Don't blame the salesman

Tom,

I'm with you. I'm too old to play games. If I can't get a deal I want I walk. It sure can be humorous to hear some of the pitches.

carjocky said:

Why is it always the salesmans fault because someone that is making a large purchase doesnt do their homework when buying a vehicle. It is NOT the salesmans job to do this for you. YOU should know what YOU need before you buy it. Dont make yourself look or feel better by blameing someone else. They have in EVERY vehicle made the ratings for what the vehicle can tow in the door jam.

And yes I am a car salesman.

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Well, I do admit the job of the salesman is to get your signature on the contract... And keep it there for a period of time which, it appears, varies from state to state (here in Michigan it's 72 hours)

But some thigns you can blame the salesman for.. For example.. My salesman told me the rig would have a specific engine in it, it even says as much in writing.. it has a different (Better as it turns out) engine in it.  He told me it had a couple of features which it does not have... In one case it took me a while to figure out why and I can retrofit.... If I choose to do so..  In the other case I already have retrofitted (Cost less than 10 bucks)

There is more.  But basically you can blame the salesman when he gives you false information,  Though in truth it's not always his fault, he may just be passing on the false information.

However we all know that used Belchfire Special was NOT driven by some little old lady who only drove it to church on Sunday, the Market on Wednesday and Aunt Martha's on Thanksgiving (Take off on "Barny's New Car" an Andy Griffith show episode,  It was a Ford in the TV show, and yes, it was Found On Road Dead)

Bob Buchanan said:

Carjocky:

>> And yes I am a car salesman.
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As mentioned in another post here, I have had good experiences and bad with car sales personnel -- and also RV sales people. So as in most professions, there are good and bad. I do agree that the buyer should be well educated when buying -- and should also know what the sales strategy is in order to deal effectively. Unfortunately, the later sometimes takes years and many bad deals to figure out - and some poor souls never figure it out. So here is my pet peeve -- and would interested in your response.

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I will do my best.....

The first car I purchased years ago without the help of my parents, introduced me to a sales technique that I still find -- and must outfox 50 some years later. I am initially greeted by a sales person on the lot. Actually, he/she is probably not called a sales person -- more like a greeter person. If I show some interest, almost automatically, I am being introduced to the next person in the chain. This is the one that asks the question, "What would you pay for this vehicle?" No matter what price I come up with, their response will be, "If I can get that price approved, would you buy the car today?" If I say yes, they have me fill out all the paper work involved to take to "the man" inside that makes those kinds of decisions.

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First thing I can say is that this is not the norm where I live and sell cars. I have seen this type of selling. I do not sell this way.

• BUT what is wrong with saying if you like this car and we can get the price you would like would you buy it? Selling is just that. Asking for the sale. It will show how serious you are.? Sales people have no problem spending 3-4 hours with a customer that is looking to buy a vehicle. Not saying that they HAVE to buy right then but at least be serious and are looking to buy. They do have a problem spending 3-4 hours with a person that is "just looking". This is how a sales person makes a living. They have every right to "qualify" you as a buyer or a looker.
• About filling out the paperwork. This is so the sales person can see if you can actually buy what you are looking at. Here again why should a sales person spend 3-4 hours finding the right price, vehicle etc. if the customers credit cannot buy yesterdays newspaper.

Part of this strategy is obviously to get me emotionally involved now with thoughts that I may be getting this vehicle for the price I can afford. After a bit, a new person comes into the little cubicle. This dude is called a "closer". He is the one that is trained to explain to you how ridiculous my offer was and to explain how much money the dealership has invested, and all that stuff.

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Okay lets chop this up a bit. Here is why this happens.

• Salesman didnt do his job. He didnt find the right vehicle for you at this point. And is trying to sell you something you dont really want.
• You make a ridiculous offer on this vehicle because of that. So lets face it. You too are playing the "game". So naturally what do you think the "closer" is going to say? He is going to explan how ridiculous your offer was. And lets face it you expected it because your offer was what it was because you knew they wouldnt take it.

If he plays his cards correctly, and examines and satisfies all of my "reasons I can't purchase" today -- he will have taken advantage of their success in getting me emotionally involved and into that little cubical.

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How is over comming your objections and satisfing your needs taking advantage of you?

The next part of the scenario is the one where the Closer becomes part of "my" team to get a price through "the main man". I have never seen this person and wonder if he/she really exist ?. So the Closer leaves for about 10 minutes - and returns with this long look on his face -- and explains that (though it not HIS fault, but rather "the Main Man's fault" that we must bring the price up a bit more. So the con goes on and on.

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This is where I would like to say profit is not a dirty word. I tell most of my customers the same thing. I have to make a profit on the vehicles. I dont need to get rich selling you a car but just like you when you go to work it is so you can make money to feed your family and pay your mortgage. You wouldnt go to work for free so please dont expect me too.

Does this sound familiar -- and why do most all dealerships play this old con? I don't play or let them play the game anymore -- but for what it's worth, this is one of the main reasons your professional has a bad name.

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You ask "why"? It is because when 99% of all customers walk on the lot they are lying and playing the game. They are on such a defensive mode that they are tough to deal with so that is why you see the "con".? Before the customer leaves thier house for the lot he has a "game plan" he is going to show the salesperson how to buy a vehicle.


Here is the best advice I can give you when looking to buy a vehicle. And if you follow it you will have alot better experiences when purchasing a vehicle.

• Treat the salesperson how you would like to be treated. Be honest and friendly. Not lying and defenseive.
• If you are not treated the same way LEAVE or ask for a new salesperson right away.
• You will be treated the same way. People that come and buy cars from me that are honest and friendly leave with a great buy. People that come in and are rude, defensive, lying leave paying alot more.

I agree that there is alot of "shady" sales people around. BUT that isnt limited to just car salesman. I have had bad experiences with sales people myself and the worst was a realitor.

My last comment will be this.
I DO NOT sell people cars. I HELP them buy one.

Jim Dick said:

Tom,

That's when I walk out the door. ;D

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Jim,

Not sure why you would walk out the door?? If the sales person asks "What would I have to do for you to purchase the vehicle?" Unless you were really not there to be buying one. Heck if I am out looking for a item and someone asks me this I tell them. Why? Because I am there to buy that item and if they can get the price that is fair I want it. So the only reason someone would leave is because they are scared they are actually going to buy it. Which is fine. Just let the salesperson know that you are not ready to buy and that you will need more information and facts before you can make a decision.

In my mind I separate the price negotiation from the product selection stage.  Yeah, haggling is hard on both parties and it has to a great extent become a stylized ritual, sort of like an old Turkish bazaar. E'nuff said on that score.

But many people, especially newcomers to RVs, ask for technical advice on the product and rely on the salesman for it.  RV salesman in general have a very poor track record in that department. Far too often, they don't know the product or the application (camping or touring) and are simply glib about how wonderful it will be.  No salesman wants to appear unknowledgeable or to create concern that might jeopardize the sale, so they simply gloss over their ignorance and typically repeat folklore they have heard concering RVs and their use. A few probably even lie, but that is true of any group of people.

When most of us buy a car, we at least have driven them and have an idea what the amenities are and how they operate. We have a pretty good idea what we want in terms of amenities, performance, fuel economy, safety features, etc.    This is often not true when the same person goes to buy an RV, which is different than a car and different than a stick house.  And that's where most RV salesmen fall short.

Good Morning, Car Jocky:

Thank you for your detailed response. I appreciate that.

>>BUT what is wrong with saying if you like this car and we can get the price you would like would you buy it? Selling is just that. Asking for the sale.
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What is wrong is that the salesperson has been instructed to lie right up front. They know full well there is no way they can get the car for that price -- but say, "Would you buy it at that price"? A phony question. If I'm in sales, I want a "YES" response to my questions -- but not if I lie in order to get it. The truth is, again -- the purpose is to get them "committed" and emotionally involved. Why not post the blue book value of the car on the car -- or have it on a list in the salesperson's possession so they could say instead something like, "The book value on this care is X number of dollars -- and that is the price range we are talking about". We both know the answer to that?

>> It will show how serious you are.? Sales people have no problem spending 3-4 hours with a customer that is looking to buy a vehicle. Not saying that they HAVE to buy right then but at least be serious and are looking to buy. They do have a problem spending 3-4 hours with a person that is "just looking". This is how a sales person makes a living. They have every right to "qualify" you as a buyer or a looker.
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I have no problem with that -- it's how you go about it that troubles me. You have them fill out the paperwork just after going thru the phony game of getting them committed based on a bogus offer. Are you not admitting that this is done for the emotional commitment -- at least in part?

>>You make a ridiculous offer on this vehicle because of that. So lets face it. You too are playing the "game". So naturally what do you think the "closer" is going to say? He is going to explain how ridiculous your offer was. And lets face it you expected it because your offer was what it was because you knew they wouldn't take it.
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Nonsense, Carjocky. The ridiculous offer was not the intention of the buyer when the conversation began. It was "promoted" by the salesman -- and you know that. One time when asked, "What would or could you pay for this car?", and I in response quoted a price that I knew was thousands below "wholesale" -- and he naturally responded, "If I can get if for you at that price, would you buy today, and so on and so on". I then told him I don't deal with phony sales techniques and walked. Wouldn't it have been nice if he would have said, "Here's the book value -- so this is the price range we are talking about . . ."

>> How is over comming your objections and satisfing your needs taking advantage of you?
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None -- it's just that it's enveloped within a phone con. And I have no problem with your making a profit. It's when you make it as a result of the process we're discussing that bothers me.

>> You ask "why"? It is because when 99% of all customers walk on the lot they are lying and playing the game. They are on such a defensive mode that they are tough to deal with so that is why you see the "con".? Before the customer leaves thier house for the lot he has a "game plan" he is going to show the salesperson how to buy a vehicle.
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Why do you suppose potential customers are in that frame of mind? I contend that "You" (not you personally) started it -- and have created the dealer reputation for doing it.

>> Here is the best advice I can give you when looking to buy a vehicle. And if you follow it you will have alot better experiences when purchasing a vehicle.
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Thanks for that -- but I modify it a bit. I wouldn't tell a salesperson how I want to be treated. I wait and find out where they are coming from. I can then adjust accordingly. Here's my approach.

o I find out exactly what the book value is on the vehicle I am looking for. The last time was a few years back when I wanted a Used Jeep Cherokee to tow. I got this from several sources and printed them out on the '96 and '97 models. I would rarely trust a dealer to tell me what a car is worth.

o I determine exactly what I able to pay and what I will pay "before" I enter a lot -- or deal with an individual.

o The next steps happen in sequence based on the results of the preceding step. If looking and examining the vehicle satisfies me as to the one I want - I then ask questions such as do they have the maintenance and body work history (has it been hit and repainted anywhere kinda questions). And then a test drive if all is well so far.

o If this is the car I want, I make a legitimate and fair offer. When the Closer greets me, I explain that I am ready to write a check for this amount, that I only allow one trip to that mysterious "main man", and if my offer is rejected, I walk.

The nonsense then begins when the Closer returns? -- explaining why the price must be higher and so forth. On the jeep, the Closer mentioned that there was NO WAY I could find that vehicle for my bid price anywhere else. He was surprised when I then laid on the table in front of him 5 different Internet Ads with price quotes from dealers and individuals very close to my offer - within the cit limits of Sacramento. His response was, "Well, I see you have done your home work."

As per usual, he then said they just couldn't do it unless I upped the bid by $700.00. We shook hands and I headed for the door. The young and obviously new lot guy came with me and seemed very depressed because of the lost sale. I told him not to worry -- in that they are not going to let me get away and that my offer was a good offer.? By the time I got to the edge of the lot -- the Closer came running over explaining how he had successfully talked the Main Man into the sale at my price.

>>My last comment will be this. I DO NOT sell people cars. I HELP them buy one.
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I believe that and appreciate your responding to my questions here.

carjocky said:

Jim,

Not sure why you would walk out the door?? If the sales person asks "What would I have to do for you to purchase the vehicle?" Unless you were really not there to be buying one. Heck if I am out looking for a item and someone asks me this I tell them. Why? Because I am there to buy that item and if they can get the price that is fair I want it. So the only reason someone would leave is because they are scared they are actually going to buy it. Which is fine. Just let the salesperson know that you are not ready to buy and that you will need more information and facts before you can make a decision.

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I had an experience where I ventured into an RV dealership "just looking". This was told to the salesman up front. The unit in which I was interested was locked so I HAD to have a salesman with me. Before I knew it there were two of them in the coach and we were headed towards the interstate. After our "test drive" we found ourselves in an office where the first salesman pitched the infamous "what can we do to get you into this RV today?" After telling him several times that we were not ready to buy he disappeared down the hall for several minutes. I would have left immediately but we had come through a rabbit warren to get there so we waited until he returned. We finally got our message across that we were not going to buy today! From then on I refused to deal with anyone that uses those tactics.

Where we finally purchased our rig the sales personnel let us spend all the time we wanted in the rig with no interference from them. We eventually purchased TWO rigs from them and I now work part time for them as most of them are good people. It cost the salesman no time as he was free to tend to other's needs. He eventually got the sale and the commission.

If you will reread my post you will see that I said:

>>We have all dealt with salesman at RV dealerships that either didn't know what they were talking about or were saying whatever they had to to make the sale. That doesn't make them bad, but it does make them dishonest, same goes for car salesman.<<

I was NOT referring to the many honest or finformed car and RV salesmen. I have a good friend who sells new and used RV's in the Indianapolis area. He does his best to help people find what they want or need. That said, even he will admit that there are some salesmen at his dealership that will do whatever it takes to make a sale.

Woody

I still think all Salespeople should go through the Saturn school of salesmanship. Not that they don't have "closers" and will try to sell you the dealership in the finace office. But the salespeople on the floor are VERY easy to deal with and I have NEVER had a Saturn salesman ask me What will it take for you to buy today. Mostly it is just, "take your time sir and I will be around to answer any questions for you."

I have had two Saturns and am thinking about getting a new one.

Woody:

Woody said:

If you will reread my post you will see that I said:

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Not sure if you meant this for me -- but if so, please read Reply #16 dated September 12 below. 

Bob,

No, that reply was not meant for you. I read the post where you said when you reread my message you understood what I was trying to say. Sorry for the confusion.

Woody