Author Topic: Shoping for a new Digital Camera  (Read 2456 times)

Dan Walters

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Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« on: October 28, 2009, 09:06:45 AM »
Well, I've been looking into replacing my point-and-shoot digital camera with a better camera.  I've been reading the posts from Tom about his new Cannon DSLR and the expert opinions from Tom, Bob, Jim, Ron and others who are experienced photographers.  I've also looked at the pictures that many of you have taken and posted with you DSLR camera's and all of them are great looking photo's.  This makes me want to seriously consider upgrading my camera.  On our recent trip to Colorado, I took about 400 pictures, but many were not very good and none of them came close to capturing the beauty of the things we saw.

Anyway, I just wanted to ask your opinions on what kind of digital camera to buy.  I'm not as concerned with the brand of camera as I am with it meeting my photography needs without spending more money than I need to.  Mainly, I'll be using the camera for taking pictures of family, vacations and trips, some wildlife and other things I'm interested in capturing.  Before going to the point-and-shoot digital cameras, I had a Minolta SLR 35mm with two lenses, one telephoto.  I took many great pictures with that camera and enjoyed photography very much.  The last 20 years, I've just been lazy using cheap cameras to take poor pictures and would like to go back to better photography.

What are your opinions on the better fixed lens digital cameras, such as the Cannon Power Shot or Panasonic FZ-35, versus an entry level DSLR with 2 lenses?  I know the DSLR is more flexible as far as adding lenses and other accessories, but are the pictures that much better than the higher end fixed lens cameras?  Is it worth the extra money for the DSLR camera and if I got a fixed lens camera, will I wish I had gotten a DSLR?

All opinions are appreciated.  Thanks.

Dan
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

seilerbird

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2009, 09:17:32 AM »
Well, I've been looking into replacing my point-and-shoot digital camera with a better camera.  I've been reading the posts from Tom about his new Cannon DSLR and the expert opinions from Tom, Bob, Jim, Ron and others who are experienced photographers.  I've also looked at the pictures that many of you have taken and posted with you DSLR camera's and all of them are great looking photo's.  This makes me want to seriously consider upgrading my camera.  On our recent trip to Colorado, I took about 400 pictures, but many were not very good and none of them came close to capturing the beauty of the things we saw.

Anyway, I just wanted to ask your opinions on what kind of digital camera to buy.  I'm not as concerned with the brand of camera as I am with it meeting my photography needs without spending more money than I need to.  Mainly, I'll be using the camera for taking pictures of family, vacations and trips, some wildlife and other things I'm interested in capturing.  Before going to the point-and-shoot digital cameras, I had a Minolta SLR 35mm with two lenses, one telephoto.  I took many great pictures with that camera and enjoyed photography very much.  The last 20 years, I've just been lazy using cheap cameras to take poor pictures and would like to go back to better photography.

What are your opinions on the better fixed lens digital cameras, such as the Cannon Power Shot or Panasonic FZ-35, versus an entry level DSLR with 2 lenses?  I know the DSLR is more flexible as far as adding lenses and other accessories, but are the pictures that much better than the higher end fixed lens cameras?  Is it worth the extra money for the DSLR camera and if I got a fixed lens camera, will I wish I had gotten a DSLR?

All opinions are appreciated.  Thanks.

Dan

The fixed lens point and shoots look like a DSLR but they are a point and shoot and there is no getting around it. DSLRs offer much better image quality. A single lens that has a 12 to 1 zoom, or greater can never compete with a dedicated lens that has a 3 to 1 or a 4 to 1 zoom, or a prime lens. The 12 to 1s will be very soft and both ends of the zoom. The worst part of the point and shoots is low light results. DSLRs have far superior performance in low light situations, whether or not it is taken in natural light or with a flash. Point and shoots start deteriorating at 400 ISO and at 800 ISO are unusable. DSLRs can usually go up to 1600 with no problem and the more expensive ones can go to 6400 no problem. No point and shoot even has 6400 as an option. The flash on a point and shoot is very weak, usually crapping out before 10 feet, whereas on a DSLR it can usually get out to 15 to 20 feet no problem. Most point and shoots use AA batteries and battery life is very poor. DSLRs use a much better battery that is rechargable. Typical AA batteries go for a few hundred shot and typical DSLR batteries go for 1000 up to 3000 shots. The advanced point and shoots are merely a wolf in sheeps clothing. If you want to get serious about photography then a DSLR is your only real option.
Tom

On the road living in the National Parks in a 27' 1985 Tiffin Allegro

My photos are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/seilerbird

Leaving 5-1-2010 for my trip - here is the trip route: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101303567043899967803.00047ba4332df200e24bb&z=4

Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2009, 09:30:44 AM »
Here's a review of the Panasonic FZ35 (aka FZ38):

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0907/09072704panafz38.asp
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Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2009, 09:35:20 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for that summary, and for your opinion.  I was thinking the same thing about expensive digital point-and-shoot camera's, but didn't really know if they were anywhere close to DSLR camera picture quality.  I know there was a big difference in my old Minolta SLR picture quality and the other film cameras.  I was really leaning toward a DSLR but didn't know if I really needed it.  Your answer is very helpful in making my decision.  Thanks.

Dan
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2009, 09:40:27 AM »
Tom,

Thanks for that link.  I will read that review and take it into consideration.  I still think I want a DSLR camera.  How do you like yours so far?

Dan
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #5 on: October 28, 2009, 09:48:33 AM »
Dan,

As Tom (seillerbird) said in an earlier discussion, the XSi is more camera than I need (probably more than I can use). But I'm going to stick it out for a while since I have 90 days to return it.

The FZ35 looked quite good until I started reading some of the discussion on that site. They seem to be complaining about noise at medium-high ISO. Haven' read enough to figure out if it was just one guy, or if it's an issue with the camera/lens.

As Bob mentioned in one of our recent discussions, the Panasonic cameras we're talking about, including my FZ7, are not point and shoot, although I frequently refer to mine as such; They're quite a long way from a PAS camera, they provide control over a number of parameters, and they have a P mode. They also use a rechargable lithium ion battery with quite long life.
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Marsha/CA

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #6 on: October 28, 2009, 09:57:34 AM »
Hi Dan,

I'm very adept with my Canon DSLR and my husband is much more comfortable with a point and shoot camera.  I did quite a a bit of research before last Christmas and bought him a Canon Power Shot point an shoot.  That little camera is EXCEPTIONAL.  The pictures are very good at indoor/outdoor shots, and has various modes to use, which are quick and easy to acess.  Often a point and shoot has a "view finder" menu that you need to scroll through to make different selections.  The Power Shot has a dial on the top for quick changes in settings.  It also has an exceptional movie feature with sound that is equal to or better than my Sony digital movie camera.  It has a "fish" eye view finder or your can use the full body view.  It fits in his pocket.   It does not take AA batteries, but has a single rechargeable battery that last an extremely long time.  That's also the great thing about my Canon Rebel, the batteries are exceptional.  The only thing we found lacking was sport shots; if you forget to dial the camera to "sports", the pictures may be blurry.

Often I'll leave my camera at home, because his takes such good pictures, is light weight and so easy to use.

Marsha~
Allegro Bus Diesel Pusher with Hyundai Tucson SUV toad. 
In case of necessity, alternate form of transportation is available in the form of 1 horse.

Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #7 on: October 28, 2009, 10:09:39 AM »
Thanks Tom and Marsha.  This is just what I need to help me make a decision.  I am using a Sony digital camera now that takes good pictures sometimes, but not always.  It has a dial on top also and has a P mode.  Still, the quality of the shots are not as good as I would like them to be.  I will read more on the FZ38 and the Power Shot.  Thanks.

Dan
Dan
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1998 Allegro Class A

Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #8 on: October 28, 2009, 10:37:48 AM »
Quote from: Marsha/CA
I'm very adept with my Canon DSLR ..

Marsha,

We need to sign you and Ron M up to teach a class or two on DSLR photography at one of the rallies.
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Hfx_Cdn

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #9 on: October 28, 2009, 11:48:43 AM »
   Did you say 8 AM day 2 at Qz, I'm signing up now, but I do have one question, do I bring coffee & Khalua or vodka & OJ.  Oh heck, I'll bring both  ???
Ed & Donna
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Wendy

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #10 on: October 28, 2009, 01:03:10 PM »
Ed, Did you say 8 am? Most of us at Qtz don't do 8 am, even with Kahlua and Vodka  :D

Wendy
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Hfx_Cdn

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #11 on: October 28, 2009, 02:17:49 PM »
    I plan on doing it on the underside, that is to say, before I go to bed, hence the coffee & Kahlua, but you name ther time as you're the prof  ;)
Ed & Donna
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Marsha/CA

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #12 on: October 28, 2009, 06:55:30 PM »
Tom, 

Ron M. is the "whiz-kid" as far as photography goes, he's got lots of ribbons; I'm just self-proclaimed.....and then there is Seilerbird with his great bird/wildlife photos.  However, I can teach you how to ride a horse; or to do "blue" jobs on the RVs; as well as teach the Mexican Train game.    ;D

Ed, I actually wondered if you were considering staying up until 8AM for the class. 

Side note:  I'm in a book club with neighborhood ladies, I recommended the book we read and most of them didn't like it.  The meeting was at my house and I served mimosas (champagne &  OJ) this afternoon; the discussion was lively and after a couple of glasses they decided they really liked the book!

2nd side note:  I think this year we'll bring our 10" Schmidt-Cassogram (spelling ?) telescope to QZ for sky viewing.  I need to look at what type of moon will be happening.  If it's a full or 3/4 moon, it doesn't work well.  We'll give it some thought.

Marsha~
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In case of necessity, alternate form of transportation is available in the form of 1 horse.

Wendy

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #13 on: October 28, 2009, 07:20:59 PM »
Side note:  I'm in a book club with neighborhood ladies, I recommended the book we read and most of them didn't like it. 

So what was the book?

Wendy
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
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Marsha/CA

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #14 on: October 28, 2009, 07:28:15 PM »
The Thirteenth Tale by Dianne Setterfield or something like that.

BTW, my camera is working very well..... ;)

Leave it to staff to do thread drift.

Marsha~
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seilerbird

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #15 on: October 28, 2009, 07:42:03 PM »
I would be delighted to teach some photo courses at a rally.
Tom

On the road living in the National Parks in a 27' 1985 Tiffin Allegro

My photos are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/seilerbird

Leaving 5-1-2010 for my trip - here is the trip route: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101303567043899967803.00047ba4332df200e24bb&z=4

Wendy

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #16 on: October 28, 2009, 08:46:29 PM »
I would be delighted to teach some photo courses at a rally.

So will you be at Quartzsite???

Wendy
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
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seilerbird

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #17 on: October 28, 2009, 10:37:52 PM »
I could be. I am currently in Las Vegas leaving for Phoenix on Friday and I will be there a few months. When is the rally?
Tom

On the road living in the National Parks in a 27' 1985 Tiffin Allegro

My photos are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/seilerbird

Leaving 5-1-2010 for my trip - here is the trip route: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101303567043899967803.00047ba4332df200e24bb&z=4

Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #18 on: October 29, 2009, 09:13:24 AM »
Tom (Seilerbird),

What is you opinion of the Nikon D5000?  If I get the camera with the 18-55mm kit lens, should I also get a telephoto lens (maybe a 55-200mm)?  I've been reading a lot of reviews on many different cameras and thought the Nikon D5000 sounds like a good starter DSLR.  What do you and others think?

Dan
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

BernieD

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #19 on: October 29, 2009, 09:25:01 AM »
Walter

Just saw a Costco ad for the D5000 including both lenses, carry case, etc. No price shown.
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seilerbird

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2009, 09:25:23 AM »
I shot a Nikon F2 film camera for 25 years so I am a bit prejudiced. I think Nikon makes great cameras. I don't read alot about Nikon since I have a Canon so I don't keep up on all the latest models like I should. Whenever I need an opinion on something like this I go to Amazon's user reviews. There are 54 reviews and it averages 4 stars. There are 7 one star reviews and they all seem to be complaining about a power switch recall that happened last July. I am sure the problem is solves since the buyers since then all seem to love the camera. I don't think you can go wrong with either a D5000 or a Rebel. Here is a link to the d5000 user reviews - reviews

I think it would be the perfect starter camera. I would also highly recommend the 55-200 since the 18-55 is a great lens but very restrictive.
Tom

On the road living in the National Parks in a 27' 1985 Tiffin Allegro

My photos are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/seilerbird

Leaving 5-1-2010 for my trip - here is the trip route: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101303567043899967803.00047ba4332df200e24bb&z=4

Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2009, 09:41:17 AM »
Thanks Tom and Bernie.  I'll read those reviews and also check out Costco for the kit with both lenses.  I've never owned a Nikon (only a Minolta), but my son had a Nikon 35mm and he loved his.  If anyone else has a Nikon D5000 or has an opinion on one I'd love to hear from you.  Thanks again.

Dan
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

Wendy

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2009, 10:12:15 AM »
Tom, The Quartzsite rally is Jan 16-24. Some arrive early, some leave later. Check the thread here for info. We have a good time.

Wendy
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
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JerArdra

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #23 on: November 01, 2009, 06:43:54 PM »
Dan,

Take a look at the NEW Panasonic FZ35.  Here is a review:

http://www.dpreview.com/news/0907/09072704panafz38.asp

JerryF
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RoyM

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #24 on: November 01, 2009, 08:54:12 PM »
Dan, I picked up on your comment about your old Minolta. I inherited mom's SLR, a Minolta, with all the attachments. She was an accomplished amateur photographer. I kinda hate to let go of the body, it is a treat to use but not very useful any more. I am considering a DSLR, my point and shoot is good but very limited, and would like to get one that will accept mom's lenses. I understand the brand is gone but there might be other brands that use the same mount.

Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #25 on: November 02, 2009, 06:13:30 PM »
Jerry, thanks for that link.  It sounds like that is a good camera and would be very easy to use.  I'm still considering what to do, but am kinda leaning toward the DSLR at this point, but that might change.

Roy, I've heard that some camera will accept the Minolta lenses but I don't know which ones they are.  I loved my Minolta but, unfortunately, the shutter quit working on it and it was going to cost so much to fix it that I sold it to someone "as is" with the knowledge that the shutter was broken.  If I had not owned that camera, I probably wouldn't be looking at DSLR's now.
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

Howard Rawley

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #26 on: November 03, 2009, 03:13:27 AM »
Dan,

A couple of points that I don't think have been mentioned ... based on my experience with an older Kodak point and shoot with a 10X optical zoom and a not quite so old Nikon D50 DSLR.

The D50 turns on much faster and zoom is manual as opposed to motor driven on the Kodak.  While this is not a problem with a lot of uses, it can make a big difference at times.

I like to shoot at airshows, EAA's annual week long event in Oshkosh, WI being a favorite.  Using the Kodak I would lose shots due to the slow zoom.  With the D50 if I lost the airplane I could quickly zoom back out, reacquire and zoom back in easily and quickly.  By the time that happened with the motor driven zoom on the Kodak I often had missed a shot.

Same with having the camera turned off and suddenly "need it NOW!" 

Also the auto focus, while a mixed blessing at times, was much quicker and more responsive on the D50.

Those were some critical points that helped make the choice of the D50 when I was looking to upgrade the Kodak a few years ago. 

And the D50 in auto mode can be used just like a snapshot camera, but has the features to get serious when you want to. 

Prior to getting into digital my primary camera for many, many years was a Mamiyaflex 2 1/4 square twin lens reflex with 3 or 4 lenses.  But when it got to be about a dollar a shot   :o    it put a crimp in the picture taking ... I tend to take a lot of shots!

So now all these posts on Tom's new camera have me thinking and looking to upgrade again ... sure could use those 10-12 mega pixels!   ;D

Howard






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Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #27 on: November 03, 2009, 01:32:09 PM »
Howard,

Thanks.  Those are good points to consider.  With so many digital camera choices, it makes my head spin.  The more I research this the more I realize that it is not a simple decision, even after I decide whether I'll go with a point and shoot or a DSLR.  My wife wants me to get one that is light weight and easy for her to use, but I kinda want a more capable DSLR.  Thanks again for the input.

Dan
Dan
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1998 Allegro Class A

Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #28 on: November 03, 2009, 01:56:23 PM »
Dan,

The FZ35 that Jerry and I posted links to will satisfy the requirement for light weight, and it allows you to control many of the parameters. The biggest downside of a "compact camera" vs DSLR is the inability to change lenses. But, the superzoom on the FZ35sure goes a long way to make up for it. I'm still in my 90 day return window, and wish I could get my hands on the FZ35 for 90 days.

Decisions, decisions   ???
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Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2009, 02:16:54 PM »
Tom,

I agree.  The camera looks like it has a lot of capabilities from the reviews that I have read.  I'd sure like to take some pictures with one and see for myself.  How fast is the zoom on your FZ?  Howard mentioned that his Kodak digital zoom was very slow compared to a DSLR, how does your Canon XSi zoom compare to the Panasonic zoom speed?  I've also missed some shots with my Sony digital camera because it is slow turning on and slow to zoom in.

Dan
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A

Bob Buchanan

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »

The FZ35 that Jerry and I posted links to will satisfy the requirement for light weight, and it allows you to control many of the parameters. The biggest downside of a "compact camera" vs DSLR is the inability to change lenses. But, the superzoom on the FZ35sure goes a long way to make up for it. I'm still in my 90 day return window, and wish I could get my hands on the FZ35 for 90 days.


The terminology can be confusing as well, Tom. SLR described the single lens camera versus the TLR (twin lens camera) -- such as the very popular Rollieflex or the MamiyaFlex (mentioned by Howard previously here) medium format film cameras. One lens was used for viewing whereas the other was used to expose the film. The twin lenses came in pairs as part of a single unit -- and were interchangeable (tele vs. wide angle and so forth). My first medium format camera was the MamiyaFlex.

The SLR allowed viewing through the shooting lens via the reflex mirror, prism system. Non-SLR's had separate viewing - tho not with a second lens of the same type as the shooting lens -- so the quality of viewing was much less. When the digital's came out, most were of that type as well - or with a LCD display of what the shooting lens was seeing. Nikon was probably one of the first to modify an SLR to become a dSLR, but others quickly followed.

Anyway -- my point here is that, to me, SLR and dSLR only describes the type of lens/viewing system that camera uses. My first digital was an Olympus 2500L. It was a "fixed lens" dSLR vs. a interchangeable lens dSLR. I doubt there are any fixed lens dSLR's anymore, but you see my point. My mother bought a Kodak box camera in 1923 that used 620 film. That "was" a point and shoot camera. You picked up, pointed it at the subject, and pushed the deal that activated the spring that opened the metal thingy that covered the lens.

What appears to have happened tho, terminology wise, is that a dSLR now seems to imply interchangeable lenses plus tons of other stuff that non-dSLR's do not have. And all other cameras are P/S's. And I find that "very" misleading. As Jerry points out, the gap between the features of a camera with a SLR viewing system vs. one that does not have such a TTL real time viewing, is getting smaller and smaller.

In addition to interchangeable lenses, and method of viewing -- the other biggy is the size of the sensor between the two. If a non-SLR and an SLR both have 10mp resolution - the dSLR's will be larger. So each pixel can store more "light" data and make the RAW a better digital negative to work with. Other items to look at are the speed of AF and other such items that Howard mentions. The side by sides are great for that. Flash sync speed and fastest shutter speed also come to mind. For example, I believe your XSi is 1/4000 sec vs. the FZ-35 is 1/2000. My 50D is 1/8000. BTW, each only represents one f-stop over the others.

Sorry if I've rambled -- but wanted to make the point of how misleading the current terminology can be. And it is too bad that it has categorized digital's into point and shoot vs. dSLR's . . . IMO!  :) :)
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 03:51:54 PM by Bob Buchanan »
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JerArdra

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2009, 03:47:03 PM »
Tom,

I went to a camera store and used an FZ35.  I took my own battery and SD card.  It worked nice.  The photos were great and the only downside, for me, was the electric control switch for the zoom lens.  It zooms via an electric motor.  On my Panasonic FZ30 as well as the FZ20s and FZ50s you are able to manually turn a ring on the lens barrel to zoom just like you do on a DSLR.  I prefer the ring to zoom.  But in defense of the FZ35 camera the zoom switch has 2-speeds.  Push it all the way left or right and the zoom moves really fast but push it half way left or right and it moves much slower.  This slower zoom speed is nice for framing a telephoto picture so the subject fills the entire picture frame.  I was a bit uneasy using the electric zoom at first but yes I could get used to it okay.

JerryF

JerryF  ;D  ;D

Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2009, 03:52:31 PM »
Dan,

I too have missed shots, but I can't detect any difference in turn-on speed between my Panasonic FZ7 and my Canon XSi. As for the power zoom, I was just playing with it before posting this message, and I doubt I'd be able to manually zoom the XSi much faster; Maybe when I'm more accomplished with it. This might be different with the FZ35's 18X zoom (greater distance to rotate/travel?) So far, I've managed to miss shots with the XSi due to my slow manual zoom; I was trying to snap some flying geese last evening, but missed them on several tries. I also missed some pics of our grandkids with the XSi last week.

It's possible that some of the comments you're reading here relate to earlier digital/point-and-shoot cameras. OTOH there might be some comparative info at the dpreview.com site, either in the reviews or in user feedback.

I'm slowly resigning myself to the idea that, if I stick with what I have, I'll use the Panasonic 'compact camera' for those spur-of-the-moment pictures, and use the Canon DSLR if/when I have the time to worry about composing the shot and figuring out which settings I need.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2009, 03:54:25 PM »
Thanks for that report Jerry. My FZ7 doesn't have a manual zoom, so I've become quite used to the electric zoom.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2009, 04:24:21 PM »
Tom,

Thanks again.  Yours and others input is most valuable.  I'm sure I would miss some shots with a DSLR as well.  As others have said here, it's probably more a function of how good the photographer is rather than how good the camera is.

By the way, have you seen the discount offer that began on November 1 on the Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens combined with the purchase of a Canon 55-250mm IS zoom lens from Amazon and other online sellers?  Amazon has that combination for $643 with free shipping after a $200 discount at checkout.  It seems to be a Canon instant rebate because I saw the same $200 savings from several online sellers.  There is also a $100 discount on the Rebel XS with a non-stabilized zoom lens.  That sounded like a pretty good deal to me and not a whole lot more than the nonchargeable single lens digital superzoom cameras like the FZ38 or the Canon Powershot SX20.

Dan
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2009, 04:30:48 PM »
Hi Bob, understand the terminology confusion. In recent messages, I've corrected my terminology for non-DSLR cameras such as the FZ-7, FZ-30 & FZ-35 to be "compact cameras". I'd forgotten this term untils I started reading various manufacturer and support sites.

Maybe equally confusing is the fact that the FZ-7, FZ-30 and our vest pocket point-and-shoot FX-9 all use the same engine and have many overlapping features and capabilities.

FWIW when we were supplying chips to most (all?) of the camera manufacturers, we referred to the entire business segment as "DSC" (digital still camera). Electronically, once the sensor is defined, image capture and signal processing is essentially the same, irrespective of what lenses, mirrors, prisms, etc the camera manufacturer hangs in front of it. Of course, this technology has changed quite a bit over the last 10 years, and this might no longer be true.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2009, 04:49:49 PM »
Dan,

That does sound like a good deal for the XSi kit, but I need to go find my Costco receipt. I recall there was a $100 instant rebate from Canon (at checkout), but they may have decided to up that to $200. I'll be in a Costco store later this week, and I'll check to see if they now have the same $200 discount that Amazon is offering. (It doesn't show up online.)

There were a few additional goodies thrown in with the Costco deal, including the Rebel bag and the DVD tutorial (IIRC that costs $49.95). This is quite normal with Costco purchases - they often get the manufacturer or supplier to provide additional goodies at no cost to the consumer. Cell phones are another example, where activation fees are waived, as are early service cancelation fees, and they throw in additional chargers. Of course, there's also the Costco 90 days return privileges on all electronics, and their 2-year warranty.
« Last Edit: November 03, 2009, 04:55:35 PM by Tom »
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #37 on: November 04, 2009, 04:54:57 AM »
Quote from: Dan Walters
... have you seen the discount offer that began on November 1 on the Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens combined with the purchase of a Canon 55-250mm IS zoom lens ... Amazon has that combination for $643 with free shipping after a $200 discount at checkout.

Dan, do you have a link to that offer? I tried finding it on Amazon, but they seem to offer a confusing mixture of kits that include the XSi. Here's one XSi kit, but the price is $829.95 after the $200 rebate. If I select the XSi with 18-55mm lens and add the 55-250mm lens separately, the price is $828.66 without the other stuff in the kit.

I just checked my Costco invoice and it shows $779.99 after a $150 rebate at checkout (I was mistaken about the rebate being only $100). I'm still curious if Costco now has the $200 rebate.

Maybe there's a difference in lenses and I'm not comparing apples with apples (?)
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2009, 06:23:25 AM »
    Tom, FWIW I couldn't find it either
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2009, 08:13:11 AM »
Dan,

There are many point and shoot cameras that will take excellent pictures. I own a Nikon 990 that has a 3 megapixel resolution. It has taken many great photos. I also have the Canon Digital Rebel and the 40D. The biggest difference of DSLR's and P&S cameras is the lack of delay with the DSLR. You can miss a lot of action shots using the P&S because the shutter delay is too long.
Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #40 on: November 04, 2009, 10:11:17 AM »
Tom,

I don't think Amazon has that kit advertised together, and they don't show the real discounted price until you get to the checkout.  If you put the Canon XSi camera with the 18-55mm kit lens, the Canon 55-250mm IS zoom lens and the Tiffen UV protection filter together in your shopping cart, the $200 instant rebate will apply upon checkout and the final number comes to $643 and change.  I went all the way through checkout so I could see the final price but didn't finalize the order when it got to the "pay now" part.  I had seen this on a camera forum when I was researching the Canon and Nikon cameras.  I'm not very good at adding links, but I will try.  This link should take you to the kit.  Scroll down and look at the "items frequently bought together" and add all three to the shopping cart.  The discount will apply at checkout.  Hope that link works.

Jim, thanks for that perspective.  I think that's one of the reasons I'm still considering a DSLR instead of a better point and shoot camera.  Sometimes my grandkids move faster than the shutter on my Sony and I miss the shot.

Dan
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #41 on: November 04, 2009, 10:35:10 AM »
Thanks Dan. I followed that link for the separate pieces "bought together" last night, put them in my basket, but didn't proceed to checkout. That probably explains why I didn't see the $200 rebate. Did you buy it yet?  ;D
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #42 on: November 04, 2009, 10:39:11 AM »
Tom,

No, not yet.  I see the instant rebate is good until 11/21/09.  My birthday is coming up on 11/19/09, so I'm trying to drop some hints at what I want for my birthday.  Still can't decide which camera, though.  Need to make up my mind soon.  Thanks.

Dan
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #43 on: November 04, 2009, 10:41:00 AM »
Dan,

I'm waiting for you to buy it at that price, so I can return mine to Costco and buy at the lower price. So be sure to buy it soon enough before the 11/21 deadline  ;D
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #44 on: November 04, 2009, 12:37:45 PM »
I do believe the only way you get the instant rebate is if you are a registered Canon owner.
Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #45 on: November 04, 2009, 12:48:24 PM »
Apparently the Amazon offer expired Nov. 2: http://www.techbargains.com/product/canon_xsi
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #46 on: November 04, 2009, 01:03:22 PM »
Back to the drawing board Dan  :(
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #47 on: November 04, 2009, 03:33:13 PM »
Well, I don't know what that's about, but the instant rebate is from Canon and is available through any Canon authorized dealer from November 1 to November 21, 2009 as shown here on Canon's web site.  When I checked Amazon this morning, the discount still showed up in checkout and the instant rebate message is still showing up on Amazon's site here.  So maybe I'm not too late after all.

Dan
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #48 on: November 04, 2009, 11:54:07 PM »
>>Sometimes my grandkids move faster than the shutter on my Sony and I miss the shot.<<

Dan,

Grandkids will always challenge the abilities of a point and shoot camera! ;D Attached are two photos I took at a Blue Angels air show at Kennedy Space Center last year. I was using the Canon 40D with the Canon 100-400 L series IM lens. Couldn't do that with a P&S!
Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #49 on: November 05, 2009, 01:59:44 AM »
Hi Jim. Those are the kind of photos I can only hope to be able to shoot one day. Care to tell us something about camera settings? How critical would the L series lens be in this application?

Photos I took of the Blue Angels over San Francisco Bay (see this message) sure look anemic after seeing yours. Mine were taken using a Sony P&S with 10X lens and image stabilizer. As you correctly say, a P&S can't take photos like the ones you shared with us.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #50 on: November 05, 2009, 04:35:10 AM »
Tom

The telephoto lens in Jim's photo do really tell a wonderful story about a specific airplane.

BUT the ones you took also tell a story.  You have an very intresting photo of the Golden Gate bridge with fog and the Angles.  That faming tells a very different story.  Nice photo of the bridge, the fog and the Angles adds to the story.

I shoot with both a point and shoot and a DLSR.  Each has its place.  The advantage to the DLSR is the ability to change lenses and get the photo Jim took of the airplanes.  Change his lens and he would be able to capture the photo you took.  Advantage of the point and shoot is it fits neatly in your pocket and can be carried very easily.  Both have their place.

Its the photographer that decides what to put in to the frame and which type of cameras to use.

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #51 on: November 05, 2009, 07:01:25 AM »
I highly recommend the Nikon D90 with an 18-105mm lens.  This camera setup will give amateurs to semi-pros excellent photos in a wide array of settings.  Buy a Blue Crane training DVD (www.bluecranedigital.com) and in no time you'll be taking pictures like the pros!

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #52 on: November 05, 2009, 07:58:40 AM »
Tom
Hi Jim. Those are the kind of photos I can only hope to be able to shoot one day. Care to tell us something about camera settings? How critical would the L series lens be in this application?

Photos I took of the Blue Angels over San Francisco Bay (see this message) sure look anemic after seeing yours. Mine were taken using a Sony P&S with 10X lens and image stabilizer. As you correctly say, a P&S can't take photos like the ones you shared with us.
,

Tom,

An L-series lens would not be necessary for shots like that. A good IS system is much more important. As you know I was using the 100-400 zoom on the Canon 40D. I used the sports setting which provides continuous focusing. Then I tried to pick up the plane as it came close and panned, in this case, from right to left while holding the shutter release open. That provided several quick shots of which I got one good one. :-) The wonderful thing about digital is you can throw away all the bad shots and it doesn't cost anything.

As with any photo shoot like this, one only gets to see what's happening through the view finder. I always try to limit my shooting time so I can really enjoy whatever show is being performed. :-)

It's too bad the Angels weren't at a lower altitude for that shot with the bridge in the foreground. That fog really adds to the shot.
Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #53 on: November 05, 2009, 08:10:06 AM »


Its the photographer that decides what to put in to the frame and which type of cameras to use.



You are absolutely correct! I heard a story one time about a pro with a P&S followed another photographer with an SLR. His photos were as interesting and, in some cases, much better than the guy with the SLR. Composition is a key ingredient for an outstanding shot.

Anyone that would like to see some other shots can go to http://photo.net/photos/jimdick. I have a few posted and need to post more.I would be interested in anyone's opinion on the photos.
« Last Edit: November 05, 2009, 08:15:34 AM by Jim Dick »
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #54 on: November 05, 2009, 09:05:26 AM »
Jim
I shoot with a Nikon D70.  I have several lenses including my favorite for outside action, wildlife etc....  Its the 70-200 2.8 VR.  Its fast for sports action and very good for wildlife.

The P&S I use is an Olympic.  I Carry it all the time.  In many places you get hard looks or even a request to not shoot.  I like to shoot my grand kids at the public pool.  No problem with the P&S but the staff balks when I bring out the DSLR.

As to learning more about photography.  Check out the local Junior Collage in your area.  Mine offers credit classes as well as Contuning Ed classes.  I am currently enrolled in a Creative Photography class (have taken it several times).  By the way they offer a discount to those of us who live in the county and are over 55.

Roy
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #55 on: November 05, 2009, 09:26:16 AM »
Roy,

I have a Nikon 990 which I have used extensively. I also have the Canon Digital Rebel and 40D. I use the Canon L-series 100-400 IS for most of my long shots. I own a less expensive 70-200 Canon lens but it is not that great. Also have the kit lenses that came with both Canons.

I wish I had time for some classes. ;D I might look into it this winter but I have a lot of irons in the fire that take up much of my time. I did apply for the New York School of Photography back in the '60's. They turned me down! ;D ;D
Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #56 on: November 05, 2009, 09:43:09 AM »

I'm slowly resigning myself to the idea that, if I stick with what I have, I'll use the Panasonic 'compact camera' for those spur-of-the-moment pictures, and use the Canon DSLR if/when I have the time to worry about composing the shot and figuring out which settings I need.

Tom,

After getting my Nikon D50 that is much the way I operated with the old Kodak digital ... kept it out in the mh for those quick spur of the moment shots.  And at the airshows carried the Kodak as backup and also it's limited video capability.

Howard
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #57 on: November 05, 2009, 09:44:06 AM »
This guy got some photos of the Blue Angels I'd have liked to get that day, both over and under the Golden Gate:

http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/

Scroll down to see the Angels. He didn't get fog in the scene though  ;D
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #58 on: November 05, 2009, 09:45:19 AM »
Jim,

Those are great shots.  Boy, you've got a lot of cameras.  I don't think I would ever need that kind of camera power, but I would like one good all around camera to use that is better than the little point and shoot models to take family and vacation type shots that look good.  Which of all of those cameras that you own would you think would fit that bill for me?  Thanks.

Dan
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #59 on: November 05, 2009, 11:27:13 AM »
Methinks that, if our local retired guys club doesn't put on some photography classes, I'll look around for one.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #60 on: November 05, 2009, 11:26:19 PM »

I also have the Canon Digital Rebel and 40D. I use the Canon L-series 100-400 IS for most of my long shots. I own a less expensive 70-200 Canon lens but it is not that great. Also have the kit lenses that came with both Canons.


Hi Jim -- enjoyed reviewing your webpage of images. Good stuff!!!

What is your opinion of the Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens? Have been following about 10 of these on eBay and they are going for around $400 or so. Reviews are good on the ones I have read so far. A 400L series is farther out that I need to go -- plus after investing in my 50D, can't spare those kinda bucks on a long lens.
 
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #61 on: November 06, 2009, 12:29:49 AM »
Hi Dan,

Thanks! I sometimes get lucky. ;D I'm one of those guys that find it hard to get rid of a good camera but always like to stay abreast of what is new. Monetarily I have to temper that feeling. :)

I would personally recommend the latest Canon iteration of their DSLR. The 50D is now out and has some features the 40D is lacking but a 40D at the right price might just fit the bill. I've had great shots with a 3mpx camera and better shots with a 6mpx camera. Not sure if there's a great difference between a 10mpx camera vs a 12mpx camera.

Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #62 on: November 06, 2009, 05:01:52 AM »
FWIW I was in Costco yesterday, and they don't have the $200 rebate. They do, however, have the original $150 rebate (at checkout) on the XSi.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #63 on: November 06, 2009, 06:53:56 AM »
The 70 to 300 Canon lenses are very slow focusing, making then not very good for wildlife. If you want to shoot wildlife with Canon the 100-400 is your only choice if you want to get serious.
Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #64 on: November 06, 2009, 11:30:32 AM »
Hi Jim -- enjoyed reviewing your webpage of images. Good stuff!!!

What is your opinion of the Canon EF 70-300mm f/4-5.6 IS USM Lens? Have been following about 10 of these on eBay and they are going for around $400 or so. Reviews are good on the ones I have read so far. A 400L series is farther out that I need to go -- plus after investing in my 50D, can't spare those kinda bucks on a long lens.
 

Bob,

Thanks. As I said before, I sometimes get lucky. :-) I just posted more yesterday and will continue to add to the folders. I'm allowed 5 uploads a day.

I don't have any experience with the lens you mention but I'm not happy with the 75-300 I own. It seems to be flimsy compared to the L-series or even the kit lens I got with the 40D. Mine does not have the USM focusing or IS. I'd go to a photo shop and try the lens before buying.
Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #65 on: November 06, 2009, 06:37:45 PM »
A couple of times shutter lag has been mentioned for airplane, wildlife, and other action shots  On my Panasonic FZ30 "pseudo" DSLR fixed lens (36 to 420MM optical) the shutter lag is less than 1/10th of a second if pre focused as measured by Steve of Steve's DigiCams in his review of the FZ30.  My question is, is that good or yucky?

JerryF
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #66 on: November 06, 2009, 09:15:43 PM »
A couple of times shutter lag has been mentioned for airplane, wildlife, and other action shots  On my Panasonic FZ30 "pseudo" DSLR fixed lens (36 to 420MM optical) the shutter lag is less than 1/10th of a second if pre focused as measured by Steve of Steve's DigiCams in his review of the FZ30.  My question is, is that good or yucky?

Jerry, I'm looking at long Canon lens. The issue when shooting action such as birds or planes in flight is "total" lag time during a multi shot burst. Total lag time is time to focus plus release the shutter and store the image. My XT would do 3 fps, my 50D will do 5+ fps. Normally I would press the shutter half way down to get focus, then the rest of the way to take the shot.

However, if shooting action such as a bird or plane, I can place my dSLR in a mode that essentially leaves the shutter half way down. So then as the subject moves away from focus, the AF keeps changing the focus -- and in the case of my 50D does that at 5fps (AF plus storing each image).

The lens AF must be able to "keep up" as far as total lag time is concerned when shooting fast action shots. I believe the FZ series have a Continuous AF mode that will keep the lens in focus during a burst, so the question is how fast is "that" lag time?

Not sure where this came up or if I understand the question -- so if I'm explaining oranges and your question was about chairs --  ???  :)
« Last Edit: November 07, 2009, 02:37:00 PM by Bob Buchanan »
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #67 on: November 07, 2009, 06:31:49 PM »
Bob,

Thank you...I see the complete picture now.  I'll have to see what the number of Frames per Second are that the FZ30 can do.  Yes it does have auto focus and I often hold the shutter release down as a pre focus technique.  Good answer thank you.

JerryF
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #68 on: November 07, 2009, 06:54:27 PM »
Bob, does the 50D automatically do that in burst mode, or is there a custom function that you use? (I have one, too lazy at present to find the manual.) Thx - John
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #69 on: November 08, 2009, 02:25:03 AM »
Bob, does the 50D automatically do that in burst mode, or is there a custom function that you use? (I have one, too lazy at present to find the manual.) Thx - John

John, the AF mode on the 50D can be One Shot, AI Focus, or AI Servo -- for One Shot at a time, AI Servo for moving subjects, or AI Focus to make it switch automatically if the subject moves after a one shot setting. There is a AF-Drive button on top -- or, use the quick menu to change modes.

If you find your manual, look on page 84.  :)  
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 04:49:37 AM by Bob Buchanan »
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #70 on: November 08, 2009, 04:20:57 AM »

Thank you...I see the complete picture now.  I'll have to see what the number of Frames per Second are that the FZ30 can do.  Yes it does have auto focus and I often hold the shutter release down as a pre focus technique.  Good answer thank you.


You're welcome, my friend.  :)

HERE is a review page from dpReview posting test results of Continuous AF speeds with a FZ-50. A bit slower than the 30, but higher quality resulting images.

Also keep in mind that the FZ's have to pause between bursts, or suffer additional slowdown of fps, whereas the larger dSLR's have much larger buffers and higher shutter speeds (1/8000th). Until the buffer is full and needs to dump to the storage card, the 7D continuously fires at 8fps -- while continuously adjusting the focus!!

My 50D does 5fps whereas the new Canon 7D does 8fps. HERE is a video of a test between the 7D and a Nikon D700 -- both with 70-200mm lenses. The Canon lens is an L series with IS and the quiet motor and one of the best lenses in the Canon line. The car in the video is coming straight at the camera at 60mph and demonstrates how far this technology has come!

AI Servo mode on the Canon stands for Artificial Intelligence -- and Servo is a system where a mechanical movement predicts what the next movement should be based on feedback from the preceding movement. That's the kinda thing we used to see in Star Wars episodes, and now we find it in our digital cameras.  :)

BTW, I like the terminology of Continuous Shooting Mode used by Nikon and Panasonic vs. AI Servo by Canon . . .
« Last Edit: November 08, 2009, 05:10:38 AM by Bob Buchanan »
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seilerbird

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #71 on: November 08, 2009, 08:36:35 AM »
50d does 6.5 fps
Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #72 on: December 01, 2009, 04:43:51 PM »
Well, I finally did it.  I ordered the Canon Rebel XSi after much reading and pondering which camera to get.  I decided that I didn't need the video capabilities of the Canon T1i, Nikon D5000 or D90.  I didn't want to spend $1,000 or more either, and I wanted to get a longer zoom lens to go with the short zoom.  Canon extended the $200 instant rebate on the purchase of the camera and 55-250mm zoom lens until January, and I ordered them from Amazon today.  Total for the XSi with the 18-55mm lens and the 55-250mm lens ended up being $640 with free shipping and no tax.  I had gotten $125 in gift cards for my birthday, which I applied to the purchase, bringing my total out-of-pocket for the camera and 2 lenses down to $515.  Now I can't wait to get the camera and start learning to make good pictures.  Thanks to everyone who shared their input and advice.

Dan
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Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #73 on: December 01, 2009, 05:33:12 PM »
Congratulations Dan! Looking forward to seeing some of your photos taken with the XSi. Although I have a very long way to go, I'm becoming more comfortable with my XSi every time I use it.
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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #74 on: December 01, 2009, 05:46:40 PM »
Thanks Tom.  I've looked at the photos you've posted and I can already see you're getting the hang of it.  I hope mine will turn out as good as yours have.
Dan
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1998 Allegro Class A

Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #75 on: December 01, 2009, 05:59:08 PM »
I'm a slow learner Dan, at least when it comes to photography, but many of the tips posted by the good photographers here eventually sink in.

One caveat - you'll soon be looking for your next lens  :o  I've already experienced so many situations where I feel I need a "longer" zoom.
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seilerbird

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #76 on: December 01, 2009, 06:10:20 PM »
I'm a slow learner Dan, at least when it comes to photography, but many of the tips posted by the good photographers here eventually sink in.

One caveat - you'll soon be looking for your next lens  :o  I've already experienced so many situations where I feel I need a "longer" zoom.
The whole problem is that if you get a 2000 mm lens it still won't be quite long enough. One of Murphy's Laws I think. You can never be too rich, too good looking or have a long enough zoom.
Tom

On the road living in the National Parks in a 27' 1985 Tiffin Allegro

My photos are at: http://picasaweb.google.com/seilerbird

Leaving 5-1-2010 for my trip - here is the trip route: http://maps.google.com/maps/ms?hl=en&ie=UTF8&msa=0&msid=101303567043899967803.00047ba4332df200e24bb&z=4

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #77 on: December 01, 2009, 06:19:43 PM »
Understood Tom.
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Jim Dick

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #78 on: December 02, 2009, 08:18:44 AM »
The whole problem is that if you get a 2000 mm lens it still won't be quite long enough. One of Murphy's Laws I think. You can never be too rich, too good looking or have a long enough zoom.


Tom,

How true! I have the 100-400 with 2X extender and it still doesn't come close to what I'd really like!:-)
Jim

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #79 on: December 02, 2009, 04:54:41 PM »
It's too late Tom.  I've already been looking for my next lens, and I havn't even gotten the camera and 2 lenses yet.  But like Tom Seiler said--you can never get enough zoom.  But, I think the next thing I'll be looking at is a low light prime lens so the bigger zoom will have to wait--at least for now. ;D

Dan
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Tom

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #80 on: December 02, 2009, 05:05:59 PM »
Dan,

My next purchase for the XSi will be an external flash.
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Dan Walters

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Re: Shoping for a new Digital Camera
« Reply #81 on: December 02, 2009, 05:17:42 PM »
That's on my list too. ;D ;D
Dan
Southeast Texas
1998 Allegro Class A