Workhorse Brake Recall

[Photog]

Well look who posted here...Max49!  Amazing!   

Thanks for the update Bombre340.  It's always interesting to see how these failures are being handled by Workhorse......

There seems to be no logic to the way WH responds.  Some are repaired, replaced or reimbursed, others are not.  Too bad they can't treat everyone fairly.

[SCVJeff]

I don't have this issue, but am keeping an eye on it for a friend..
Someone (Bombre?) should sit down and write a detailed letter to Motorhome Mag and see if they can get their attention to get more eyeballs on the issue. How is it that WH can ignore stories like Bombre's and refuse to get involved? This is obviously a liability issue that they are being told to throw any other excuse for the failure up and see if it sticks. Anyone looking at a class-action suit?

[FrontrangeRVer]

Jeff.  I totally agree with you, and there are literally HUNDREDS more being reported on RV.net.  There have been many requests to start up a class action suit from owners, but I don't know what has come of that.....if anything.  I think the KEY thing is that not one case of injury or death has occured with the brake failures.  I have been heavily involved in this this issue, and I haven't heard of any class action suits being filed.

It appears you get one shot to report any findings on the "Workhorse forum" irv2 forum, and then you are kicked off or humiliated by one of the Workhorse Ambassadors there, so owners aren't posting their findings much anymore on that site. Since that site is sponsored by Workhorse, it has mainly become a cheerleading forum now run by the Ambassador there.  There has NEVER been an "official" response by Workhorse on that site.

I still have a very ill and sneaky feeling that this "recall" will never happen....it's just a feeling. Workhorse buried their head in the sand for so long on this while blaming the owner for the problems, and then when the NHTSA stepped in, we were ALL TOLD during the "Interim Recall Notice" that the "official recall" would take place in the "Fall".  I don't know about you, but we have a foot of snow on the ground up here, and the leaves have fallen about a month ago.  

I know this post was negative, but us owners are getting frustrated with Workhorse, and I for one, am afraid to drive mine due to the possibility of brake failure!  

[bomre340]

Complaint submitted to the FTC 11-08-2009. I recommend that all of us with similar challenges with these chassis to do the same. Here is the link:
FTC Complaints

On Oct 26, 2009, I experienced total brake failure on 2003 Winnebago Motor home at 18,000 miles. Afterward, I discovered the chassis, manufactured by Workhorse, a division of Navistar, is under a recall. (see web site)

Office of Defects Investigation

My motor home is unsafe to drive, (sticking, overheating brake system) and the ABS (Automatic Brake System) warning light is on telling me there is a problem. Workhorse refuses to fix the brakes to make it safe to drive. Their position seems to be dual, “Wait until we have the “fix” ready, sometime next year.” And, at the same time, saying “The sticking brake situation is your fault.” This dual statement seems to be the "line" they are feeding to all of us, at this time. It is outrageous!

According to their representatives the recall “fix” will not be available until sometime next year…..maybe. Although NHTS is involved in the recall, they seem to be letting Workhorse drag their feet on this critical issue. I am also concerned Navistar and/or Workhorse could enter bankruptcy before this issue is addressed.

There are thousands of us out here with Workhorse chassis, mine is a Workhorse W22, having nearly identical issues with unsafe brakes. The symptom is the brake pedal goes to the floor resulting in no brakes with little or no prior warning. After that we discover the brakes have been stuck in the partially applied position which resulted in tremendous heat being generated. That, in turn causes the brake fluid to boil. When brake fluid boils it turns to a gas. Once this has happened the motor home has no brakes!

Workhorse, a division of Navistar is doing little if nothing at this time to remedy this very dangerous situation and apparently has taken the position that the cost to remedy 50,000 motor homes with defective brakes outweighs the risk of putting their customer's lives in jeopardy. This is outrageous and I want the FTC to step in and use the full force and power of the government make Navistar and/or Workhorse come to grips with the dangers involved.

To research the depth of the problem, search

Workhorse Brake Recall

This is only 1 of several forums on the internet discussing this very dangerous issue. There are going to be horrible consequences with over 50,000 - 13 Ton+ motor homes driving around the Country with a potential "no brakes" situation as happened to me and many other consumers. Accidents and resulting serious injuries and deaths are going to occur. It is only a matter of time. No one, to my knowledge is keeping track. But, you need to be aware that I am keeping a record of sending this email to the FTC on Nov 8, 2009, bringing this very dangerous situation to your attention.

I will also be sending follow up letters to my representatives in California and Washington on this most important matter and publicly posting this email on the RV Forums. I respectfully, demand that something be done in the cause of public safety.

Thank you for contacting the FTC. Your complaint has been entered into Consumer Sentinel, a secure online database available to thousands of civil and criminal law enforcement agencies worldwide.

[sheltie]

It appears you get one shot to report any findings on the "Workhorse forum" irv2 forum, and then you are kicked off or humiliated by one of the Workhorse Ambassadors there, so owners aren't posting their findings much anymore on that site. Since that site is sponsored by Workhorse, it has mainly become a cheerleading forum now run by the Ambassador there.  There has NEVER been an "official" response by Workhorse on that site.

I totally disagree with your statement regarding the WH folks on irv2 forum.  There are many who are just as vociferous as you on that forum and very unhappy as well.  They do have a few people who know WH a LOT better than most of us do and they try to keep us informed as to what is going on to the best of their knowledge.  Your description of them is inaccurate and your attack unnecessary.

My SWAG is that until there is a central source for the complaints, there will be no quick fix for our brakes.  They will be repaired, but not nearly on the dates originally expected.  Until, or unless, there are enough complaints that reach the right desk, so to speak, we will just have to wait.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Bomre340, we appreciate the informative post here!     Let us know what the response is from the FTC.

[bomre340]

Notification sent to NTSHA on Nov 8, 2009: I recommend that all of us with similar situations contact them at: NHTSA

On Oct 26, 2009, I experienced total brake failure on 2003 Winnebago Motor home at 18,000 miles. Afterward, I discovered the chassis, manufactured by Workhorse, a division of Navistar, is under a recall. NHTSA Campaign ID number : 09V110000 My motor home is unsafe to drive, (sticking, overheating brake system) and the ABS (Automatic Brake System) warning light is on telling me there is a problem. Workhorse refuses to fix the brakes to make it safe to drive. Their position seems to be dual, “Wait until we have the “fix” ready, sometime next year.” And, at the same time, saying “The sticking brake situation is your fault.” This dual statement seems to be the "line" they are feeding to all of us, at this time. It is outrageous! According to their representatives the recall “fix” will not be available until sometime next year…..maybe. I am also concerned Navistar and/or Workhorse could enter bankruptcy before this issue is addressed. There are thousands of us out here with Workhorse chassis, mine is a Workhorse W22, having nearly identical issues with unsafe brakes. The symptom is the brake pedal goes to the floor resulting in no brakes with little or no prior warning. After that we discover the brakes have been stuck in the partially applied position which resulted in tremendous heat being generated. That, in turn causes the brake fluid to boil. When brake fluid boils it turns to a gas. Once this has happened the motor home has no brakes! Workhorse, a division of Navistar is doing little if nothing at this time to remedy this very dangerous situation and apparently has taken the position that the cost to remedy 50,000 motor homes with defective brakes outweighs the risk of putting their customer's lives in jeopardy. This is outrageous! Please be aware that I will be posting this alert to your dept on the RV Forums on the internet. You are hereby notified of this dangerous situation.


Your Complaint Information is successfully submitted.(to NHTSA)
Your Confirmation number (ODI Number) is:

[John Canfield]

I'm extremely dismayed at this long-running, well-publicized, and by all accounts a very dangerous situation.  What just blows me away is the liability scenario that Navistar has set itself up for.  Usually, once an entity is aware of their problem that could cause loss, damage, or injury, it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to mitigate the situation or be a prime candidate for a successful negligence lawsuit.

A typical example:  a city is responsible for street maintenance.  Your vehicle hits a very large pothole and your bumper or ______ falls off.  You call the city to complain and want them to pay for damage.  They tell you, "sorry, yours is the first report...we don't pay."  If they weren't aware of a problem, they can't be held responsible.  On the other side of the coin... you get the picture.

Perhaps Navistar now has some legal immunity since their there is some NTSB activity about the problem - that is the only thing I can rationalize.  You can bet your bippy the corporate legal department for Navistar is well tuned-in to the situation.

[bomre340]

I will pick up the motor home and take it to another dealer for a second opinion. I believe this is a case that can be won in small claims court. Their (Workhorse's) conduct is so outrageous that I believe most Judges will enter a judgement against them and/or any facility which co conspired to take money for service(s)not rendered. The damages could be the price of past "repairs" plus replacing the defective brake assemblies with possible punitive damages. In case anyone else, also wants to give it a try, I did some research and for those in California, here are the Agents of Service (the person who has to be served)

NAVISTAR, INC.
Number: C0504111    
Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
Address
4201 WINFIELD ROAD
WARRENVILLE, IL 60555
Agent for Service of Process
C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
818 WEST SEVENTH ST
LOS ANGELES, CA 90017 

Because you usually cannot serve a corporation, you will need an actual person. I would also have this person served:

C T CORPORATION SYSTEM
Number: C0168406    
Jurisdiction: DELAWARE
Address
2700 LAKE COOK ROAD
RIVERWOODS, IL 60015
Agent for Service of Process
JERE KEPRIOS
C/O CT CORPORATION SYSTEM
818 W. SEVENTH STREET
LOS ANGELES, CA 90017

For those of you in other states; google; "how to find corporate agent of service"

[FrontrangeRVer]

I'm extremely dismayed at this long-running, well-publicized, and by all accounts a very dangerous situation.  What just blows me away is the liability scenario that Navistar has set itself up for.  Usually, once an entity is aware of their problem that could cause loss, damage, or injury, it is their responsibility to do whatever it takes to mitigate the situation or be a prime candidate for a successful negligence lawsuit.

John...we are all just amazed that A.  The NHTSA hasn't pushed ahead with their findings of Caliper fault, B. Workhorse has CONTINUED to put the blame on the consumer, and C.  The Amabassador for Workhorse elsewhere (not the Ambassador that posts here) continues to brush this issue under the rug and actually DEFENDS WORKHORSE!

John...we are tired of this rhetoric!  Thanks for your post!  And...bomre340, we APPRECIATE THE ACTION YOU ARE TAKING! 

[max49]

You forgot ' D '.

D    They are still using the same brakes on the new chassis coming off the line.    Apparently Workhorse ain't afraid of  NO attorney, no court, no customer, no  NTSA and no ghosts either

[miket]

No new word yet ----


If you flush the brake fluid, it will help prevent piston swelling, but it won't fix existing swelling. Clean fluid is less likely to boil and cause total brake failure, Ford high temp fluid is recommended by WH.


Seems there were/are more complaints on the internet than what NHTSA received ---

[jolin]

Would someone tell me if this might work as a way to know if the brakes have stuck partially closed.

those of us still driving and wanting a way to know if our brakes are draggi8ng before we start smelling the brakes what about running a wire from the brake lights to the drivers display that would come on when the brakes are applied.

Would that work as a way to know early if the brakes were dragging?

[FrontrangeRVer]

Jolin, welcome!

I'm not sure how that would work, as one or two calipers would be sticking closed.

[miket]

I am trying to get the MH packed so we can head to FL soon. I may get a chance to meet some corporate in Jan., hope there is some word on this situation.

I will be at the FMA rally at Lazy Days park in Jan., Good Sam rally in Dunellon in Feb. and the Orlando WIT in March, I'll wear my body armor if necessary ---


Changing fluid after a hang up will not cure the problem, but it may prevent a recurrence --- it will replace the contaminated fluid and lessen the chance of boiling and the pedal going to the floor.

[RV Roamer]

what about running a wire from the brake lights to the drivers display that would come on when the brakes are applied.

Would that work as a way to know early if the brakes were dragging?

I don't know what that would accomplish. The brake lights only come on when the pedal is pressed - there is a switch on the pedal. A dragging brake does not operate the brake lights by itself.

[tallyo]

Being retired from a rather large manufacturing firm and having a wee bit of knowledge about recalls; I would be very surprised if Workhorse would deliberately try to avoid a " publicly known" recall.

Although companies do not like recalls, as they are expensive, a dangerous fault can be 100 times more costly, in the long run, if not fixed. This country we live in at times can get lawsuit fever.

I also know many consumers can be mistaken as to if a recall applies to their "exact" model and serial number sequence, or in a few instances some folks are out to get something for nothing....... IE. new brakes when they abused the originals themselves. But of course that would never apply to anyone with an RV.......

[John From Detroit]

Would that work as a way to know early if the brakes were dragging?

Depends on the recall.. Workhorse has two or three known issues

1: Bell cranks.> Bell cranks prior to, either 2005 or 2004, did not have a zerk fitting on the crank.. and these could stick and prevent the pedal from fully returning to the "Released" position.. Your method MIGHT work with this.. or might not  I'm not sure.

2: Caliper issues.. The piston in the BOSCH calliper is made of a composit that is hydroscopic (Absorbes moisture) and when it does this it can expand and stick, so the pedal returns fully to the rest position (Turning off the brake lights) but the brakes drag cause they never released AT THE WHEEL. 


So.. How can you tell if this is happening? A top quality TPMS believe it or not

The folks at Pressure Pro (Bernie, please jump in here) have two models as I recall that can alarm if tire pressure increases beyond a set point.. NOTE that as the brakes get hot, the tire gets hot and the pressure increases.

In addition at least one of them monitors Temperature and can alarm on overheat.

In addition SMART TIRE TPMS. monitors and alarms on temperature as well.

[bsinmich]

Workhorse is still blaming us for riding the brakes and not driving properly.  It seems that only W20 & W22 chassis owners have this problem.  Do we really drive that different from the other chassis owners?

[RV Roamer]

It seems that only W20 & W22 chassis owners have this problem.  Do we really drive that different from the other chassis owners?

Probably not, but you do have different brakes than the P series chassis owners. It's the Bosch brakes that have the problem and it crops up wherever they are used, though the RV chassis seems to have it the most. The other uses of the Bosch brake get regular professional maintenance (e.g. school buses) and you don't hear as much about the problem, so that may be what leads them to attempt to lay some blame on the RV owner.   On the other hand, if the brake truly cannot be used without frequent preventive maintenance, [in my opinion] it really doesn't belong in a privately owned, recreation-type vehicle.

[FrontrangeRVer]

I think Gary "might" have slightly missed bsimich's point.  Gary is right that the P series (and the W-24) uses different calipers and brake systems.

I THINK bsimich was trying to say that our chassis calipers' are no different than the Bosch calipers on other motorhome chassis, namely FORD.  Ford Class A chassis use the exact same Bosch calipers that the Workhorse W-20/22 uses, and the phenolic piston problem hasn't cropped up there it seems.

I certainly don't believe other chassis (namely bread trucks, school busses, etc) do much preventative maintenance on their brakes like lubricating the pins or changing the brake fluid like the rest of anal retentive motorhome chassis owners do....they just drive the SNOT out of them, which is something we don't do.

The only manufacturer that is getting hurt by Workhorse blaming the owner for "riding the brakes", is Workhorse.   

[Lou Schneider]

I certainly don't believe other chassis (namely bread trucks, school busses, etc) do much preventative maintenance on their brakes like lubricating the pins or changing the brake fluid like the rest of anal retentive motorhome chassis owners do....they just drive the SNOT out of them, which is something we don't do.

That's exactly the point.   It's not the driving that causes the problems with the phenolic pistons, it's the sitting around that does them in.  When you drive the rig normal brake heating drives the water out of the phenolic before enough can infiltrate and swell the piston.  Let the rig sit for a while and you have problems.  Most likely Bosch never envisioned their brake assemblies sitting in the weather for months at a time between uses.

BTW, other disk brakes can stick if they sit for a long time.   My 1994 Ford pickup has gone through two sets of front calipers, both after letting the truck sit for a couple of months.   The culprit was the metal cylinder walls rusting and not letting the piston release.

[FrontrangeRVer]

That's exactly the point.   It's not the driving that causes the problems with the phenolic pistons, it's the sitting around that does them in.  When you drive the rig normal brake heating drives the water out of the phenolic before enough can infiltrate and swell the piston.  Let the rig sit for a while and you have problems.  Most likely Bosch never envisioned their brake assemblies sitting in the weather for months at a time between uses.

Yes...I agree..that's the point....our motorhomes sit for extended periods of time. 

I guess bsmich's point is that other chassis (I am presuming he meant Ford) with the exact same phenolic pin Bosch Calipers don't have this problem.

Maybe MikeT can chime in here and let us know if the new caliper replacement will have steel pins instead of phenolic pins.

[carson]

Somehow all this sounds like mumbo-jumbo to me. I don't have a dog in this fight.

  Who knows the real answer? Has any RV'r with the problem been able to scientifically prove anything, in writing?

   I am not getting involved just asking a simple question.

carson FL

[FrontrangeRVer]

Carson, yes, it has been determined that the swelling of the phenolic piston in the caliper is the problem.  Some 200,000 replacement calipers are being manufactured by Bosch at this very moment (so we hear).

[Richard 34A]

Carson, yes, it has been determined that the swelling of the phenolic piston in the caliper is the problem.

What? I thought it was because I didn't drive my MH properly or enough, change the brake fluid enough, didn't use the Grade Brake properly, always drove with my foot on the brakes, let it sit too long in storage; that's what I've been told over and over for 3+ years... and now you say that there's an actual scientfic reason behind all these brake failures? WooHoo, it's not me?!

[Richard 34A]

On Oct 26, 2009, I experienced total brake failure on 2003 Winnebago Motor home at 18,000 miles. Afterward, I discovered the chassis, manufactured by Workhorse, a division of Navistar, is under a recall. (see web site)

Office of Defects Investigation

My motor home is unsafe to drive

Read all your posts here; sorry to hear that you too are having brakes issues. Unfortunately, you're probably finding out that this story is all too common and goes back close to four years. I am glad that you have taken the time to post here and the further action you've taken, since Workhorse and even a few members at various rv forums still try to claim that it must be driver or operator error. I have never taken that position, and never will, so keep up your efforts in seeking repairs and exposure to this serious safety defect.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Workhorse Chassis owners, thanks for reading and posting here!  When the official Brake Recall is announced, you will read about it here first!   

Thanks to Tom for letting us owners have an official place to look for the latest information on our chassis!

[Tom]

Thanks to Tom for letting us owners have an official place to look for the latest information on our chassis!

Mark, for clarification, there's nothing "official" about it; This forum is open to anyone with an RV or an interest in RV'ing. We have no affiliation with any organization, and we're not sponsored by any manufacturer. All we ask is that folks follow our forum rules.

[FrontrangeRVer]

Mark, for clarification, there's nothing "official" about it; This forum is open to anyone with an RV or an interest in RV'ing. We have no affiliation with any organization, and we're not sponsored by any manufacturer. All we ask is that folks follow our forum rules.

Gotcha....I meant to say official thread....or maybe the latest Workhorse Brake thread....or something to that effect!  We just appreciate a place to get the FACTS out to other affected owners.  And we are THRILLED about the no-sponsorship here at RVForum.net!