CALAMITY STRIKES!

[KodiakRV]

WOW!  What a horrible, scary feeling that must have been.  I wouldn't even begin to second-guess anything that you did.

Thank God that you were not injured.

[ArdraF]

When we were seriously looking to buy our Windsor we went on a test drive with the Monaco test driver.  At one point he assured us there was no one else on the road, to make sure our seatbelts were fastened, and then hold on.  As we were driving down the road at about 35 mph he pulled the emergency air brake and we were totally amazed at how fast the motorhome came to a complete stop.  Those emergency air brakes work great - unless something has gone wrong.  I should think if there was an air leak and no air pressure, some alarm would have sounded.  I hope there is some kind of a "what went wrong" report because I'm sure it will help many of us.

ArdraF

[Betty Brewer]

When we were seriously looking to buy our Windsor we went on a test drive with the Monaco test driver.  At one point he assured us there was no one else on the road, to make sure our seatbelts were fastened, and then hold on.  As we were driving down the road at about 35 mph he pulled the emergency air brake and we were totally amazed at how fast the motorhome came to a complete stop.  Those emergency air brakes work great - unless something has gone wrong. 

Ardra,

I had a similar experience in RV driving school.  Jerry Ray decided I should  pull emergency brake to see how it worked.  I was afraid of a 'wheels locking up and skidding scene' , but like you said the rig efficiently  and quickly slowed with some force, however it was still quite a few yards before a complete stop and that was at 35-40 mph. 
If Gary was traveling in the speed of low 60 mph range I fear even an effective emergency brake stop my not have been enough to slow his destination into the back of an auto in front.  In those few nano seconds our mind races as to how to handle impending dangers.  I  think Gary did well and trust that he will give us a full report on the findings.  I remain happy  that there were no serious injuries.  Makes me want to check my brakes.

Betty

[Ned]

The emergency (or parking) brake is a failsafe mechanism.  It uses air pressure to keep the brake off, and in the event of a total loss of air pressure, the brakes are applied to the rear wheels by powerful springs.  It's quite possible that the emergency brakes did apply in Gary's case, but it just took that long to effect a stop.  It's certainly not as effective as applying all 4 wheel brakes, which obviously he couldn't do.

[Jack Nichols]

We are thankful for your outcome and sorry it happened.

I am sure many more people got up from the easy chair, walked over to the driving station, and throught through what we would do in your situation.  I now have a MUCH better grasp of where that big yellow emergency brake knob is.  Your experience may save some of us from the same fate some day.

Prayers your way, and if you ask for help, you will need a traffic director.

[Gypsy Rovers]

Gary & Nancy, so glad that you folks came out OK and with minor injuries to the others, that's a blessing.  I cant imagine a more helpless feeling than "no brakes" and as others have indicated I would like to know the root cause.

I know things are very much up in the air at this point and difficult to plan properly, however, we will be in Lake Aire on Weds, both of us willing to do whatever it takes to help make the rally a success.  If, you folks are able to make it there with your toad we have plenty of room in the coach and would love to be able to offer you a base while you're there.

Let us know if there's anything we can do to help and hopefully there'll be sunny days ahead.

Dale & Karen.

[seilerbird]

Gary - I am glad you and the misses and the cat are all ok. I wonder if the insurance company is going to patch up the windshield or replace it?

[DonTom]

The emergency (or parking) brake is a failsafe mechanism.  It uses air pressure to keep the brake off, and in the event of a total loss of air pressure, the brakes are applied to the rear wheels by powerful springs.  It's quite possible that the emergency brakes did apply in Gary's case, but it just took that long to effect a stop.  It's certainly not as effective as applying all 4 wheel brakes, which obviously he couldn't do.

I am also very glad to hear it wasn't more serious and that everybody came out okay!

All this makes me wonder about braking in diesels and so I wanna ask a bunch of dumb questions. I know nothing about diesels, as I never owned one.   I never even took a good look at a diesel engine.

What happens when you shift to the lowest gear? Would it help much to slow down a diesel?

Also, what happens when the engine is shut down (like when the ignition is turned off in a gasoline engine). Does it just turn off the fuel pump or what does it do? There's no ignition to turn off, right? It seems there should be a way to use all that compression to help slow things down.

I have thought about what I would do (but with  gasoline engine rigs), in the case of lost brakes. And I have had to use it once, but only to help, by shifting into the lowest gear. But I didn't totally lose all the brakes, I had a brake line burst open for the rear brakes as I was braking down a deep hill. It was scary, pedal goes down to near the floor, but I was able to slow enough to stop and avoid any damage. Fortunately,   most of the braking power is in the front and with the help of the tranny in low, as well as using the parking brake, I was able to come to an almost normal stop in an almost normal stopping distance.

I have heard of one other person who totally lost brakes but was able to stop by shifting his automatic tranny into REVERSE. It damaged the tranny, but it did stop. What would happen in a diesel if it were forced into reverse?

-Don- SSF, CA

[Jim Godward]

I am also very glad to hear it wasn't more serious and that everybody came out okay!

All this makes me wonder about braking in diesels and so I wanna ask a bunch of dumb questions. I know nothing about diesels, as I never owned one.   I never even took a good look at a diesel engine.

What happens when you shift to the lowest gear? Would it help much to slow down a diesel?

Comment:
In todays diesels shifting down will slow you BUT it will only shift down to the lowest gear that will not damage things.  If you touch the brake and shift down it should engage the exhaust brake, either the classic Jacobs or the newer butterfly in the exhaust path and shift down as the engine speed reduces below the next shift point.

Also, what happens when the engine is shut down (like when the ignition is turned off in a gasoline engine). Does it just turn off the fuel pump or what does it do? There's no ignition to turn off, right? It seems there should be a way to use all that compression to help slow things down.

Comment:
I have thought about what I would do (but with  gasoline engine rigs), in the case of lost brakes. And I have had to use it once, but only to help, by shifting into the lowest gear. But I didn't totally lose all the brakes, I had a brake line burst open for the rear brakes as I was braking down a deep hill. It was scary, pedal goes down to near the floor, but I was able to slow enough to stop and avoid any damage. Fortunately,   most of the braking power is in the front and with the help of the tranny in low, as well as using the parking brake, I was able to come to an almost normal stop in an almost normal stopping distance.

I have heard of one other person who totally lost brakes but was able to stop by shifting his automatic tranny into REVERSE. It damaged the tranny, but it did stop. What would happen in a diesel if it were forced into reverse?

Comment:
In the newer diesels the transmission will not shift into an unsafe gear so you would have to be either stopped or nearly so to have the transmission shift into reverse.

Computers are smarter than people.   

-Don- SSF, CA

[Gypsy Rovers]

Don, I'll try to answer the questions without getting into the technicalities too deep.  

Yes you can shift transmission down but, on most large class A diesels the shift pad is on a side panel not easily reached in high stress situations.  Shifting down, even to 1st gear will not have the same effect as a normal manual transmission, the speed sensor/computer will not allow the transmission to over speed the engine so will only shift down when it's in a safe range.

Yes you could shut the ignition off to stop the injectors and would gain some braking effect from compression BUT, we're back to the transmission/computer not allowing it to downshift.  In this case you would also lose your power steering just adding to the challenge.

Gary's problem is a worse case situation, no warning that he was losing air pressure, which he probably wasn't, just no pressure or effect from the pedal.  You'll recognize that he had seconds (a few at that!) to react to a situation rapidly going from bad to worse, pulling the emergency brake should have dumped all the air from the rear brakes and allowed the springs to apply full brakes but on the rear axle only.  

As mentioned previously the rear brakes may have applied but not sufficiently to lock up the wheels (no skid marks) and he was working without the front brakes of the coach and depending on his supplementary braking system perhaps without the toad brakes as well

I'm so glad that the situation worked out with out any serious injuries, it seems Gary's reactions to crises is as level headed as his contributions to the forum.

Dale

[ArdraF]

Don, one of the gals who used to work for me lived on a hill and lost her brakes coming down to work one day.  She did exactly the same thing - put it in reverse.  I'm not sure I ever would have thought of that but she did and it worked, although it messed up the car.  But she stopped safely and that was the important thing.

ArdraF

[DonTom]

Gary's problem is a worse case situation, no warning that he was losing air pressure, which he probably wasn't, just no pressure or effect from the pedal.

I just hope it gets figured out. IMO, the worse thing that can happen now is that there is nothing found to be wrong. IOW, a one time intermittent failure.

A long time ago, I had a car that would not brake one time and one time only. The pedal went all the way to the floor once (okay after second try).  Not just half way as if only one section of the system  had air. It was as if there was a lot of air in both lines. Never gave a problem after that one single time, but I changed the master cylinder the next day, as a guess of what caused it.   

-Don- SSF, CA

[Mark R.]

Good to hear all are well, do you have a gut feel as to weather your rig is totaled or repairable?

[Bob Maxwell]

Hug her close, pet the cat and thank God. I am!

[Jim Godward]

Glad all are OK.  Best wishes to you all as you work your way through this.

[Jim Dick]

To all our Framily,

We happened to be traveling in the opposing direction from Gary & Nancy. Pat had called them to inquire where they might be located only to hear the accident had just occurred. . We were shocked to say the least. Today we were able to spend a little time with them. They are doing well but I know the shock of it all is still present. I doubt any of us would be able to do more than Gary did to lessen the results given the circumstances. We are thankful they were not injured!

[Tom]

Thanks for the update Jim. From personal experience, shock is often delayed and can be long lasting. We're sure wishing the very best for Gary and Nancy as they put the pieces back together.

[joelmyer]

WOW!  Glad you're all OK.

[hpykmpr]

Well, our freedom celebration trip got cut dramatically short today.  

Wow ,sorry to hear about this ,it must have been a frightening experience and I sure am glad that no one was hurt .I expect that your coach had air brakes as I think it is a diesel and having driven a diesel truck a lot of years ago i cannot get a handle on what would have happened to your brakes without any warning. Once again glad to hear you are all okay.

[Dave R]

Thank God you both are okay.

Dave & Jeanette

[Chet18013]

Hi Gary & Nancy,

What a fright you two must have had. The most important thing is that is that both of you had no physical injuries.

I hope you get the Spartan folks involved in checking out the cause of your brake failure. I'm sure they might be able to shed some light on the probable cause. The failure of the emergency brake is baffling. Did it finally lock the rear wheels and have to be manually released before the vehicle could be towed? All I can think of is that the air supply line to the brake peddle and the supply line to pressurize the rear brake spring actuators must be run in parallel and
chose that moment to become kinked, pinching off both of the plastic air lines at the same time. This of course could be an assembly problem from the time of manufacture.

Chet

[FrontrangeRVer]

Wow Gary!  Im late to the party also!  That is quite an amazing ordeal!  Im sure you were yelling out to "BRACE YOURSELF" alot, and Im glad you guys came out with YOUR HEALTH!

Gary, please let us all know WHY this happened, as the final brake issue is going to be very important to us all.

[GKman]

k. I keep thinking about what I could have done differently

I've been in several accidents, including one with a young woman killed.  Accidents happen so quickly there is no time to think.  The only thing you could do was what you did do.  The fatal accident involved the other driver sliding off the opposite side of the road, catching traction on the shoulder in a skid and rebounding into my lane.  A guardrail could do the same.

Feelings tell us we're responsible, there is something we could have done differently (if we were superman and had it to do over).  Intellect tells us a different story.  You did a million things right, it happened anyway.  ER's, junkyards and body shops do a booming business, sometimes fate just chooses us instead of the next guy.  Move on.

[Jackliz]

Gary and Nancy,
We are so glad that you and Blackie did not get hurt, and that no one else got hurt, either. WOW. Y'all have been through so much lately, too. Hug each other a lot.

Best regards,
Jack and Liz

[RV Roamer]

It will be interesting to find out why the parking brake didn't apply.  Air brakes are supposed to be fail safe.

I've been talking with another American Coach owner who has a truck fleet and is thoroughly knowledgeable about air brake systems. He says the only way to get my symptoms is for the brake pedal assembly to come loose from its mount on the firewall or the pivot pin on the pedal to fail. In either case, the pedal no longer acts as a lever and does not open the Treadle (air) valve or activate the switch that shuts off the cruise control and activates the engine brake.  My brake pedal is down flat on the floor and seems loose from its mount, but that area was pushed in during the accident and I have no way to tell if that is accident damage or the cause of the problem in the first place. My gut says that was the problem, though, cause everything else fits.

I also have the Freightliner adjustable pedal system, which makes the pedal mechanism more complex and probably adds another possible point of failure. Something could have broken there as well. I may never know just what it was unless a clever mechanic can distinguish pre vs post accident condition.

I never lost brake air or got an alarm, at least not until I pulled the Emergency/Park handle. My recollection is that there was no pedal in the anticipated place when I pushed my foot down. My foot went to the floor before it hit the pedal. It is my belief the pedal had come loose somehow and there simply was no brake pedal function there for me the use.

It also appears the spring driven emergency brake probably worked. I'm told it just doesn't have enough force to lock the brakes at that speed, especially if the brake slack adjusters have not been regularly adjusted. The truck brake guy I mentioned above says the auto adjusters just don't do much on motorhomes because they do not get backed up very often or very fast and simply don't get a chance to do much auto-adjusting. He recommends a manual slack adjustment annually, e.g. at each oil change. He says that the brakes can easily get so slack that the park/emergency brake is only 60% effective. And remember, the park/emergency brake is rear wheel only, so you only have 50% brakes to start with. So get those rear drum brakes adjusted at your next chassis service.

[RV Roamer]

Pat & Jim Dick came by on Friday and loaded our freezer full of meat into their fridge, saving us one big headache. We had a ton of ribs for the rally plus a couple pot roasts and a London Broil we planned to use at another affair after we left the Fall Rally.  The physical hugs helped even more - we needed them badly!

We've been packing our personal gear in boxes and loading into the back of the Acadia. We decided we had enough room without getting a U-Haul, but it was tight! Gave away a bunch of other frozen food to the guy who towed us in and also donated Nancy's potted plants to his wife.

I've been trying to reach a motorhome collision repair shop called Mike's Collision Center in Wilmington, NC, to arrange to have the coach towed there and repaired. They had already closed when i called at 3 pm on Friday and nobody on Saturday either. I left voicemail and sent an email, so hope to hear something soon. Looks like a good place, though, with their own frame shop and 45 foot long spray booth for painting big rigs.

Nancy and I expect to leave Selma on Sunday morning and stop to visit a friend in southern South Carolina Sunday night. They will give us a room, a stiff drink, a good meal and a lot of sympathy and we need all of that!

[Tom]

Sounds like you're starting to get organized Gary. I can't imagine having to deal with all that stuff and the coach repair soon after the accident and far from home. Glad to hear that Jim and Pat were able to help.

A loose or detached brake pedal was the only thing that seemed to make sense to me but, without seeing the coach, I didn't want to offer the guess. Interesting input re the slack adjusters.

I took a peek at Mike's Collision Center web site; Looks like a very capable shop.

[Mark R.]

There is another scenario that will cause the emergency brake not to work properly, (not to say this had anything to do with Gary's stop), the exhaust vents for the emergency brake cylinder can become blocked. If the vents get blocked or partially blocked it will cause the emergency brake to not work or to actuate slowly. In my case I would release the parking/ emergency brake but the rig would not move, after several minutes the rig would go, turned out that a mud wasp decided to pack the perfect sized vent hole with mud and eggs Funny how a single bug can turn a safety device called fail safe by the experts on a million dollar rig into a useless red knob on the dash board!

[Pierat]

Man, that's truly scary. We are so glad you two are okay. Best wishes to you, and here's hoping you've gotten all the bad stuff out of the way from now on. (BTW, I know the tow's brakes wouldn't come close to stopping the coach, but wonder if they would have left tracks?)

[RV Roamer]

Nancy & I want to take this opportunity to thank the many forum members who called, emailed , PM'ed, etc. to lend their moral support and offer physical help of all kinds.  This is truly a wonderful community of "Framily" and we are blessed to have so many fine friends.