondering if there was still room in the tank, or if it is really full. ....

Sarge - different characteristics.  When my pump clicks off, the analog (Freightliner) fuel gauge will always read short of full.  When I trickle in the fast few gallons and I see fuel standing in the filler neck, we are plumb full.  The Freightliner gauge is reading full and I reset VMSpc to a full tank of fuel.

My analog fuel gauge is not linear or accurate except while indicating completely full.  When the needle is pointing to 1/2 tank, I have 60 gallons according to VMSpc.  At 1/4 tank, I have about 30 gallons remaining.  When my information center alarms low fuel, I discovered that 2% fuel remaining (should be 2 gallons) actually means about 12 gallons.

The big unknown is usable fuel - it's been a long time since I have flown, but I believe the fuel tanks on aircraft are calibrated in usable fuel and not gross tank capacity.  It would be nice if the Freightliner gauge was calibrated accurately and the warning actually indicated remaining usable fuel.
--John
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SargeW

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #27 on: February 23, 2009, 10:35:53 AM »
That's great info John, thanks.  It was a little surprising to see the needle touching the red area on the dash gauge, but the VMSpc still showing 30 gallons :o  Now that's a heck of a reserve ::)  But it does sound like I am getting a full fill, so that makes me feel better.  I can deal with the other part.  One way I thought of testing was to try to start the generator.  I believe the fuel pick up for the generator sits up higher in the tank than the engine pick up. If it starts and runs there must be sufficient fuel.  Does that make sense to you?
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #28 on: February 23, 2009, 11:19:12 AM »
Fuel gauges are often unreliable.  We use the odometer miles traveled to determine when to refuel.

The generator pickup tube is between 1/4 and 1/3 of a tank, so if the generator starts and runs, you have at least that much fuel.  However, if the fuel level is below the pickup for the generator, you'll run the fuel line dry and may have problems starting it later on.  I don't recommend that procedure for checking your low fuel level.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #29 on: February 23, 2009, 02:01:34 PM »
Oops..... good point....
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #30 on: February 23, 2009, 03:42:24 PM »
Good point, Ned.

I have run my genny out of fuel before and it was about at the 25 gallon level -+.  Priming it was easy (on my Onan Quiet Diesel 7.5, anyway) - you simply hold down the start/stop switch in the stop position for a couple of minutes.  The fuel pump runs and the engine self-bleeds.

Tom & Ned will appreciate this boating story.. we closed on our sailboat and we had some friends on board to help deliver the boat from Miami to Cape Canaveral.  We loaded the boat with provisions, clothes, etc.  Everybody was excited and ready to go. I started the engine to let it warm up while we got ready to cast off on our maiden voyage;  after a few minutes the engine died much to everybody's surprise.

The former owner had shut the fuel switch off before he left the boat.  I ran the stinker out of fuel the very first day (first hour?) of ownership.   That old Westerbeke didn't self-bleed either.  I got out the engine manual and went through bleeding procedures - had to start at the injector pump and work my way to each injector.  It had a manual pump so I had to lift up a little lever to push a shot of fuel through.  Took about 20-30 minutes to get it primed.  After that experience, I added an electric fuel pump.
--John
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #31 on: February 25, 2009, 04:47:51 PM »
Fueling experience #3:

We took on 65 gallons today at a truck stop with the typical high-flow truck pump.  This time we fueled the left side.  As a test, I placed the nozzle completely in the filler neck and placed the handle in the maximum on position with the 'keeper' and anxiously monitored the progress.  The fuel was going in the tank at a high rate, but I have no idea of how many GPM it was.

The pump handle tripped off at 47 gallons pumped with very little splash-back.  So we were 18 gallons shy of a full tank, but I was actually pleased I got that much fuel in that quickly.  Duplicating my last experience, getting the last 18 gallons in did seem to go faster with the new filler necks.

At this point I am concluding the new filler necks have improved fueling, but it is a little difficult to justify the cost-benefit ratio.  If the pump tripped off at maybe five or ten gallons shy of a full tank, I would feel much better about this.  So I must conclude I only have part of the solution implemented, the other part is the improved tank with the larger diameter vent.
--John
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #32 on: February 25, 2009, 07:15:56 PM »
They told me that the new tanks still have a 1/2 vent tube? just a different location. ???
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #33 on: February 26, 2009, 07:41:54 AM »
The Freightliner tech who did our filler neck replacements has also changed out two tanks in the campaign.  He said the new tanks have 7/8" vents directly on top of the tank.
--John
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #34 on: February 26, 2009, 12:19:54 PM »
I have the same coach as John. I had mine modified this week and have not had a chance to check to see if it is better. I only did the driver's side because the passenger's side required a lot more work. I think I better check my slide to see if it works properly.
The cost was just over $700.

Manuel Sowers
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #35 on: February 26, 2009, 12:24:42 PM »
Hey there Manuel!  I'm very glad to see you over here - have a look around and check out the library, etc.

Be sure and let us know what your fueling experiences are with the new neck.
--John
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #36 on: February 26, 2009, 12:39:58 PM »
FWIW we've had a fuel fill issue on our Monaco since we bought it new. Several forum members confirmed they had the same issue with their Monaco products. I could never fill the tank and, coupled with the inaccurate fuel gauge, I was paranoid about it. I'd make way too many unnecessary fuel stops, resulting in only 40 to 60 gallons being added at a time into a 100 gallon tank. The top-ups were often 10-20 gallons less than my mental calculations based on mileage, adding to my paranoia.

When I got to tour Monaco's Roadmaster chassis factory, I understood the issue, or at least a big part of it; The fill tube is inclined at a very low angle, almost horizontal, so, fuel comes out the fill tube before the tank is actually "full". The other thing I came to understand was the fact that diesel foams, preventing complete filling. Backing off the fill rate for the latter part of the fill allowed me to put an additional 10-15 gallons in that otherwise wouldn't be possible.

I subsequently installed one of the VMSpc units laying around in the garage and installed the VMSpc software on my PC. I found my calculations were within 0.5-1.0 gallon of what the ECM was reporting, and quit worrying about it.
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #37 on: February 26, 2009, 06:23:24 PM »
I have the same coach as John. I had mine modified this week and have not had a chance to check to see if it is better. I only did the driver's side because the passenger's side required a lot more work. I think I better check my slide to see if it works properly.
The cost was just over $700.


did you call in your vin to see if you could get a fix at no cost?(new tank)
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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #38 on: February 26, 2009, 08:24:15 PM »
Tom - that's very interesting.  We're not the only ones with the issue then.  I used VMSpc early on so I never was too worried about how much fuel we had on board - it was just the frustration of getting the last 20 gallons in.

Kevin - Freightliner can tell you if you are a candidate for the filler necks or fuel tank.  If you are in warranty, you don't pay for parts or labor.  Out of warranty,  you pay for parts, Freightliner covers labor.  (I'm not clear if the warranty requirement is the Winnebago house warranty, or the Freightliner chassis warranty.)
--John
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Harry B

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #39 on: February 26, 2009, 09:29:12 PM »
The charge for the filler neck parts is an issue regarding the one year warranty that Winnebago provides.

Where I am having a problem with this issue is that I brought the problem to the Winnie dealer's attention from day one that I owned the coach (didn't receive a full tank of diesel at delivery) and on two following service appointments (so it is documented) while the coach was in warranty. I was told several methods to circumvent the problem by both the dealer and Winnebago of which none resolved the issue. Yet now Winnebago states that I am out of warranty so there will be a charge for the parts even though it was not addressed during the warranty period.

I am however beginning to question if the problem does not solely belong with FCCC. Replacing the filler necks appears to still not allow a tank to be filled entirely or within couple of gallons of full without clicking off the filler nozzle. Does anyone know the change in filling the tank when the fuel tank has been swapped out?

Perhaps by finger pointing between FCCC and Winnebago, the hope is that owners of coaches that are looking to get this problem resolved will eventually give up.
Harry - (Central FL)

2005 Horizon-KD
2013 Honda CR-V

ms911

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2009, 05:55:49 AM »
Kevin,
I called FL and Winnebago. Winnebago wasn't much help but FL paid for the labor.  The person I talked to at Winnebago wasn't  aware of a problem.  I found that hard to believe since they had a modified filler tube for sale.
John,
I checked my slide yesterday and it worked fine. Thanks for pointing out a potential problem.
Manuel Sowers
2005 Itasca Horizon 40AD
2004 Mini Cooper S toad

John Canfield

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2009, 08:34:53 AM »
Does anyone know the change in filling the tank when the fuel tank has been swapped out?...

Perhaps by finger pointing between FCCC and Winnebago, the hope is that owners of coaches that are looking to get this problem resolved will eventually give up.

Harry - the situation might be different in a better business environment.  Winnebago has been trying their best to stay alive and I'm sure Freightliner is suffering along with the rest.  I'm not completely happy about the "partial" fix for my fueling issue, but at least Winnebago is still paying for warranty work (unlike Monaco.)

I have toyed with the idea off and on for a couple of years about having a larger tank fabricated - maybe this will be an incentive to pursue that further.

It would be very interesting to hear about fueling performance with the new tank and new necks.  Hopefully somebody will step up with the answer.


....The person I talked to at Winnebago wasn't  aware of a problem.  I found that hard to believe since they had a modified filler tube for sale....

How about that :D  They have been supplying filler necks for several months (part of the house - not part of the chassis) and fielding phone calls for several months about the campaign.  I suspect the "I don't know, contact Freightliner.." answer is in their playbook.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
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porscheracer

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #42 on: February 27, 2009, 03:58:52 PM »
Sounds like we'll just keep on playing a game of cribbage while the coach fills up. :D
Norm & Janet - Retired and roaming the world, by RV and ship.
2 RV's, 2 toads, 4 trailers, and 2 trailer queens.
Current location: at home - East End, AR
Next RV trip: Middlle TN, around Thanksgiving
Next cruise: Seabourn Odyssey - Istanbul to Ft. Lauderdale 10/17 - 11/7

kevin

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #43 on: February 27, 2009, 07:44:23 PM »
Hey guy's I left you info on the new tank replacement, and filling procedure over on the slow fill problem thread.

kevin
[edit]Added link.[/url]
« Last Edit: February 28, 2009, 02:05:34 AM by Tom »
2006 Tour
2011 Buick Enclave

gave up on that winning lotto ticket!

Harry B

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #44 on: February 27, 2009, 09:39:36 PM »
Thanks Kevin for replying. I somehow did not remember your reply on the other post even though after rereading it again I did remember it.
Harry - (Central FL)

2005 Horizon-KD
2013 Honda CR-V

kevin

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Re: Fuel filler neck replacement is underway :-)
« Reply #45 on: February 28, 2009, 05:54:15 PM »
Thanks Kevin for replying. I somehow did not remember your reply on the other post even though after rereading it again I did remember it.
you know what they call that don't ya? ;D (old age) don't feel bad, I don't think they are right about the old age thing, I'm 38 and couldn't tell ya what I didn last week, well probably not even 2days ok :D
2006 Tour
2011 Buick Enclave

gave up on that winning lotto ticket!

 

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