Brakebuddy Advantage vs Classic Brakebuddy

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The Apollo has a knob on top to adjust the pedal pressure.  The internal compressor always charges the reservoir up to 120psi, I believe.  I have ours set to 75psi for the pedal pressure.
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The Apollo factory set pressure is 85 PSI.  Blue Ox doesn't recommend setting the pressure above 90 PSI.  I think the pressure you see displayed is the pressure of the reservoir.  I have never seen a table of weights (of the towed vehicle) corresponding to a PSI setting for the Apollo.  How did you determine the 75 PSI setting for your truck?

If that remote light comes on, get off the highway ASAP as the brakes are being applied.
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It happened on a 2-lane road with absolutely no shoulder.  I pulled as far right as I could (about 2 feet off the road) and ran out and turned the Apollo off and jumped back in the MH.  Further ahead I found a place to pull off and checked it out there.  Not fun at all.
 
Watch the pressure gauge as the pump runs.  After it reaches the set pressure, it continues to run until cutoff.  I was told by Blue Ox on the phone that the compressor runs to 120psi.  I can do a test cycle 3 times before the compressor comes on.

I set the pressure to 75psi as it is sufficient to depress the pedal fully.  I could probably set it lower, but haven't done that much testing.  As long as the brake pedal is fully applied and it doesn't break, the setting isn't critical :)
 
Watch the pressure gauge as the pump runs.  After it reaches the set pressure, it continues to run until cutoff.
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I think maybe you're right, I have noticed that it runs a lot longer after it gets to 85 PSI.  But the factory setting of 85 PSI seems very high considering the fact that the recommended pressure setting for a 3,000 lb. toad for the Brake Buddy is 40 PSI.  On the other hand, pressing the drain button on the Apollo and watching the PSI display, it seems to get below 85 PSI almost instantly too. 

Also, I do remember when I changed it from 85 to 90 PSI for testing the breakaway switch, the compressor came on right away as though the tank pressure was at 85 PSI.  But it may have been near the threshhold when I changed it.

Seems funny now that they didn't put in two air pressure gauges, one for the brake setting and one for the tank pressure.  That's the norm for most air compressors.  I guess they didn't want it to look too intimidating for the user.  :p :p
 
rsalhus said:
Can you or anyone explain the difference between full braking mode and proportional braking mode in the BB Vantage?  I don't see a distinction in the website.
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My understanding of the BB proportional braking, from my reading of the manual, is that with proportional braking, the BB senses how hard you are braking ( I guess from the internal sensors) and applies the toad brakes in proportion to that. Full braking means when the BB senses you are braking harder than the sensitivity setting, it applies the full pressure to the toad brakes. In either case, you preset the BB preassure based on the weight of the toad.

So, my understanding is that if the BB pressure is preset to 50 psi, the BB will apply 50 psi to the brakes under full braking, but may only apply 30 psi under proportional. Like I said in my earlier post, so far I have seen little, if any, difference between the two.  ???
 
So, my understanding is that if the BB pressure is preset to 50 psi, the BB will apply 50 psi to the brakes under full braking, but may only apply 30 psi under proportional. Like I said in my earlier post, so far I have seen little, if any, difference between the two.
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I don't know how or where you gleaned that out of the manual, but I suspect you are probably right.  :eek: :eek:

Neither BB nor Blue Ox put too many details in their manuals about how their braking systems actually work, I guess we're just supposed to take their word for it.  I find it incredible that BB can use the term 'proportional braking' without either explaining exactly what it means or how they actually accomplish it.  ??? ???
 
The 50psi threshold for the BB seems high (not necessarily abnormal or wrong) to me looking from the outside. I was just at a Spartan Chassis maintenance seminar a couple of hours ago and the presenter mentioned that only about 9 psi is used by the air brakes for normal braking and 22 psi for standing on it.
 
Bernie, I am not sure we are talking about the same scenario..

  The BB is used with the toad. When towing, the power-assisted brake feature is not working. The brake pedal becomes hard to push without power-assist. Therefor it takes quite a bit of pressure to making braking effective.

  I have my BB set at 50 and at mode 5. Seems to be just right for semi-hard stops. When the BB kicks in I can definitely feel the action within the RV.

  carson
 
The 50psi threshold for the BB seems high (not necessarily abnormal or wrong) to me looking from the outside. I was just at a Spartan Chassis maintenance seminar a couple of hours ago and the presenter mentioned that only about 9 psi is used by the air brakes for normal braking and 22 psi for standing on it.
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For the BB, it's not a compressor threshhold Bernie, it's a manual air pressure setting on the BB that is based on the weight of the towed vehicle.  You set the BB air pressure for 50 PSI (which corresponds to a toad weight of 3500-4000 lbs) and the BB will apply up to 50 PSI to the toad's brake pedal when it brakes. 

The Blue Ox Apollo default air pressure setting, which Blue Ox recommends for all towed vehicles, is 85 PSI.  And that is the pressure that is applied to the foot pedal when the Apollo applies the brakes.

 
rsalhus said:
For the BB, it's not a compressor threshhold Bernie, it's a manual air pressure setting on the BB that is based on the weight of the towed vehicle.  You set the BB air pressure for 50 PSI (which corresponds to a toad weight of 3500-4000 lbs) and the BB will apply up to 50 PSI to the toad's brake pedal when it brakes. 
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Rolf

As I said, I don't know if there is any correlation or if the numbers are high, low or indifferent. But if my 30,000# coach needs only 9 psi from it's air brake to stop or 22psi for an emergency stop, I do have to raise an eyebrow for the BB to need 50 psi to stop a 4,000# car. Whatever BB needs it needs, but that seems like a big difference.
 
Bernie, Toads don't have air brakes, just ordinary hydraulic brakes, normally assisted by vacuum power. When towing there is no vacuum-assist, hence the larger pressure required.

Where am I going wrong?

carson
 
carson said:
Where am I going wrong?
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Carson

You aren't. I keep trying to indicate that I don't know if there is any correlation. You BB owners have indicated the required psi and thats that.
 
One reason for the required 50psi for the BB and 4K toad combo is, as has been stated, that it is being applied to an otherwise dead (no vacuum assist) master cylinder in the toad.  Shut your engine off sometime and see how much pressure it takes to stop that dude.

The second reason for the high pressure is to provide a reserve capacity for the capability of one, two or three back-to-back brake applications.  The small compressor in the BB requires some time to recover and you wouldn't want to have to wait for it after each application.  I'm not sure if the full 50psi is applied each time or not and I'm not volunteering to check it out.
 
You can't compare peddle pressure in an air brake system with that needed in a dead peddle hydraulic system.  Our Apollo, set at 75psi will apply 3 times before the compressor comes on to replenish the reservoir.
 
rsalhus said:
I don't know how or where you gleaned that out of the manual, but I suspect you are probably right.   :eek: :eek:
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Yeah, I guess I didn't get it all from the manual, but from the BB website, and probably from some inferences made from other aux brake websites. There really isn't anything that really explains how the BB proportional braking works. True proportional braking would be great, and that's what I expected from the Vantage Select. Unfortunately, I don't think thats what is delivered.  :(
 
True proportional braking would be great, and that's what I expected from the Vantage Select. Unfortunately, I don't think thats what is delivered.
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I agree.  They keep saying that BB's full braking technology takes the entire weight of the dinghy vehicle off of the motorhome and that BB's proportional braking technology mirrors the braking action of the motorhome.  What they're not saying is that this happens only some of the time and not always, even when running in proportional braking mode.  Have you ever seen a mirror that works only part of the time?  Bad choice of words, IMHO.

I also think the term 'proportional braking' is a very misused term in the auxiliary braking system industry.  Everyone uses the term and everyone assumes that they know what it means.  But strangely, there is no standard definition for it and even more precisely, I don't think there is a single auxiliary braking system on the market today that is truly proportional - in terms of what most of us believe the term to mean.  Yet, the term is continually used, albeit loosely, in product literature to sell the different braking systems.  It just makes no sense. 
 
rsalhus said:
Have you ever seen a mirror that works only part of the time? 
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Yeah, my bathroom mirror after showering.  ;D

As far as true proportional braking, I think a surge brake system, like on some boat trailers, comes pretty close. The brakes get applied harder as the back pressure on the trailer tongue increases. But boy, that can be a problem when backing up hill if you forget to disable the system.
 
I read the installation instructions for the BB Vantage Select and there is no mention of installing anything into the M/H except the remote.  Does the BB Vantage Select activate thru some type of mercury switch? 

I am looking at this system because I want to have 2 different toads, but I may be better off buying two separate AF1 or M&G systems.  I wonder if I would need two breakaway systems also. 

 
The Brake Buddy works with a mercury switch, or similar sensor, in the  box in the toad. There is no direct connection to the m/h except for the breadaway switch. The BB applies the brakes when it senses slowing.
 
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