Workhorse Brake Recall

[miket]

The latest info points to a longer wait for parts than earlier reported. Testing is ongoing in the desert. I suspect it will be 2010 before the fix is available.


New info shows the piston is swelling cone shaped, with the fattest portion toward the pad. The thinking now is if someone has new pads installed, the piston is forced further back into the bore and can stick when the brakes are applied and get hot. The phenolic has shown it expands when hot. This may explain brake failure after pad replacement

[FrontrangeRVer]

Mike, I believe we are still under the belief that the phenolic piston has been the culprit because of the swelling in the bore during the presence of moisture, so the recall will involve Bosch calipers with steel pistons.  These steel pistons will eliminate any swelling in the bore.  Please correct me if this is wrong.

The statement about the swelling causing cone shaped phenolic pistons with newly installed pads is definately new information, and we appreciate the heads up!  Maybe that explains some of the very low mileage failures.  

I wonder what the recall holdup could be, as I hear that Bosch has completed the calipers, and Workhorse is standing ready for the market implementation.  If you hear anything else regarding this, please let us know.....all info is good info!  

[miket]

I had a conference call yesterday (Friday) and Bosch is still doing testing. The word I have received is that once Bosch decides on the method of "fix" it may take an additional 7 to 8 weeks for production to have the numbers needed for the recall. What I have been told is that Workhorse is not the hold up on this important issue.

What I do know as of now, the calipers will not have pads installed. Either the original pads will be used, or new ones, depending on the condition of the original pads. Rotors are not included unless they have been damaged by a caliper failure.

A copy of the guide lines on the recall should be posted at "the other site". I do not visit that site anymore, so I'm not sure if it has been posted there yet.

I also asked if Workhorse could post copies of recalls and other important notices on their web site, and it has been kicked to their IT department. It probably will take a while before it gets put on.

I was told that I can post or make available any Service Bulletins. Also any other info that is cleared to release. I have a pdf copy of the latest release, but I don't have a place to post the almost 1meg file.



I am sorry that this info is changing and I still do not know when parts and the "fix" will be available. Hopefully some of the proposals suggested to WH will get on their web site and elsewhere.





I just checked the other site, the campaign  50902 -1 is not posted there yet, however the 2009 chassis guide is, but that is going to be revised to include a list of campaigns to date, plus some other minor mods to it.   

[Tom]

I have a pdf copy of the latest release, but I don't have a place to post the almost 1meg file.

Mike,

Email the file to me (click the 'envelope icon beneath my avatar) and I'll get it up on this site, provided there are no copyright restrictions Thanks.

[miket]

It's on the way  second emial is the one -- forgot to attach on first, fat fingered send key --

[Tom]

Got it Mike, thanks. Here's the direct link to the file. I'll get it into the library later. I also dropped a note in our Industry News and Recalls board here.

[sheltie]

Mike - thanks for the update, it is very helpful.  Just out of curiosity, to which other site are you referring? 

[FrontrangeRVer]

Thanks so much Mike and Tom for the link. 

No, I dont go to the "other site" (irv2) either.  I'm looking for facts and not pom pom waving! 

Mike, VERY GOOD and VALUABLE new info...thanks again!

[sheltie]

Thanks so much Mike and Tom for the link. 

No, I dont go to the "other site" (irv2) either.  I'm looking for facts and not pom pom waving! 

Mike, VERY GOOD and VALUABLE new info...thanks again!

I guess I missed the "pom-pom waving".  What I have seen on that site regarding WH and Winnebago/Itasca related threads have been very valuable to me.  Actually, I thought Mike might have been referring to RV.net, but I guess not.

[Tom]

FWIW all the staff and I here have tried to do for the last 16 years is serve the need of our forum members, and to stay neutral. We don't always succeed, and (IMHO too often) we take some stick for our efforts, but we keep trying.

I believe that miket's appearance on the scene was a welcome event. Contrary to some of the "anti-WH Ambassador" comments I'd read, Mike has been very open about his communications with WH.

Personally, I feel for all the folks who experienced these problems; I can't imagine what it's like to drive down the road in a coach with the nagging feeling that the brakes might not function as expected at some random time. It appears that WH is attempting to do the right thing, and that Mike is a good conduit for information.

BTW we're not sponsored by any manufacturer, and are therefore able to remain unbiased. To take a line from a TV host, this is "The no-spin zone".

[miket]

There may be some confusion since two of the Workhorse Ambassadors are Mike. I am miket, the other is DriVer on iRV2. I try to give the facts without the spin and glitter. Basically I am a Doubting Thomas until I can verify what I' have been told.

The above info was released at the Workhorse Chassis Club Rally in Greenville, Ohio in July, but a print version was not available until now.

[miket]

Why change brake fluid?

Brake Fluid Info

Workhorse also recommends using Dot 4 fluid with over 500 degree boiling point   Ford has a fluid that meets this requirement.

DO NOT USE DOT 5

[FrontrangeRVer]

Contrary to some of the "anti-WH Ambassador" comments I'd read, Mike has been very open about his communications with WH.

Tom, you are correct.  MikeT is very open about his communciations with WH. 

The other two Ambassadors border on rediculous! 

[sheltie]

Tom, you are correct.  MikeT is very open about his communciations with WH. 

The other two Ambassadors border on rediculous! 

Again, I completely disagree with you in your last sentence.  Driver has been extremely helpful to those of us who are not mechanically inclined (and to those who are) and has taken the time to explain things in laymen's terms.  He is obviously passionate about WH and makes no bones about it.  I'm sure miket is no less so.  Your comment about "the two other Ambassadors borders on rediculous" is not only misspelled, but is itself ridiculous.  Don't mistake knowledge for "pompom waving".

[Tom]

OK guys, let's not let this discussion go spiraling down.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Absolutely Tom!  I didn't know I had misspelled a word....I've learned my lesson and will run spell check from now on!   

[FrontrangeRVer]

................. should be posted at "the other site". I do not visit that site anymore, ......................  

I'm sorry, I thought you were talking about irv2.  

[miket]

I decided to check if the latest info was posted, the 50902 bulletin ---- it is posted as 50901 which is the Interim Notice ---  it is not as complete as the posting here, the pix are missing now---

[ralphross]

 ::)This recall seems suspicious in a few ways. I have been involved in a few RV recalls and they were always flat out recalls. This 'interim recall' seem to try to limit liability for Workhorse but isn't too helpful to consumers, since you can get all the symptoms listed in the recall but an inspection of the calipers may only result in a position by Workhorse that says the calipers are okay so Workhorse won't pay the $400 for the inspection due to the failure caused by their bad calipers (yikes this is a paradox). I had a failure while on the road that exhibited all the symptons listed in the interim recall letter, but the calipers escaped damage (maybe because I sensed the problem (caused by the bad design) and pulled off and when the brake pedal continued to go to the floor I had the MH towed.  So I called Workhorse and I think they were a little rude and curt, but listened to my concerns.  I noticed on another forum that there may be a dispute on who is picking up the cost of the repairs which makes me wonder if the new parts are designed and available but we all may be waiting for the accountability on the costs to be ironed out.  Anyway this stinks because you have the interim recall that appears to maybe remove injury liability from Workhorse while you don't know whether to take a chance to use the MH or wait for the final notice.  I was told clearly that the final recall will get the bad parts replaced and Workhorse will pay (except for your new brake fluid). People will have to decide if they want to avoid Workhorse chassis MH's for their next purchase. I think this recall is being handled very poorly from a consumer and safety point of view.

[jc2]

People will have to decide if they want to avoid Workhorse chassis MH's for their next purchase. (Ralphross)

From what I've been reading on various forums, the WorkHorse chassis will not be considered by a lot of people.  I think the ultimate loser in this recall will indeed be WH.

[Photog]

I think the ultimate loser in this recall will indeed be WH.

I don't think it is the recall, but rather very bad customer service that is the real problem at WH.  I agree that WH will be the ultimate loser.

[miket]

The actual recall has not happened yet. WH tried to inform owners of what the signs are of a caliper hanging up and will issue the recall when Bosch has made the parts for the NHTSA recall to be completed. The purpose of the Interim notice was to inform the owners of the problems.

There has been enough said about this issue, when the parts are available, then you will be notified and can schedule an appointment for the calipers.

This subject has been beaten to death on all the boards, there will be no further comment from me until new information is available. The Interim Notice and 50902 is posted at various boards.

[jc2]

The actual recall has not happened yet. WH tried to inform owners of what the signs are of a caliper hanging up and will issue the recall when Bosch has made the parts for the NHTSA recall to be completed. The purpose of the Interim notice was to inform the owners of the problems.

There has been enough said about this issue, when the parts are available, then you will be notified and can schedule an appointment for the calipers.

This subject has been beaten to death on all the boards, there will be no further comment from me until new information is available. The Interim Notice and 50902 is posted at various boards.

We still luv ya MikeT.

[miket]

  I feel the Luv     

[FrontrangeRVer]

We still luv ya MikeT.

Yep!...keep the info coming!

[miket]

     OK   I just asked Tom to add to the library "Why change Brake Fluid PDF" where Workhorse in Print states to change brake fluid every 2 years or 24,000 miles. It is finally in print, it ain't in your manuals, but it is in print!!!      It's in Red, not black and white ---

[Tom]

Thanks Mike. Here's a direct link to the file.

[sheltie]

For those of us - especially me - who are not mechanically inclined, should I change my brake fluid every other year, or will every 24,000 miles suffice.  Sorry if this seems to be a dumb question, but it isn't intended to be.  I'm almost at the 24,000 marks and have already had it changed three times in five years.  If I don't have to as much I'd prefer not to.

[miket]

Note: Workhorse Custom Chassis recommends fluid check with
replacement ever two (2) years or 24,000 miles. (Whichever comes first)

[sheltie]

Note: Workhorse Custom Chassis recommends fluid check with
replacement ever two (2) years or 24,000 miles. (Whichever comes first)

Thanks, Mike.  It's nice to know that I was doing something right, even if I didn't realize it!

[zukIzzy]

How can a sealed system have moisture contamination??? I will buy dirty or burned but unless the cap is off a lot I am struggling to see how the water gets in there.

wayne

[Photog]

How can a sealed system have moisture contamination?

Wayne,

It's not a sealed system.  There is a vent on the fluid cap.

[zukIzzy]

Wayne,

It's not a sealed system.  There is a vent on the fluid cap.

Nope there is a vent on the cap but there is an expandable seal between that and the fluid. Brake fluid does absorb moisture quickly so I agree it would need changing if exposed to the air but it is not. In fact I would and have changed fluid if the cap was left off for more then a few days.

Wayne

[FrontrangeRVer]

It's my understanding that the Workhorse brake fluid reservour is a sealed system.  Every time you remove the cap(s), you somewhat contaminate the fluid by allowing moisture to enter the reservour.

[Photog]

Wayne and Mark,

I stand corrected.  I thought the vent hole was sufficient for moisture to enter the system.

[zukIzzy]

It's my understanding that the Workhorse brake fluid reservour is a sealed system.  Every time you remove the cap(s), you somewhat contaminate the fluid by allowing moisture to enter the reservour.

Why would you remove the cap on a translucent MC reservoir? thats why they are see thru so you don't have to remove the cap. I try to never remove the brake or clutch res cap if possible due to moisture contamination. I was told that years ago by a pikes peak racer, they suffer big brake fluid boiling issues I am told.

Wayne

[miket]

This is from the info I and Tom posted and the links are on Pg one of this thread -- a partial posting of the prior info ---


Brake Fluid Preventive Maintenance
Many experts have long recommended changing the brake fluid every year or two for preventative maintenance. Their
rationale is based on the fact that glycol-based brake fluid starts to absorb moisture from the moment it is put in the
system. The fluid attracts moisture through microscopic pores in rubber hoses, past seals and exposure to the air. The
problem is obviously worse in wet climates where humidity is high.
After only a year of service, the brake fluid in the average vehicle may contain as much as two percent water. After 18
months, the level of contamination can be as high as three percent. And after several years of service, it is not unusual to
find brake fluid that contains as much as seven to eight percent water.

[winnie35]

This is from the info I and Tom posted and the links are on Pg one of this thread -- a partial posting of the prior info ---


Brake Fluid Preventive Maintenance
Many experts have long recommended changing the brake fluid every year or two for preventative maintenance. Their
rationale is based on the fact that glycol-based brake fluid starts to absorb moisture from the moment it is put in the
system. The fluid attracts moisture through microscopic pores in rubber hoses, past seals and exposure to the air. The
problem is obviously worse in wet climates where humidity is high.
After only a year of service, the brake fluid in the average vehicle may contain as much as two percent water. After 18
months, the level of contamination can be as high as three percent. And after several years of service, it is not unusual to
find brake fluid that contains as much as seven to eight percent water.

Do you have any info you can post that states this workhorse brake problem is cured by rpl brake fluid?

[FrontrangeRVer]

Why would you remove the cap on a translucent MC reservoir? thats why they are see thru so you don't have to remove the cap. I try to never remove the brake or clutch res cap if possible due to moisture contamination. I was told that years ago by a pikes peak racer, they suffer big brake fluid boiling issues I am told.

Wayne

I cant see through mine!  I have no idea what the level is......   

[zukIzzy]

Well then you may want to take your off to check levels then I have a ford and I can see thru to check the level, in fact they are so close to the bottom of the dash it does no good to take the caps off and when I do need to add fluid I do it with the hose on my preasure bleeder or a syringe.

I think I will have some brake fluid tested when I send in my next oil sample just to see how acurate those claims are. It is dry here so I suspect I will have less moisture then the article claims.

wayne

[carson]

  Moisture in Brake fluid...how does one know?

There are ways of checking, this informative link may shed some light on the subject.

carson FL

[miket]

Since it is known that contaminated brake fluid causes the piston to swell, clean fluid should not cause any piston swelling.  My 45K miles with fluid flush every two years seems to prove to me that clean fluid prevents the problem, Also, the fact that it took at least three years before the problem came to light would suggest that contaminated fluid is the cause.

The fact that NHTSA found that the piston swelled and Bosch is testing replacements for it should help point the way to maintaining the current calipers is a fluid flush.

[winnie35]

Since it is known that contaminated brake fluid causes the piston to swell, clean fluid should not cause any piston swelling.  My 45K miles with fluid flush every two years seems to prove to me that clean fluid prevents the problem, Also, the fact that it took at least three years before the problem came to light would suggest that contaminated fluid is the cause.

The fact that NHTSA found that the piston swelled and Bosch is testing replacements for it should help point the way to maintaining the current calipers is a fluid flush.

I asked if you had any data that proved changing the fluid would prevent their brake problems before they start and a cure for workhorse brake problems once we have had a lockup?  Since you seem to report that changing the fluid is the cure all , then nhtsa and bosch needs to be notified to stop making calipers and just send out letters to all mh owners that are under recall to just change your fluid. We camp in a group that no one has ever changed their brake fluid and 2 of these mh's were mfg in the mid 90's. The only diff in their mh's compared to mine is theirs are fords. How would you answer my question about my second brake failure and FLUID CHANGE was followed about 4 weeks later with another failure. Hey new parts and clead fluid. I would say by now my fluid has been changed 4 or 5 times.  I will end with this. If you folks want to change your fluid  daily then go for it because its cheap and easy but dont let anyone from wh try to convince you that's its the cure all fix all. REmember these were the same guys and co that were fighting us tooth and nail and saying there wasnt a workhorse brake problem, just problems with the drivers. I guess workhorse got all the bad drivers and ford got all the good ones. IMO

[miket]

Re-reading your post, that is not what you asked as far as after the fact failure. My statement is if you have not had a problem then more than likely changing the fluid will greatly diminish the possibility of having a problem verses not doing anything. There has not been any testing to verify this, but most of the failures seem to be on the East coast, in high humidity areas and a lack of use.

If you had new calipers installed and those failed, then I agree something is rotten in Denmark, as the saying goes. I'd save my paper work and submit or re-submit it to Workhorse.

Since Ford has switched from TRW calipers to Bosch on some chassis, how long before Ford has a problem? Workhorse has not had brake problems on the P series, the W16, W18, W24, and W25.5 that use other than Bosch calipers. I would suspect that owners of those chassis do not drive any different than the people with Bosch calipers.


As I posted, 45K, fluid change every two and no problems. I did the same maintenance on my 96 P30, flushing fluid and cleaning, lubing caliper slides.

Maybe it's something in my local New England area, but we've known for years about contaminated brake fluid and its ability to suck up moisture .

[FrontrangeRVer]

if you have not had a problem then more than likely changing the fluid will greatly diminish the possibility of having a problem verses not doing anything. There has not been any testing to verify this, but most of the failures seem to be on the East coast, in high humidity areas and a lack of use.

I think MikeT's statement here is VERY important, and I have changed my fluid last year at approx 18K miles, and I will this Spring at 25K.  

Nothing is for certain here....we all know the problem is with the pistons sticking due to expanding due to moisture intrusion, and the BEST WAY (at this time, the only way) to avoid a possible brake failure is to change the fluid.

I did buy some "Speedbleeders" to  install on my unit in the Spring, for future fluid changes.  If you would like info on these, PM me, as I am not interested in promoting his advertising on another site.

I think MikeT has given some good advise about this fluid changes, and while he might not be able to help with the re-imbursement issues some are having with Workhorse, at least he hasn't called those owners/forum members "Jerry Springer Fans"!  

[BobFl]

How refreshing to find this site!

Miket, your approach to disseminating the info about the brake situation is great!  Thank You.  No sermons, no scolding, no accusations, thank you!

[John Canfield]

Hi Bob - welcome to rvforum!

[FrontrangeRVer]

Hi Bob - welcome to rvforum!

Echoing John's sentiments!  Welcome Bob!

[BobFl]

Thanks for the welcome fellas.

As you probably realize, I've been following this brake issue for quite some time and seldom post[RMS on irv-2] but,last October renewed my interest after my pedal went to the floor.   Fortunately I was inside our development and traveling at a speed where I could safely down-shift and creep to our house.

When I thought about the trip we had just completed from Glen NH to Florida and all the terrible situations that could have occurred, it was sobering.  Of course there was the financial end of getting my W-22 repaired and the thought of putting the same type calipers back on, which wasn't reassuring, to say the least.  Then I forgot to take pictures! How could I forget the pictures?

So I guess my point is---that it sure makes the drive from NH to Fl. a bit more stressful and I wish Workhorse had acknowledged their problem without being pushed by the Feds.  I don't know if anything would have been acknowledged without Rick and Cheryl, and JDSR.

[bomre340]

I have a 2003 Adventurer on a W22 Chassis with 18,000 miles on it. Yesterday at the tail end of a 3000 miles trip I experienced total brake failure with no advanced warning. The brakes have worked flawlessly since new and up to the point of failure. The brake pedal went to the floor and no brakes until pumped. After cooling off, all was fine again. The temperature was about 90 degrees and I was in desert conditions. Although I was lucky to survive the incident without a negative outcome, this is an outrageously dangerous condition to have in an 8 ton vehicle and is totally unacceptable!

[winnie35]

I think MikeT's statement here is VERY important, and I have changed my fluid last year at approx 18K miles, and I will this Spring at 25K.  

Nothing is for certain here....we all know the problem is with the pistons sticking due to expanding due to moisture intrusion, and the BEST WAY (at this time, the only way) to avoid a possible brake failure is to change the fluid.

I did buy some "Speedbleeders" to  install on my unit in the Spring, for future fluid changes.  If you would like info on these, PM me, as I am not interested in promoting his advertising on another site.

I think MikeT has given some good advise about this fluid changes, and while he might not be able to help with the re-imbursement issues some are having with Workhorse, at least he hasn't called those owners/forum members "Jerry Springer Fans"!  

As far as the jerry comment, I hope he is talking about me because that means he is losing sleep over this. He lost and we the consumer won.

[miket]

Total brake loss as described points to water in the brake fluid. As I and others have stated, flush the brake fluid. A 2003 with only 18 K miles certainly needs a flush. I also think your 8 tons may be a little light for a W22. I'm a W20 and run about 9 1/2 tons.

From the Interim letter,

Are there warning indicators that precede a brake failure?
   The defective brake calipers on certain motor home chassis may cause hot brakes, brake drag, overheating, melting of the anti-lock brake sensor, and in a small number of cases, boiling brake fluid, which may result in loss of brake function.

f.   The brake pedal feels mushy or goes to the floor -this is indicative that the brake fluid in the vehicle is possibly boiling and therefore the brake system losing its effectiveness.


You can have the fluid flushed any place that will do the work. Unfortunately, WH will not pay for a flush.



The consumer, We RVers have not won, no fix yet, compensation ?         

[winnie35]

Total brake loss as described points to water in the brake fluid. As I and others have stated, flush the brake fluid. A 2003 with only 18 K miles certainly needs a flush. I also think your 8 tons may be a little light for a W22. I'm a W20 and run about 9 1/2 tons.

From the Interim letter,

Are there warning indicators that precede a brake failure?
   The defective brake calipers on certain motor home chassis may cause hot brakes, brake drag, overheating, melting of the anti-lock brake sensor, and in a small number of cases, boiling brake fluid, which may result in loss of brake function.

f.   The brake pedal feels mushy or goes to the floor -this is indicative that the brake fluid in the vehicle is possibly boiling and therefore the brake system losing its effectiveness.


You can have the fluid flushed any place that will do the work. Unfortunately, WH will not pay for a flush.



The consumer, We RVers have not won, no fix yet, compensation ?        

Oh we won and we won big. This recall will have to be resolved. If we/you are waiting on reimbursement from wh dont hold your breath. If they are going to fight us on this brake problem then I wouldn't hold my breath on reimbursement. Thats just the kind of co they are IMO. We wouldn't have this recall if it wasn't for nhtsa. We tried to play nice and wh would have no part of it. I guess they figured the other amb could convince us its not a wh problem and we would let it go( and in some cases it worked).All they would say is we(workhorse) don't have a problem. BTW, the way I read the Interim letter is if we have had a problem(such as boiling brake fluid) change the fluid. I agree 100% but nowhere does it state that changing the fluid is the cause or cure for this wh brake problem. I would hate for someone to get a false sense of security thinking all they have to do is change the fluid and drive it like you stole it.

[bomre340]

Last week I experienced total brake failure at 18,000 miles on a 2003 Winnebago 35U on a W22 Workhorse chassis. I purchased the coach in Ohio and drove it back to California. All was fine until 70 miles from home, I experienced the brake pedal going to the floor and no brakes. After pulling over, I did a walk around to find right rear wheel hot and smoke coming from brake. I let the unit cool down for 2 hours and everything came back to normal. I took the coach to Workhorse dealer and after inspection they said the computer read-out indicated that I was "riding the brakes" therefore no warranty (recall) coverage. Needless to say, I was not riding the brakes so I called Workhorse. They were very defensive, probably from dealing with a lot of upset customers, but acknowledged this vehicle was going to be part of the recall and what I had experienced, including the result of the inspection, was well documented and would be fixed once the actual recall was here. But, at this time they would not cover any of the cost for inspection, damage and or replacement of brake fluid although they said purging the brake system of old fluid "helps." They further told me that the recall "fix" that was scheduled for this fall has been delayed again and will more than likely, not be available until spring of 2010. Customer relations were not sympathetic to my situation and stood firm that Workhorse is not going to do anything about trying to fix my brakes until the recall this spring. So in the end, I paid the dealer $360 to have the wheels R&R, brakes inspected and the brake fluid changed. I can only pray that changing the brake fluid remedies the "no brakes" condition. It is outrageous that Workhorse is not doing everything possible to keep good customer relations by handling some of these costs and/or replacing damaged components. Instead they stick by the story that they are having issues with customers "riding the brakes." They do this, while at the same time, acknowledging that the computer read-outs are B/S and further admit that they have a problem. This leads me to believe they have made a calculated decision that the cost to remedy these problems by keeping consumers safe far outweighs their liability in case of accidents or God help us, deaths caused by the no brake situation. Good customer relations....does not seem to be a consideration.

Update to earlier post re: Brake failure:

I got the coach back from the authorized service center, Cummins Cal Pacific in Ventura, 3 days ago. After driving it less than 30 miles, the ABS light is on...so back it goes on Monday. Challenge is that now I will need to do a work-around because I was to take the coach to the SEMA show on Monday. But, I'll gladly make plans to stay at a hotel rather than take another chance on NO BRAKES. YIKES! It was a scary SOB when the incident occurred last week. It was a near disaster as it happened at a stop light, near the bottom of a steep hill, in Friday night So Cal traffic. Thank God I had a braking system on the tow car. Also, to be clear, I do not think this is an issue with the service center, although I could be wrong. When I spoke with customer service at Workhorse, they told me in no uncertain terms that they were not going to repair the brakes with new parts that were known defective so I would have to wait until the recall "fix" is out. It might be a different issue if the calipers, pads etc were damaged beyond "safe." Mine showed overheating and some transfer of material but were deemed "safe" to drive. (Maybe they think I can learn not to "ride the brakes"....after all I've only been driving Motor Homes, trucks etc for 40 years or so)

[zukIzzy]

Does anyone have one of these phelonic pistons they could take a photo of? Or an exploded schematic? Pistons are not that complicated, millions of cars trucks busses and the like have brakes that don't do this it should not take months to find a solution. Maybe we could find a solution using an existing proven brake caliper. We do it in racing every day.

wayne

[miket]

See page 70 of the 2006 Chassis Guide, available for download at Workhorse .com  --   

Also, I'd try Redlands Truck Service for a second opinion --- 

[bomre340]

Workhorse Brake Failure Update 2
 
I have been posting my day to day experience after total brake failure on 2003 Workhorse W22 chassis. After the brakes failed, I took the coach to Cummins Cal Pacific in Ventura, CA. They "fixed" the brake problem by changing the brake fluid at a cost of $340 including the diagnostic. On the way home the ABS light came on so I took it back in on Monday of this week. Today, Thursday the service writer told me that they had reinspected it and the same codes came up indicating that I was "riding the brakes." The service writer said he was going to contact Workhorse to find out what to do and for advise.

[bomre340]

Workhorse Brake Failure Update 3

Today, Friday, Nov 6 the service department at Cummins Cal Pacific called me. He said he had spoken with Workhorse and they told him to check the bell crank to see if that was causing the brake pedal to hang up in the applied position. Workhorse rep also told him that IF the bell crank was not the problem, which it was not, then it must be the customer "riding the brakes." The service writer at Cummins Cal Pacific knows that is B/S, the Workhorse rep knows that's B/S and I know it's B/S. I told Cummins Cal Pacific that the coach will stay there until I come to some conclusion on this problem. My first reaction is to sue Workhorse and Cummins Cal Pacific in small claims court for repairs and damages. Any suggestions would be appreciated at this point.

[max49]

Workhorse Brake Failure Update 3

 My first reaction is to sue Workhorse and Cummins Cal Pacific in small claims court for repairs and damages. Any suggestions would be appreciated at this point.

     I'm amazed that no one has did this.  It sure seems like you and many others would have a good case.  Just a nice letter to WH on attorney letterhead could could bring out the best of WH customer service.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Well look who posted here...Max49!  Amazing!   

Thanks for the update Bombre340.  It's always interesting to see how these failures are being handled by Workhorse......

[Photog]

Well look who posted here...Max49!  Amazing!   

Thanks for the update Bombre340.  It's always interesting to see how these failures are being handled by Workhorse......

There seems to be no logic to the way WH responds.  Some are repaired, replaced or reimbursed, others are not.  Too bad they can't treat everyone fairly.

[SCVJeff]

I don't have this issue, but am keeping an eye on it for a friend..
Someone (Bombre?) should sit down and write a detailed letter to Motorhome Mag and see if they can get their attention to get more eyeballs on the issue. How is it that WH can ignore stories like Bombre's and refuse to get involved? This is obviously a liability issue that they are being told to throw any other excuse for the failure up and see if it sticks. Anyone looking at a class-action suit?

[FrontrangeRVer]

Jeff.  I totally agree with you, and there are literally HUNDREDS more being reported on RV.net.  There have been many requests to start up a class action suit from owners, but I don't know what has come of that.....if anything.  I think the KEY thing is that not one case of injury or death has occured with the brake failures.  I have been heavily involved in this this issue, and I haven't heard of any class action suits being filed.

It appears you get one shot to report any findings on the "Workhorse forum" irv2 forum, and then you are kicked off or humiliated by one of the Workhorse Ambassadors there, so owners aren't posting their findings much anymore on that site. Since that site is sponsored by Workhorse, it has mainly become a cheerleading forum now run by the Ambassador there.  There has NEVER been an "official" response by Workhorse on that site.

I still have a very ill and sneaky feeling that this "recall" will never happen....it's just a feeling. Workhorse buried their head in the sand for so long on this while blaming the owner for the problems, and then when the NHTSA stepped in, we were ALL TOLD during the "Interim Recall Notice" that the "official recall" would take place in the "Fall".  I don't know about you, but we have a foot of snow on the ground up here, and the leaves have fallen about a month ago.  

I know this post was negative, but us owners are getting frustrated with Workhorse, and I for one, am afraid to drive mine due to the possibility of brake failure!  

[bomre340]

Complaint submitted to the FTC 11-08-2009. I recommend that all of us with similar challenges with these chassis to do the same. Here is the link:
FTC Complaints

On Oct 26, 2009, I experienced total brake failure on 2003 Winnebago Motor home at 18,000 miles. Afterward, I discovered the chassis, manufactured by Workhorse, a division of Navistar, is under a recall. (see web site)

Office of Defects Investigation

My motor home is unsafe to drive, (sticking, overheating brake system) and the ABS (Automatic Brake System) warning light is on telling me there is a problem. Workhorse refuses to fix the brakes to make it safe to drive. Their position seems to be dual, “Wait until we have the “fix” ready, sometime next year.” And, at the same time, saying “The sticking brake situation is your fault.” This dual statement seems to be the "line" they are feeding to all of us, at this time. It is outrageous!

According to their representatives the recall “fix” will not be available until sometime next year…..maybe. Although NHTS is involved in the recall, they seem to be letting Workhorse drag their feet on this critical issue. I am also concerned Navistar and/or Workhorse could enter bankruptcy before this issue is addressed.

There are thousands of us out here with Workhorse chassis, mine is a Workhorse W22, having nearly identical issues with unsafe brakes. The symptom is the brake pedal goes to the floor resulting in no brakes with little or no prior warning. After that we discover the brakes have been stuck in the partially applied position which resulted in tremendous heat being generated. That, in turn causes the brake fluid to boil. When brake fluid boils it turns to a gas. Once this has happened the motor home has no brakes!

Workhorse, a division of Navistar is doing little if nothing at this time to remedy this very dangerous situation and apparently has taken the position that the cost to remedy 50,000 motor homes with defective brakes outweighs the risk of putting their customer's lives in jeopardy. This is outrageous and I want the FTC to step in and use the full force and power of the government make Navistar and/or Workhorse come to grips with the dangers involved.

To research the depth of the problem, search

Workhorse Brake Recall

This is only 1 of several forums on the internet discussing this very dangerous issue. There are going to be horrible consequences with over 50,000 - 13 Ton+ motor homes driving around the Country with a potential "no brakes" situation as happened to me and many other consumers. Accidents and resulting serious injuries and deaths are going to occur. It is only a matter of time. No one, to my knowledge is keeping track. But, you need to be aware that I am keeping a record of sending this email to the FTC on Nov 8, 2009, bringing this very dangerous situation to your attention.

I will also be sending follow up letters to my representatives in California and Washington on this most important matter and publicly posting this email on the RV Forums. I respectfully, demand that something be done in the cause of public safety.

Thank you for contacting the FTC. Your complaint has been entered into Consumer Sentinel, a secure online database available to thousands of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies worldwide.

[sheltie]

It appears you get one shot to report any findings on the "Workhorse forum" irv2 forum, and then you are kicked off or humiliated by one of the Workhorse Ambassadors there, so owners aren't posting their findings much anymore on that site. Since that site is sponsored by Workhorse, it has mainly become a cheerleading forum now run by the Ambassador there.  There has NEVER been an "official" response by Workhorse on that site.

I totally disagree with your statement regarding the WH folks on irv2 forum.  There are many who are just as vociferous as you on that forum and very unhappy as well.  They do have a few people who know WH a LOT better than most of us do and they try to keep us informed as to what is going on to the best of their knowledge.  Your description of them is inaccurate and your attack unnecessary.

My SWAG is that until there is a central source for the complaints, there will be no quick fix for our brakes.  They will be repaired, but not nearly on the dates originally expected.  Until, or unless, there are enough complaints that reach the right desk, so to speak, we will just have to wait.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Bomre340, we appreciate the informative post here!     Let us know what the response is from the FTC.

[bomre340]

Notification sent to NTSHA on Nov 8, 2009: I recommend that all of us with similar situations contact them at: NHTSA

On Oct 26, 2009, I experienced total brake failure on 2003 Winnebago Motor home at 18,000 miles. Afterward, I discovered the chassis, manufactured by Workhorse, a division of Navistar, is under a recall. NHTSA Campaign ID number : 09V110000 My motor home is unsafe to drive, (sticking, overheating brake system) and the ABS (Automatic Brake System) warning light is on telling me there is a problem. Workhorse refuses to fix the brakes to make it safe to drive. Their position seems to be dual, “Wait until we have the “fix” ready, sometime next year.” And, at the same time, saying “The sticking brake situation is your fault.” This dual statement seems to be the "line" they are feeding to all of us, at this time. It is outrageous! According to their representatives the recall “fix” will not be available until sometime next year…..maybe. I am also concerned Navistar and/or Workhorse could enter bankruptcy before this issue is addressed. There are thousands of us out here with Workhorse chassis, mine is a Workhorse W22, having nearly identical issues with unsafe brakes. The symptom is the brake pedal goes to the floor resulting in no brakes with little or no prior warning. After that we discover the brakes have been stuck in the partially applied position which resulted in tremendous heat being generated. That, in turn causes the brake fluid to boil. When brake fluid boils it turns to a gas. Once this has happened the motor home has no brakes! Workhorse, a division of Navistar is doing little if nothing at this time to remedy this very dangerous situation and apparently has taken the position that the cost to remedy 50,000 motor homes with defective brakes outweighs the risk of putting their customer's lives in jeopardy. This is outrageous! Please be aware that I will be posting this alert to your dept on the RV Forums on the internet. You are hereby notified of this dangerous situation.


Your Complaint Information is successfully submitted.(to NHTSA)
Your Confirmation number (ODI Number) is:

[John Canfield]

I'm extremely dismayed at this long-running, well-publicized, and by all accounts a very dangerous situation.  What just blows me away is the liability scenario that Navistar has set itself up for.  Usually, once an entity is aware of their problem that could cause loss, damage, or injury, it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to mitigate the situation or be a prime candidate for a successful negligence lawsuit.

A typical example:  a city is responsible for street maintenance.  Your vehicle hits a very large pothole and your bumper or ______ falls off.  You call the city to complain and want them to pay for damage.  They tell you, "sorry, yours is the first report...we don't pay."  If they weren't aware of a problem, they can't be held responsible.  On the other side of the coin... you get the picture.

Perhaps Navistar now has some legal immunity since their there is some NTSB activity about the problem - that is the only thing I can rationalize.  You can bet your bippy the corporate legal department for Navistar is well tuned-in to the situation.

[bomre340]

I will pick up the motor home and take it to another dealer for a second opinion. I believe this is a case that can be won in small claims court. Their (Workhorse's) conduct is so outrageous that I believe most Judges will enter a judgement against them and/or any facility which co conspired to take money for service(s)not rendered. The damages could be the price of past "repairs" plus replacing the defective brake assemblies with possible punitive damages. In case anyone else, also wants to give it a try, I did some research and for those in California, here are the Agents of Service (the person who has to be served)

NAVISTAR, INC.
Number: C0504111    
Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
Address
4201 WINFIELD ROAD
WARRENVILLE, IL 60555
Agent for Service of Process
C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
818 WEST SEVENTH ST
LOS ANGELES, CA 90017 

Because you usually cannot serve a corporation, you will need an actual person. I would also have this person served:

C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
Number: C0168406    
Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
Address
2700 LAKE COOK ROAD
RIVERWOODS, IL 60015
Agent for Service of Process
JERE KEPRIOS
C/O CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
818 W. SEVENTH STREET
LOS ANGELES, CA 90017

For those of you in other states; google; "how to find corporate agent of service"

[FrontrangeRVer]

I'm extremely dismayed at this long-running, well-publicized, and by all accounts a very dangerous situation.  What just blows me away is the liability scenario that Navistar has set itself up for.  Usually, once an entity is aware of their problem that could cause loss, damage, or injury, it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to mitigate the situation or be a prime candidate for a successful negligence lawsuit.

John...we are all just amazed that A.  The NHTSA hasn't pushed ahead with their findings of Caliper fault, B. Workhorse has CONTINUED to put the blame on the consumer, and C.  The Amabassador for Workhorse elsewhere (not the Ambassador that posts here) continues to brush this issue under the rug and actually DEFENDS WORKHORSE!

John...we are tired of this rhetoric!  Thanks for your post!  And...bomre340, we APPRECIATE THE ACTION YOU ARE TAKING! 

[max49]

You forgot ' D '.

D    They are still using the same brakes on the new chassis coming off the line.    Apparently Workhorse ain't afraid of  NO attorney, no court, no customer, no  NTSA and no ghosts either

[miket]

No new word yet ----


If you flush the brake fluid, it will help prevent piston swelling, but it won't fix existing swelling. Clean fluid is less likely to boil and cause total brake failure, Ford high temp fluid is recommended by WH.


Seems there were/are more complaints on the internet than what NHTSA received ---

[jolin]

Would someone tell me if this might work as a way to know if the brakes have stuck partially closed.

those of us still driving and wanting a way to know if our brakes are draggi8ng before we start smelling the brakes what about running a wire from the brake lights to the drivers display that would come on when the brakes are applied.

Would that work as a way to know early if the brakes were dragging?

[FrontrangeRVer]

Jolin, welcome!

I'm not sure how that would work, as one or two calipers would be sticking closed.

[miket]

I am trying to get the MH packed so we can head to FL soon. I may get a chance to meet some corporate in Jan., hope there is some word on this situation.

I will be at the FMA rally at Lazy Days park in Jan., Good Sam rally in Dunellon in Feb. and the Orlando WIT in March, I'll wear my body armor if necessary ---


Changing fluid after a hang up will not cure the problem, but it may prevent a recurrence --- it will replace the contaminated fluid and lessen the chance of boiling and the pedal going to the floor.

[RV Roamer]

what about running a wire from the brake lights to the drivers display that would come on when the brakes are applied.

Would that work as a way to know early if the brakes were dragging?

I don't know what that would accomplish. The brake lights only come on when the pedal is pressed - there is a switch on the pedal. A dragging brake does not operate the brake lights by itself.

[tallyo]

Being retired from a rather large manufacturing firm and having a wee bit of knowledge about recalls; I would be very surprised if Workhorse would deliberately try to avoid a " publicly known" recall.

Although companies do not like recalls, as they are expensive, a dangerous fault can be 100 times more costly, in the long run, if not fixed. This country we live in at times can get lawsuit fever.

I also know many consumers can be mistaken as to if a recall applies to their "exact" model and serial number sequence, or in a few instances some folks are out to get something for nothing....... IE. new brakes when they abused the originals themselves. But of course that would never apply to anyone with an RV.......

[John From Detroit]

Would that work as a way to know early if the brakes were dragging?

Depends on the recall.. Workhorse has two or three known issues

1: Bell cranks.> Bell cranks prior to, either 2005 or 2004, did not have a zerk fitting on the crank.. and these could stick and prevent the pedal from fully returning to the "Released" position.. Your method MIGHT work with this.. or might not  I'm not sure.

2: Caliper issues.. The piston in the BOSCH calliper is made of a composit that is hydroscopic (Absorbes moisture) and when it does this it can expand and stick, so the pedal returns fully to the rest position (Turning off the brake lights) but the brakes drag cause they never released AT THE WHEEL. 


So.. How can you tell if this is happening? A top quality TPMS believe it or not

The folks at Pressure Pro (Bernie, please jump in here) have two models as I recall that can alarm if tire pressure increases beyond a set point.. NOTE that as the brakes get hot, the tire gets hot and the pressure increases.

In addition at least one of them monitors Temperature and can alarm on overheat.

In addition SMART TIRE TPMS. monitors and alarms on temperature as well.

[bsinmich]

Workhorse is still blaming us for riding the brakes and not driving properly.  It seems that only W20 & W22 chassis owners have this problem.  Do we really drive that different from the other chassis owners?

[RV Roamer]

It seems that only W20 & W22 chassis owners have this problem.  Do we really drive that different from the other chassis owners?

Probably not, but you do have different brakes than the P series chassis owners. It's the Bosch brakes that have the problem and it crops up wherever they are used, though the RV chassis seems to have it the most. The other uses of the Bosch brake get regular professional maintenance (e.g. school buses) and you don't hear as much about the problem, so that may be what leads them to attempt to lay some blame on the RV owner.   On the other hand, if the brake truly cannot be used without frequent preventive maintenance, [in my opinion] it really doesn't belong in a privately owned, recreation-type vehicle.

[FrontrangeRVer]

I think Gary "might" have slightly missed bsimich's point.  Gary is right that the P series (and the W-24) uses different calipers and brake systems.

I THINK bsimich was trying to say that our chassis calipers' are no different than the Bosch calipers on other motorhome chassis, namely FORD.  Ford Class A chassis use the exact same Bosch calipers that the Workhorse W-20/22 uses, and the phenolic piston problem hasn't cropped up there it seems.

I certainly don't believe other chassis (namely bread trucks, school busses, etc) do much preventative maintenance on their brakes like lubricating the pins or changing the brake fluid like the rest of anal retentive motorhome chassis owners do....they just drive the SNOT out of them, which is something we don't do.

The only manufacturer that is getting hurt by Workhorse blaming the owner for "riding the brakes", is Workhorse.   

[Lou Schneider]

I certainly don't believe other chassis (namely bread trucks, school busses, etc) do much preventative maintenance on their brakes like lubricating the pins or changing the brake fluid like the rest of anal retentive motorhome chassis owners do....they just drive the SNOT out of them, which is something we don't do.

That's exactly the point.   It's not the driving that causes the problems with the phenolic pistons, it's the sitting around that does them in.  When you drive the rig normal brake heating drives the water out of the phenolic before enough can infiltrate and swell the piston.  Let the rig sit for a while and you have problems.  Most likely Bosch never envisioned their brake assemblies sitting in the weather for months at a time between uses.

BTW, other disk brakes can stick if they sit for a long time.   My 1994 Ford pickup has gone through two sets of front calipers, both after letting the truck sit for a couple of months.   The culprit was the metal cylinder walls rusting and not letting the piston release.

[FrontrangeRVer]

That's exactly the point.   It's not the driving that causes the problems with the phenolic pistons, it's the sitting around that does them in.  When you drive the rig normal brake heating drives the water out of the phenolic before enough can infiltrate and swell the piston.  Let the rig sit for a while and you have problems.  Most likely Bosch never envisioned their brake assemblies sitting in the weather for months at a time between uses.

Yes...I agree..that's the point....our motorhomes sit for extended periods of time. 

I guess bsmich's point is that other chassis (I am presuming he meant Ford) with the exact same phenolic pin Bosch Calipers don't have this problem.

Maybe MikeT can chime in here and let us know if the new caliper replacement will have steel pins instead of phenolic pins.

[carson]

Somehow all this sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. I don't have a dog in this fight.

  Who knows the real answer? Has any RV'r with the problem been able to scientifically prove anything, in writing?

   I am not getting involved just asking a simple question.

carson FL

[FrontrangeRVer]

Carson, yes, it has been determined that the swelling of the phenolic piston in the caliper is the problem.  Some 200,000 replacement calipers are being manufactured by Bosch at this very moment (so we hear).

[Richard 34A]

Carson, yes, it has been determined that the swelling of the phenolic piston in the caliper is the problem.

What? I thought it was because I didn't drive my MH properly or enough, change the brake fluid enough, didn't use the Grade Brake properly, always drove with my foot on the brakes, let it sit too long in storage; that's what I've been told over and over for 3+ years... and now you say that there's an actual scientfic reason behind all these brake failures? WooHoo, it's not me?!

[Richard 34A]

On Oct 26, 2009, I experienced total brake failure on 2003 Winnebago Motor home at 18,000 miles. Afterward, I discovered the chassis, manufactured by Workhorse, a division of Navistar, is under a recall. (see web site)

Office of Defects Investigation

My motor home is unsafe to drive

Read all your posts here; sorry to hear that you too are having brakes issues. Unfortunately, you're probably finding out that this story is all too common and goes back close to four years. I am glad that you have taken the time to post here and the further action you've taken, since Workhorse and even a few members at various rv forums still try to claim that it must be driver or operator error. I have never taken that position, and never will, so keep up your efforts in seeking repairs and exposure to this serious safety defect.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Workhorse Chassis owners, thanks for reading and posting here!  When the official Brake Recall is announced, you will read about it here first!   

Thanks to Tom for letting us owners have an official place to look for the latest information on our chassis!

[Tom]

Thanks to Tom for letting us owners have an official place to look for the latest information on our chassis!

Mark, for clarification, there's nothing "official" about it; This forum is open to anyone with an RV or an interest in RV'ing. We have no affiliation with any organization, and we're not sponsored by any manufacturer. All we ask is that folks follow our forum rules.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Mark, for clarification, there's nothing "official" about it; This forum is open to anyone with an RV or an interest in RV'ing. We have no affiliation with any organization, and we're not sponsored by any manufacturer. All we ask is that folks follow our forum rules.

Gotcha....I meant to say official thread....or maybe the latest Workhorse Brake thread....or something to that effect!  We just appreciate a place to get the FACTS out to other affected owners.  And we are THRILLED about the no-sponsorship here at RVForum.net!  

[miket]

    Amen ----



As on Hogan's Hero's    I know nothing -------     


Feel like a mushroom -----    kept in the dark ----   

[Tom]

It appears that this topic (aka thread) has served its original purpose, and recently became the target of some personal issues between several forum members. As a result, I'm closing this one down from further posting, but it will remain in full view of all members.

If anyone has new information to add, feel free to start a new topic. If/when deemed appropriate, a staff member might decide to merge the new and old topics at a later date.

I'll take this opportunity to remind folks that our forum rules prohibit personal attacks. If you have a gripe with someone, take it to PM or to email. Thanks.