Yet another bad solenoid

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Art - interesting picture.  I attempted to disassemble one of the failed Trombetta solenoids a couple of years ago but lost interest when it was going to involve chisels and a drill.  I think curiosity will get the best of me with this one and I will get it apart and take some pictures.
 
John,

Were you having premature failures with the Trombetta "Bear" Series Contactors?

What Trombetta contactor part series is Winnebago installing as OE?

http://www.trombetta.com/dc-contactor-products.cfm?id=8

Charlie
 
John Canfield said:
Charlie - pretty certain that's the contactor.  I'll have to look at it to see what the exact part number is.
Click to expand...

Thanks John. Please check part number..

Also, am I correct to see this appears to be primarily a Winne CAT vehicle issue? ???

I have 44,000 miles on the contactor in my gasser...no problems.

Charlie
 
Pubtym said:
Also, am I correct to see this appears to be primarily a Winne CAT vehicle issue? ???
Click to expand...

Could be limited to Freightliner chassis's - Winnie might use something else for the Ford or WH chassis, don't really know.
 
Mine is a Ford chassis and it uses the problem relay.
  John has anyone had any trouble with the other relay (battery disconnect with the fuse in it) right next to the problem one? It supplies the DC power to the whole coach so it must have a substantial drain on it at times. I may have missed it but I have not read about a lot of problems with it. It is a bigger & better looking relay. I don't know its current rating. I will be interested in how Johns new relay holds out. Keep us informed John. Art
 
I have WH chassis. I just checked the electronics compartment with all batts.. I see an in line fuse but no contactor.. ??? I'll have to look at wire diagrams to find location of WH installed contactor.

Charlie
 
Art In Mobile said:
  John has anyone had any trouble with the other relay (battery disconnect with the fuse in it) right next to the problem one?
Click to expand...

Art - my house disconnect solenoid (or contactor) must still be okay.  I think I have only operated it once or twice since we have owned the rig.  I suspect arcing of the contacts due to frequent cycling of the relay causes failure of the other solenoid.  With light use, the disconnect relay might last the life of the RV.
 
John
I use mine a lot (house disconnect solenoid) as the Rv is in my back yard & I don't want the charger always charging the battery's . So far so good. As it is a different style maybe it will last Art
 
John Canfield said:
 I suspect arcing of the contacts due to frequent cycling of the relay causes failure of the other solenoid.  
Click to expand...

John,

a. I believe a teardown of the failed contactors is essential to determine cause. I have done teardowns of White Rodgers junk solenoids. I found the problems..moisture..internal corrosion. Usually a Dremel tool will prove excellent to the teardown.

b. With the Trombetta's "Bear" highly IP certified..I do not think corrosion is the internal failure problem....and I question you are exceeding the component switching life of the contractor in only 10,000 miles.

c. My gut feeling is the contactor internal failure is a consequence of continuous bad charge input or excessive current draw output. What about your alternator? Is it rated high enough? Has it been repaired-replaced?

Charlie
 
Charlie..

a) - I think I have enough tools with me (including a Dremel) to disassemble the solenoid, so that is the goal

b) - don't think corrosion could have been a factor - the compartment is always dry (thanks in no small part to the heat of my Xantrex RS2000)

c) - alternator is the stock 120 amp (or whatever) and it is original.  The charge relays (contactors, solenoids ..) of Blue Sea will operate when the source voltage reaches a certain point, and drop at a certain point.  The Trombetta probably operates with the same scheme - chassis battery reads above a certain voltage, contactor is operated which bridges both banks.  Voltage on the chassis bank drops below a certain point (don't want to discharge one bank into another), the contactor releases which isolated the two banks.  The fact that many others have had problems with the same part leads me to believe the culprit is the Trombetta part


Edit:  added a couple pictures of the Blue Seas #9112 replacement
 

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John,

Seems to me 120 amps on an alternator is a little short...have you had an alternator test done? ???

Please send pics of teardown of contactor...and your rationale-assessment of failure via pics..

I see the contactor being the "middle guy" with out of limits input (low volts/amps-Alternator) or high draw (big time surge amps) from some MH system. Middle guy gets fried with out of limits factor either input or transfer to output demand.

Personal opinion...I see "Premium Baloney" in the argument from whoever that 14V causes self destruct of any contactor. Lower 8-10 volts delivery and high system demand yes........14 Volts delivery and failure.."Baloney" ;D

Many others had problems? Freightliner folks? ???

Blue Seas #9112 looks good...I'll assume you liberally coat all terminals with battery anti corrosion gunk/protector after install?

Charlie
 
John Canfield said:
Charlie..

a) - I think I have enough tools with me (including a Dremel) to disassemble the solenoid, so that is the goal

b) - don't think corrosion could have been a factor - the compartment is always dry (thanks in no small part to the heat of my Xantrex RS2000)

c) - alternator is the stock 120 amp (or whatever) and it is original.  The charge relays (contactors, solenoids ..) of Blue Sea will operate when the source voltage reaches a certain point, and drop at a certain point.  The Trombetta probably operates with the same scheme - chassis battery reads above a certain voltage, contactor is operated which bridges both banks.  Voltage on the chassis bank drops below a certain point (don't want to discharge one bank into another), the contactor releases which isolated the two banks.  The fact that many others have had problems with the same part leads me to believe the culprit is the Trombetta part


Edit:  added a couple pictures of the Blue Seas #9112 replacement
Click to expand...

For all, I'd appreciate discussions of failed contactor parts include Manufacturer, Contactor Family, 12 Volt intermittent or 12 Volt continouous and the specific part number...

Otherwise...apples could mean oranges..
Thanks, Charlie
 
Charlie
In the post I put in there is a photo of the original one that came in my 2006 Voyage that I dissembled. A pair of side cuts makes quick work of getting the top off. It is a Trombetta 936-1215-011-21. It had a coil reading of 14.2 Ohms. It is mounted in a very dry compartment. It is a continuous 12 volt solenoid. If you look at the photo you can see the very small pit marks on the posts. That is normal. What is not normal is the black soot like coating on the copper posts. It is thick enough that to get a continuity reading with my meter from the outside of the post(where the threads are) to the flat spot anywhere the black area is, I had to push the point of the tester leads into the copper. This coating over the copper is the culprit. The solenoid would still click but just could not make contact threw the coating. I hope this helps. Art
 
Art In Mobile said:
Charlie
In the post I put in there is a photo of the original one that came in my 2006 Voyage that I dissembled. A pair of side cuts makes quick work of getting the top off. It is a Trombetta 936-1215-011-21. It had a coil reading of 14.2 Ohms. It is mounted in a very dry compartment. It is a continuous 12 volt solenoid. If you look at the photo you can see the very small pit marks on the posts. That is normal. What is not normal is the black soot like coating on the copper posts. It is thick enough that to get a continuity reading with my meter from the outside of the post(where the threads are) to the flat spot anywhere the black area is, I had to push the point of the tester leads into the copper. This coating over the copper is the culprit. The solenoid would still click but just could not make contact threw the coating. I hope this helps. Art
Click to expand...

Outstanding info Art..exactly the details needed. ;D

Helpful added info needed...what is the difference between a 12Volt Continuous and 12Volt Intermittent solenoid...why the difference?
???

There is a significant spec difference on the voltage spread for each and their individual applications.  ???

There also appears to be significant differences in the expected duty cycle life spans... ??? Why. ???

What's your opinion on the cause of the black soot coating? ???

Have you considered calling Trombetta Tech Line for an tech engineer's eval of your finding and the tech's recommendations? As you know...problems like these boil down to "cause and effect". You see the effect of the soot..let's determine the cause.

Charlie
 
Clay L said:
Mine has been acting squirrely for a while. Right now it's working again.
I plan to replace it with the Trombetta solenoid with the silver contacts and 14 volt rating that was discussed in the thread you mentioned.

I'll do that in CO in a few weeks  at my SILs place where I do a lot of my maintenance. She has a commercial peach orchard in Palisade, CO and has put in a full hook-up RV site for us.  ;D
Click to expand...

Clay,

Where's the solenoid on your WH 35N? ???

Charlie
 
Pubtym said:
Clay,

Where's the solenoid on your WH 35N? ???

Charlie
Click to expand...

I found it..

It's the Trombetta Metal DC Contactor, #936-1215-011-21, 12 Volt Continuous

Trombetta indicates it was "completely retoolled".... hmmmm? :eek: "Hello Houston?" ???

http://www.trombetta.com/cm/pdfs/metal-housing-family.pdf

Charlie
 
I believe that the alternator on the Vectra/Horizon is 160amp--at least that's what I've got on mine with my Cat C7.
 
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