Sponsored by Winnebago Industries

Author Topic: Battery Boost Switch  (Read 28139 times)

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Battery Boost Switch
« on: March 31, 2009, 07:13:53 PM »
I have a 2007 Adventurer. If the engine battery is low or dead, while plugged into shore power, can the battery boost switch be taped open to permit the battery to be charged off the house batteries?

SargeW

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 6376
  • Life is better on the road!
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #1 on: March 31, 2009, 08:13:51 PM »
If you are referring to the "momentary" switch on the dash, then the answer is yes, according to a post on another forum that claimed the info was from Winnebago.  However, Winnie started installing a Trick-L-Start on coaches starting in 2006.  Have you checked your 12V breaker box to see if one is there? 

It also depends how dead the battery is. The momentary switch is intended to boost a battery that is just a little too low to turn over your motor.  If the battery is really dead, like 9 volts or so, then you won't get your  battery charger to charge the battery no matter what. 

I have read where some folks have stuck a match stick under the momentary switch to provide power to both sets of batteries.  I have not had the need, so I have not had to test the theory.

Sarge
Marty--
2017 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40SP
Cummins ISL 450 HP/Powerglide chassis
Visit our new travel blog! http://www.mytripjournal.com/rvnchickTNG
Support your local Police Officer, Fire Fighter and Military!

John From Detroit

  • ---
  • Posts: 19751
  • ^My New Home^
    • Diabetics Forum
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #2 on: March 31, 2009, 08:44:25 PM »
Though the answer is yes.. I'm not so sure..

Then there is the other issue.. (Letting a battery, epically a starting battery, get that low.. NOT GOOD)

Trick-L-Start (lower price) or the xantrex Echo Charge (Higher price) very good idea in my not very humble opinion
(For rigs that do not already charge both banks off the converter)

Simple 3-wire hookup
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #3 on: March 31, 2009, 08:44:55 PM »
Hey tallyho!  Welcome!

Sarge is correct - the solenoid that bridges both battery banks is rated for continuous duty.  Sarge is also correct about the Trik-L-Start... Winnie started installing the Trik-L-Start with the 2006 model year, but I don't know how far down the model chain they went.  Give Winnie owner relations a call to find out if you have one.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #4 on: April 01, 2009, 09:49:21 AM »
Thanks for the info......

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #5 on: April 01, 2009, 04:16:52 PM »
On behalf of Sarge and me, you're welcome and don't be a stranger!
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

hikerdogs

  • ---
  • Posts: 21
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #6 on: April 01, 2009, 08:56:55 PM »
We took another route to insure all batteries can be charged by shore power.  We replaced the momentary switch with a 3 position one (per a suggestion of a Winnebago rep at the 2008 GNR). 

In the "normal" operating position (the lower end of the switch depressed) the alternator charges both sets of batteries (when the engine is running) and shore power charges only the house batteries. 

In the center position all batteries are disconnected from all charging systems. 

When the upper end of the switch is depressed shore power charges both the coach and house batteries.  This would be the same as taping or manually holding the switch in the "Battery Boost" position.  I also added a small pilot light that indicates when the switch is set to charge all batteries from shore power.

This change may be more important in a coach the age of ours.  Through at least 2001 the 12 volt power ports were connected to the chassis battery.  That means every time you charge a personal radio, cell phone, or plug your computer into a 12 volt port you're running off the chassis battery.  Over time you can discharge the chassis battery without even knowing it.  A few years later (I'm not sure of the exact year) they changed the power ports to the house batteries.  With this system there should always be power to start the coach no matter how often you charge your toys or plug in your computer.

We find it useful to put the switch in the "Battery Boost" position whenever we stay in one place more than a couple weeks.  It seems that we always need to plug in some 12 volt accessory and this allows us to keep the chassis battery up to the task. 
« Last Edit: April 01, 2009, 08:59:34 PM by hikerdogs »
Hikerdogs
2001 Winnebago Adventurer 32V

scottydl

  • Admin assist
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 7678
  • Central IL
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #7 on: April 01, 2009, 10:14:28 PM »
We find it useful to put the switch in the "Battery Boost" position whenever we stay in one place more than a couple weeks.  It seems that we always need to plug in some 12 volt accessory and this allows us to keep the chassis battery up to the task.

Wow, that is a really great idea.  I have an external trickle charger that I plug into the rig (on shore power) and attach to the chassis battery when camping for more than a few days.  But it sure seems like it would be easier to replace the Boost switch so it will stay in that "boost" position indefinitely (rather than the momentary design).  Would there be any reason not to leave the chassis and house batteries connected like that all the time?
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 1995 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 tow vehicle
- 1994 Thor Residency motorhome... owned 2007-2012

Jeff

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 8979
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #8 on: April 01, 2009, 10:24:35 PM »
Scotty:

You run the chance of discharging all your batteries if no charging source is available.

scottydl

  • Admin assist
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 7678
  • Central IL
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #9 on: April 01, 2009, 10:39:03 PM »
You run the chance of discharging all your batteries if no charging source is available.

True... italicized segment added to my question...

Would there be any reason not to leave the chassis and house batteries connected all the time when connected to shore power?
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 1995 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 tow vehicle
- 1994 Thor Residency motorhome... owned 2007-2012

hikerdogs

  • ---
  • Posts: 21
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #10 on: April 02, 2009, 08:18:59 AM »
Off hand I can't think of any negatives for leaving the switch in the boost position when hooked to shore power.  You just have to remember to put it in the "normal" position when you drive the coach.  That's why I added the pilot light.  I'm sure by now I would have forgotten to flip the switch if there hadn't been some prompt to do so.

Having said that we only leave the switch in the "Boost" position long enough to get a full charge on the chassis battery.  Once it reaches the 12.8 volt mark on the One Place panel we put the switch back in the normal position.   We've been in a couple campgrounds that lost power.  As mentioned if all the batteries were hooked together for extended periods without shore power they might all be dead.
Hikerdogs
2001 Winnebago Adventurer 32V

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #11 on: April 02, 2009, 08:51:15 AM »
In general, paralleling batteries is a terrible idea - a problem in one cell of one battery can cause the entire bank to completely discharge, or fool the charger into thinking the batteries are discharged and it then pumps lots of current into the banks and causes gassing.

RVs usually have parallel banks due to the ease on installation and simplification.  On our last boat, I had two battery switches and never had more than one battery on-line at one time - making this scheme work would be a little more difficult on the typical RV - hence we have parallel batteries.

However, I don't mind my three Lifeline AGMs being in parallel too much since they are premium batteries.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

hikerdogs

  • ---
  • Posts: 21
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #12 on: April 02, 2009, 12:41:59 PM »
I agree paralleling all the batteries may have a potential downside; however it's the only way to recharge the chassis battery in our coach short of running the engine for several hours or adding a seperate charger.  Under normal conditions it would require the engine to be running a minimum of 2 hours to restore the chassis battery to a full state of charge. 

I check the specific gravity of all the cells in all the batteries on a regular basis.  Should a problem develop I believe it could be resolved before any damage is incurred.  Also the charger in our coach is located in the galley under the stove.  There is no doubt as to when it starts to work and when it shuts off.  If it were to run an inordinate amount of time it would be fairly obvious.  Keep in mind we only activate the "Boost" switch when the meter in the panel shows the chassis battery needs to be charged, and shut it off when the job is done.
Hikerdogs
2001 Winnebago Adventurer 32V

maddog348

  • ---
  • Posts: 706
  • Maddog & 'Sunny'
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #13 on: April 02, 2009, 02:48:16 PM »
SargeW, Yess Winnie began putting in the Trik-L-Start on MOST units 2006. Did not put one on my 2007 26P as thot it too small to have much drain.  Was one of the first things I did to it.
Pam (a.k.a.-Maddog  (driver))
Kate (a.k.a.-One Eyed Old Lady {nagivator))
 
2 furry copilots ('Charlie' 15# Terrier/X &  'Bella' 10# Min.Schnauzer/X'

2007 Itasca 'Sunova' 26P ~ 2003 Rav4 'toad'(remco tranny pump)

FrontrangeRVer

  • ---
  • Posts: 1432
  • 8,600 feet elevation up in the Rockies
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #14 on: April 02, 2009, 03:13:27 PM »
SargeW, Yess Winnie began putting in the Trik-L-Start on MOST units 2006. Did not put one on my 2007 26P as thot it too small to have much drain.  Was one of the first things I did to it.

To clarify, Winnie installed Trik-L-Start units in 2006 only on DP's....no gas coaches.
2015 Winnebago Forza 34T
2 toads, depending on purpose:
2012 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
2005 Hyundai Elantra

FrontrangeRVer

  • ---
  • Posts: 1432
  • 8,600 feet elevation up in the Rockies
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #15 on: April 02, 2009, 03:14:20 PM »
Welcome Tallyo!  I've enjoyed your posts "over there", and look forward to them here!   :)
2015 Winnebago Forza 34T
2 toads, depending on purpose:
2012 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
2005 Hyundai Elantra

FrontrangeRVer

  • ---
  • Posts: 1432
  • 8,600 feet elevation up in the Rockies
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #16 on: April 02, 2009, 03:17:43 PM »
I have read many posts of owners that do put something under the momentary switch to charge the batteries, but I agree with John in that it is NOT a good idea.  Installing a small trickle charger on your "chassis" battery (or a Trik-L-Start) is the best way to keep it charged....not the battery switch.   :)
2015 Winnebago Forza 34T
2 toads, depending on purpose:
2012 Jeep Wrangler Rubicon
2005 Hyundai Elantra

hikerdogs

  • ---
  • Posts: 21
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #17 on: April 03, 2009, 07:33:39 AM »

From John Canfield

"In general, paralleling batteries is a terrible idea - a problem in one cell of one battery can cause the entire bank to completely discharge, or fool the charger into thinking the batteries are discharged and it then pumps lots of current into the banks and causes gassing."

The more I thought about this statement questions started to come to mind.  It seems we already paralel all the batteries anytime the coach is running.  At least on our coach the solenoid that parallels all the batteries is activated whenever the ignition switch is in the "ON"position.  Also if you have more than 1 house battery (like 2-12 volt batteries or 4-6 volt batteries) they are charged in parallel either from the engine alternator when the coach is running, or the charger when hooked to shore power.

I don't see much difference between what the coach does automatically and what I'm doing on a manual basis.  Am I missing something?
Hikerdogs
2001 Winnebago Adventurer 32V

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #18 on: April 03, 2009, 08:37:20 AM »
The difference is time. 

In one case the batteries are in parallel only while the engine is running; the other case is using the boost switch on a long-term basis.  Winnie uses the solenoid not for its technical elegance, but because it is a relatively inexpensive way to charge all batteries while the engine is running.

The other negative aspect of paralleling house and chassis batteries is they are usually different kinds of batteries - deep-cycle and starting batteries.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #19 on: April 03, 2009, 10:32:17 AM »
I think the (BIRD) Bi-Directional Relay Delay function provided by, either the Intellitec or RV Custom Products Battery Control Centers is by far the superior system.  What does it do?  It picks the aux start solenoid ;)

Sure, the final result is that the batteries are paralleled with a simple solenoid, but there is a charge voltage threshold and a timing element that must be satisfied to prevent picking the solenoid when it is not appropriate.

Just as important (maybe more so) is the action of these thresholds to cause the parallel connection to drop out when no charge voltage is present and one battery bank might be drained by the other.

In the Ignition on position, the engine must be running and the alternator charging above 13.2v for more than 12 seconds for the solenoid to close.  This prevents overloading the alternator on initial start up.

The same thresholds have to be met to allow paralleling the batteries and charging the chassis battery from shore power.

Just a bit more sophisticated than a jammed switch or a "Trik-L-Start"
« Last Edit: April 03, 2009, 10:34:01 AM by Lou (onaquest) »
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

Richard 34A

  • ---
  • Posts: 206
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #20 on: April 03, 2009, 01:25:12 PM »
If you are referring to the "momentary" switch on the dash, then the answer is yes, according to a post on another forum that claimed the info was from Winnebago.  However, Winnie started installing a Trick-L-Start on coaches starting in 2006.  Have you checked your 12V breaker box to see if one is there? 

It also depends how dead the battery is. The momentary switch is intended to boost a battery that is just a little too low to turn over your motor.  If the battery is really dead, like 9 volts or so, then you won't get your  battery charger to charge the battery no matter what. 

I have read where some folks have stuck a match stick under the momentary switch to provide power to both sets of batteries.  I have not had the need, so I have not had to test the theory.

Sarge

My MOM switch has never worked, at least the few times I really needed it to work. When I push the switch, I do hear a 'click'. How can I check it out and what likely needs to be replaced? I always need to carry a battery jump-start when I go over to storage, just in case...

Thanks-
Workhorse Owners: We won! Brake Recall in Effect!

John From Detroit

  • ---
  • Posts: 19751
  • ^My New Home^
    • Diabetics Forum
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #21 on: April 03, 2009, 02:52:57 PM »
While it is true that if a cell shorts in two parallel batteries the OTHER battery will be deep discharged (in many cases) it is also true that a DEEP CYCLE battery just might recover from that, if it is not done too often.

But this is indeed another of the "Scare" things I hear on multi-battery installs

And many, many, many vehicles are designed this way from the factory, WIth 2 or more batteries in parallel

In any case if you belong to the "All the batteries need to be indentical" crowd (I do not) then when you replace one battery you will automitacally replace the others at the same time so what difference does it make?

The one danger in parallelign is if you put something like a Group 24 next to say a D-8 and the 24 shorts a cell (or worse 2) the D-8 will try to charge it

And there can be enough current to cause a battery "Explosion"  (Likely very little, if any damage)

A fuse (well 2 fuses) can prevent this    Size the fuse by determining the max current you will ever pass and work out the battery's share

IE: in this case (Roughly 300 amp hours) if you might, draw say 300 amps. tops, the G-24 gets an 80 amp fuse and the D-8 220

You could round up to 100 and 300
Nothing adds excitement like something that is none of your business
My Home is where I park it.

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #22 on: April 03, 2009, 03:58:41 PM »
My MOM switch has never worked, at least the few times I really needed it to work. When I push the switch, I do hear a 'click'. How can I check it out and what likely needs to be replaced? I always need to carry a battery jump-start when I go over to storage, just in case...
Thanks-

A common way these solenoids fail is to burn and pit the internal contacts to the point that they do not make contact when the solenoid picks (clicks).  Have someone activate the switch (make sure it's the solenoid that is clicking) and measure the changes in voltage (if any) across the two large terminals of the solenoid.
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

carson

  • ---
  • Posts: 4925
  • memories of yore
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #23 on: April 03, 2009, 04:05:02 PM »
You are a "Wise Old Geezer" Lou
Carson, 
 West Central Florida
Ex RV'er. (1995 Winnebago Adventurer)
2007 Buick Rendezvous, SUV / CROSSOVER

...Logic works like a charm...

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #24 on: April 03, 2009, 05:40:38 PM »
I called Winnebago Factory service. I ,in fact, called twice so I could talk with 2 different folks. Both said ok to tape the boost switch on for a specific period of time. They recommended using tape or a match box cover to keep it open and do it at a specific time, such as dinner time and then the next day at dinner time it should have fully recharged the engine battery. Obviously the assumption is that I am hooked up to shore power.

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #25 on: April 03, 2009, 08:03:50 PM »
My MOM switch has never worked, at least the few times I really needed it to work. When I push the switch, I do hear a 'click'. How can I check it out and what likely needs to be replaced? I always need to carry a battery jump-start when I go over to storage, just in case...

Thanks-

Probably the easiest way to tell if your solenoid is working is to start your engine and use the voltmeter in your 'OnePlace' to check the voltage of the house and chassis batteries - both banks should be above 13 volts (unless they are way discharged.)  If you don't have a Winnie-supplied voltmeter, do one of two options:

- as Lou suggests you can meter across the large solenoid terminals with a voltmeter while the solenoid is operated.  You should not read any voltage

- use your voltmeter and meter house and chassis battery banks - both should read above 13 volts (unless the batteries are way discharged)
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #26 on: April 04, 2009, 08:01:44 PM »
Does anyone know of a retail outlet that sells Trik-L-Starts, or do they only sell on line?  Ole cheapo me trying to avoid shipping charges........

maddog348

  • ---
  • Posts: 706
  • Maddog & 'Sunny'
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #27 on: April 04, 2009, 08:10:13 PM »
Gave up looking local. Got mine on line.  K
Pam (a.k.a.-Maddog  (driver))
Kate (a.k.a.-One Eyed Old Lady {nagivator))
 
2 furry copilots ('Charlie' 15# Terrier/X &  'Bella' 10# Min.Schnauzer/X'

2007 Itasca 'Sunova' 26P ~ 2003 Rav4 'toad'(remco tranny pump)

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #28 on: April 04, 2009, 09:58:43 PM »
Local buy - extremely unlikely!  One good place is RV Upgrades.  The owner (Bill Rowell) is a good guy and they have good prices.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

scottydl

  • Admin assist
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 7678
  • Central IL
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #29 on: April 04, 2009, 10:40:25 PM »
Does anyone know of a retail outlet that sells Trik-L-Starts, or do they only sell on line?  Ole cheapo me trying to avoid shipping charges........

I'm not sure if brand name really matters on these items (some may disagree)... I got my 1.5amp trickle charger in the Wal-mart automotive department for $17.  It's worked flawlessly for almost 2 years now anyway.
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 1995 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 tow vehicle
- 1994 Thor Residency motorhome... owned 2007-2012

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #30 on: April 04, 2009, 10:48:08 PM »
I'm not sure if brand name really matters on these items (some may disagree)... I got my 1.5amp trickle charger in the Wal-mart automotive department for $17.  It's worked flawlessly for almost 2 years now anyway.

Scotty, there is a difference between a Trickle Charger (may be generic) and a Trik-L-Start.

The trickle charger usually needs 120vac where the Trik-L-Start does not.
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

scottydl

  • Admin assist
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 7678
  • Central IL
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #31 on: April 04, 2009, 10:49:59 PM »
Alright, my mistake - I did not realize the difference, but that certainly makes sense.
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 1995 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 tow vehicle
- 1994 Thor Residency motorhome... owned 2007-2012

maddog348

  • ---
  • Posts: 706
  • Maddog & 'Sunny'
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #32 on: April 05, 2009, 12:09:00 AM »
Trik-L-Start & a trickle charger are NOT one and the same animal.
Pam (a.k.a.-Maddog  (driver))
Kate (a.k.a.-One Eyed Old Lady {nagivator))
 
2 furry copilots ('Charlie' 15# Terrier/X &  'Bella' 10# Min.Schnauzer/X'

2007 Itasca 'Sunova' 26P ~ 2003 Rav4 'toad'(remco tranny pump)

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #33 on: April 05, 2009, 11:42:17 AM »
Ok folks I ordered my Trik-L- Start........... yes I am paying $4.95 S&H... supposedly will be here next week........The things I do to pamper myself. ;D...... My wife thinks it's ok for her to go shopping now...... :o

Some how she thinks, and I know she got it from her mother,  "what's good for the Gander is ok for the Goose"........or is it "what Goose gets gandered is not lost?"

Anyway it's on it's way to my house....just in time to start the summer travels.......

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #34 on: April 05, 2009, 12:23:32 PM »
.....The things I do to pamper myself. ;D.....

Pamper - no way!  You ordered something useful  ;)
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #35 on: April 05, 2009, 03:03:06 PM »
I know that and you know that...but to my wife something that is useful is a credit card in a store that is selling women's clothes and/or shoes at 40% off....... :o

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #36 on: April 05, 2009, 04:50:20 PM »
 ;D ;D
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

Jeff

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 8979
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #37 on: April 05, 2009, 10:57:50 PM »
Just make sure you are getting a three stage charger, not a traditional trickle charger that will keep charging until the batteries boil dry. Googling for Battery Minder is another option.

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #38 on: April 06, 2009, 08:04:14 AM »
Jeff - he ordered a Trik-L-Start - it diverts charge current from one bank to another (like the Xantrex Echo~Charge.)
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

cbeierl

  • ---
  • Posts: 454
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #39 on: April 06, 2009, 08:32:17 PM »
Just fyi, here's a link for the Trik-L-Start at RVUpgrades: Trik-L-Start
Chris Beierl
2005 Winnebago Vectra 36RD

SargeW

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 6376
  • Life is better on the road!
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #40 on: April 07, 2009, 08:58:39 PM »
Thanks for the info on the 06 DP's versus the gas chassis.  I was not aware of the differences.  One thought occurs to me regarding keeping the boost switch open, or installing a different switch.  If the on board charger is supplying juice to the battery bank based on what power level it is see's from the house battery bank, then isn't there a chance of cooking the chassis batteries?  I hit my house batteries pretty good at times, taking them down to 40% to 50%, then running the generator to bring them back up.  I have seen my charger hit the house bank with 105 amps in the bulk charging mode.  I would think to pour that much of a charge into my starting batteries would cook them short order.  Am I missing something?

Sarge 
Marty--
2017 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40SP
Cummins ISL 450 HP/Powerglide chassis
Visit our new travel blog! http://www.mytripjournal.com/rvnchickTNG
Support your local Police Officer, Fire Fighter and Military!

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 60784
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #41 on: April 07, 2009, 09:45:43 PM »
Quote
I have seen my charger hit the house bank with 105 amps in the bulk charging mode.  I would think to pour that much of a charge into my starting batteries would cook them short order.  Am I missing something?

105A isn't too much when spread over 6 batteries (4 house and 2 chassis). Even with only three (2+1) that's just 35A/battery.

But the battery charge controller won't connect the chassis to the house until the house bank comes up to near full charge, which means bulk charge is over and you are into the acceptance or float stage. Nowhere near 100A.
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #42 on: April 08, 2009, 09:02:36 AM »

But the battery charge controller won't connect the chassis to the house until the house bank comes up to near full charge, which means bulk charge is over and you are into the acceptance or float stage. Nowhere near 100A.

I'm not sure this is correct, although the outcome may be the same.

Assuming we are talking simple Trik-L-Start and/or "BIRD" function, the connection is made based on voltage level, not current.  It has no way of knowing if that voltage is being produced by the charger or reflected back from the battery being charged.  It only knows that the charge voltage level is above a certain threshold and it's time to go to work.

Charge voltage is higher than float voltage so the solenoid will pick almost immediately.  The fact that the house batteries are drawing 105 amps of charge current has little effect on a paralleled fully charged Chassis battery.  The charger can't force current into a charged battery, the undercharged battery has to accept the current. (absorb the charge)

The chassis battery may start gassing if the charge voltage is held near 14 for a very long period of time.
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #43 on: April 08, 2009, 04:43:49 PM »
Assuming we are talking simple Trik-L-Start and/or "BIRD" function, the connection is made based on voltage level, not current

Lou - that's my understanding as well.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 60784
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #44 on: April 08, 2009, 05:25:04 PM »
Quote
Assuming we are talking simple Trik-L-Start and/or "BIRD" function, the connection is made based on voltage level, not current.  It has no way of knowing if that voltage is being produced by the charger or reflected back from the battery being charged.  It only knows that the charge voltage level is above a certain threshold and it's time to go to work.

You are probably right about those simple devices. The BCC devices are more sophisticated, though, and monitor both high and low voltage and have some time-outs built in so they don't over-react.  At any rate, overcharging the coach batteries while the house is charging is not likely to be issue, in my opinion. As I said earlier, even in bulk mode the rate is not too high an  a per battery basis.
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #45 on: April 08, 2009, 07:01:51 PM »
You are probably right about those simple devices. The BCC devices are more sophisticated, though, and monitor both high and low voltage and have some time-outs built in so they don't over-react.  At any rate, overcharging the coach batteries while the house is charging is not likely to be issue, in my opinion. As I said earlier, even in bulk mode the rate is not too high an  a per battery basis.

Gary, not to beat a dead horse, but there is a lot of misinformation out there about how these devices work, and don't work, and it makes it difficult for the average guy to evaluate the consequences of how he hooks up his batteries.

I hear comments like; "my system only charges the chassis  batteries when the house  batteries are full" or vice versa.  That's really not an accurate statement.

The modern BCC (Intellitec or RV-CP) has basically two functions when it comes to battery charge control.
 
One is to sense when there is a charge voltage available from either the alternator or the converter and to pass it on to the opposite set of batteries. 

Simply speaking; when the voltage from the alternator or converter exceeds 13.2 vdc (for approx. 12 seconds the time element ) the isolation solenoid is picked and the batteries are bridged.  Notice that the SOC of neither battery bank was checked or known in making this decision.

Secondly, when the charge voltage is removed and the voltage at the sensors decays to 12.2 or 12.6 vdc the solenoid is allowed  to drop out and the batteries are again isolated so that one will not discharge the other.

There is no more magic, smoke or mirrors involved.  For any charge controller to actually switch it's charging voltage/current from one battery bank to another, based on SOC, there would be have to be sophisticated switching circuits, sensors and shunts involved that just don't exist with the $29  Trik-L-Start or the average BCC.
« Last Edit: April 08, 2009, 08:53:13 PM by Lou (onaquest) »
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

rsalhus

  • ---
  • Posts: 1336
  • '01 Rexhall Vision DP
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #46 on: April 08, 2009, 08:28:40 PM »
Quote
At any rate, overcharging the coach batteries while the house is charging is not likely to be issue, in my opinion.

I think you meant to say that "overcharging the chassis  batteries while the house is charging is not likely to be an issue......" 

Rolf Salhus
Currently at:  Our home in Apple Valley, MN

Jeff

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 8979
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #47 on: April 09, 2009, 12:23:09 AM »
The one issue I had with our Xantrex EchoCharge is that when I equalized our coach batteries our six year old low maintenance chassis batteries could not start the coach the next day. They had been working OK but I believe the 16 volts boiled what water there was left out of them. I disconnected the EchoCharge until I added a Battery Minder On Board pulse Desulphator last year which should do away with the necessity of equalizing very often

I guess I will know in a few years if it is working. ;D

SargeW

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 6376
  • Life is better on the road!
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #48 on: April 09, 2009, 12:42:11 AM »
Thanks Lou, Gary, for helping me understand that.  However, since there is devices in place to control and not over charge the battery, wouldn't it make sense to just eliminate the switch and wire them together and let the charger and solenoids figure it out?  Or is that an over simplication........ ???
Marty--
2017 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40SP
Cummins ISL 450 HP/Powerglide chassis
Visit our new travel blog! http://www.mytripjournal.com/rvnchickTNG
Support your local Police Officer, Fire Fighter and Military!

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 60784
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #49 on: April 09, 2009, 07:10:34 AM »
Quote
However, since there is devices in place to control and not over charge the battery, wouldn't it make sense to just eliminate the switch and wire them together and let the charger and solenoids figure it out?  Or is that an over simplication.....

I'm lost - eliminate what switch? Wire them together how?

Most Winnies don't have a BCC, so there is no charge controller to "figure it out".

As Lou points out, the logic in these battery charge controller/isolators is rather crude. On the other hand, the problem is not one that demands a lot of finesse either. We get immersed in the tech details here and often talk like batteries are fragile things that can be killed in a moment by any slight deviation from the optimal spec, but they are actually quite rugged. Sure they can be murdered, but it is a  slow death. Two years or more for a run-of-the-mill marine deep cycle and 4-5 years for a golf cart battery. Treat them real nice and you can  increase that by as much as 50%.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2009, 07:13:48 AM by RV Roamer »
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Gary RV_Wizard

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 60784
  • RVer Emeritus
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #50 on: April 09, 2009, 07:11:56 AM »
Quote
I think you meant to say that "overcharging the chassis  batteries while the house is charging is not likely to be an issue......" 

I said "coach" as opposed to "house", but "chassis" would have been a better choice of words.
Gary
--------------
Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

Ned

  • Former Staff
  • ---
  • Posts: 25574
  • Ned and Lorna are former full time RVers
    • Have you seen Rolling Stock?
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #51 on: April 09, 2009, 07:25:49 AM »
Love the GIF, I have kept a copy of that one!
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #52 on: April 09, 2009, 08:49:44 AM »
Love the GIF, I have kept a copy of that one!

 :D :D
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #53 on: April 09, 2009, 09:11:41 AM »
I can't seem to save it as an animated GIF. What am I doing wrong?
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

Ned

  • Former Staff
  • ---
  • Posts: 25574
  • Ned and Lorna are former full time RVers
    • Have you seen Rolling Stock?
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #54 on: April 09, 2009, 09:15:07 AM »
Lou, click on it to expand it to full size, then right click and Save Image As.  This is for Firefox, but the language should be similar in any other browser.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #55 on: April 09, 2009, 09:23:07 AM »
Thanks Ned, I was trying to save it from the thumbnail and gif was not given as an option.  I have it now so I can beat my own dead horse ;D
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

kamphiker

  • ---
  • Posts: 8
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #56 on: April 13, 2009, 08:13:35 PM »
With the Trik-L-start installed what prevents power being drawn from the House batteries when dry camping ?

I would only want power to be drawn when recharging the house batteries while dry camping.

John Canfield

  • Forum Staff
  • ---
  • *
  • Posts: 11903
    • Jane and John's Internet Home
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #57 on: April 13, 2009, 08:25:34 PM »
With the Trik-L-start installed what prevents power being drawn from the House batteries when dry camping ?

I would only want power to be drawn when recharging the house batteries while dry camping.

The logic in the Trik-L-Start (I assume - it is for a fact in the Xantrex Echo~Charge) looks for a source battery voltage above xx.x volts which would assume the source (house battery) is being charged before it channels any voltage to the destination (chassis battery) battery.
--John
2005 Horizon 40AD, 2006 Jeep Rubicon Unlimited
Our Horizon projects
Our weather

Just Lou

  • ---
  • Posts: 8125
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #58 on: April 13, 2009, 09:20:12 PM »
The logic in the Trik-L-Start (I assume - it is for a fact in the Xantrex Echo~Charge) looks for a source battery voltage above xx.x volts which would assume the source (house battery) is being charged before it channels any voltage to the destination (chassis battery) battery.

John, you are correct.  It acts as an isolator when the source battery voltage is below 13.2vdc.  When the house batteries start receiving a charge of at least 13.2v some of that charge is allowed to "trickle" over into the chassis battery.  It is not a direct couple like a solenoid would be, but a measured amount of current is allowed to flow.

It will not be damaged (or attempt to charge) by voltage in the reverse direction, so the alternator voltage will have no effect on the Trik-L-Start.  Your coach still needs the existing functional components to charge house batteries from the chassis/alternator.
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

tallyo

  • ---
  • Posts: 370
  • 2012 Phaeton 40QBH Drinks 6, Eats 4 and Sleeps 2 !
Re: Battery Boost Switch
« Reply #59 on: April 14, 2009, 05:35:35 AM »
The logic in the Trik-L-Start (I assume - it is for a fact in the Xantrex Echo~Charge) looks for a source battery voltage above xx.x volts which would assume the source (house battery) is being charged before it channels any voltage to the destination (chassis battery) battery.

Now that I am the resident "expert" on Trik-L-Start. A recommendation is to have a source of recharging the house batteries , such as a 10 watt solar charger, and /or being plugged into shore power. 8)

 

Hosted by Over The Network