Topic: Shoping for a new Digital Camera (Read 2512 times)

Bob Buchanan · « **Reply #30 on:** November 03, 2009, 03:45:36 PM »

Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2009, 01:56:23 PM

The FZ35 that Jerry and I posted links to will satisfy the requirement for light weight, and it allows you to control many of the parameters. The biggest downside of a "compact camera" vs DSLR is the inability to change lenses. But, the superzoom on the FZ35sure goes a long way to make up for it. I'm still in my 90 day return window, and wish I could get my hands on the FZ35 for 90 days.

The terminology can be confusing as well, Tom. SLR described the single lens camera versus the TLR (twin lens camera) -- such as the very popular Rollieflex or the MamiyaFlex (mentioned by Howard previously here) medium format film cameras. One lens was used for viewing whereas the other was used to expose the film. The twin lenses came in pairs as part of a single unit -- and were interchangeable (tele vs. wide angle and so forth). My first medium format camera was the MamiyaFlex.

The SLR allowed viewing through the shooting lens via the reflex mirror, prism system. Non-SLR's had separate viewing - tho not with a second lens of the same type as the shooting lens -- so the quality of viewing was much less. When the digital's came out, most were of that type as well - or with a LCD display of what the shooting lens was seeing. Nikon was probably one of the first to modify an SLR to become a dSLR, but others quickly followed.

Anyway -- my point here is that, to me, SLR and dSLR only describes the type of lens/viewing system that camera uses. My first digital was an Olympus 2500L. It was a "fixed lens" dSLR vs. a interchangeable lens dSLR. I doubt there are any fixed lens dSLR's anymore, but you see my point. My mother bought a Kodak box camera in 1923 that used 620 film. That "was" a point and shoot camera. You picked up, pointed it at the subject, and pushed the deal that activated the spring that opened the metal thingy that covered the lens.

What appears to have happened tho, terminology wise, is that a dSLR now seems to imply interchangeable lenses plus tons of other stuff that non-dSLR's do not have. And all other cameras are P/S's. And I find that "very" misleading. As Jerry points out, the gap between the features of a camera with a SLR viewing system vs. one that does not have such a TTL real time viewing, is getting smaller and smaller.

In addition to interchangeable lenses, and method of viewing -- the other biggy is the size of the sensor between the two. If a non-SLR and an SLR both have 10mp resolution - the dSLR's will be larger. So each pixel can store more "light" data and make the RAW a better digital negative to work with. Other items to look at are the speed of AF and other such items that Howard mentions. The side by sides are great for that. Flash sync speed and fastest shutter speed also come to mind. For example, I believe your XSi is 1/4000 sec vs. the FZ-35 is 1/2000. My 50D is 1/8000. BTW, each only represents one f-stop over the others.

Sorry if I've rambled -- but wanted to make the point of how misleading the current terminology can be. And it is too bad that it has categorized digital's into point and shoot vs. dSLR's . . . IMO!

JerArdra · « **Reply #31 on:** November 03, 2009, 03:47:03 PM »

Tom,

I went to a camera store and used an FZ35. I took my own battery and SD card. It worked nice. The photos were great and the only downside, for me, was the electric control switch for the zoom lens. It zooms via an electric motor. On my Panasonic FZ30 as well as the FZ20s and FZ50s you are able to manually turn a ring on the lens barrel to zoom just like you do on a DSLR. I prefer the ring to zoom. But in defense of the FZ35 camera the zoom switch has 2-speeds. Push it all the way left or right and the zoom moves really fast but push it half way left or right and it moves much slower. This slower zoom speed is nice for framing a telephoto picture so the subject fills the entire picture frame. I was a bit uneasy using the electric zoom at first but yes I could get used to it okay.

JerryF

Tom · « **Reply #32 on:** November 03, 2009, 03:52:31 PM »

Dan,

I too have missed shots, but I can't detect any difference in turn-on speed between my Panasonic FZ7 and my Canon XSi. As for the power zoom, I was just playing with it before posting this message, and I doubt I'd be able to manually zoom the XSi much faster; Maybe when I'm more accomplished with it. This might be different with the FZ35's 18X zoom (greater distance to rotate/travel?) So far, I've managed to miss shots with the XSi due to my slow manual zoom; I was trying to snap some flying geese last evening, but missed them on several tries. I also missed some pics of our grandkids with the XSi last week.

It's possible that some of the comments you're reading here relate to earlier digital/point-and-shoot cameras. OTOH there might be some comparative info at the dpreview.com site, either in the reviews or in user feedback.

I'm slowly resigning myself to the idea that, if I stick with what I have, I'll use the Panasonic 'compact camera' for those spur-of-the-moment pictures, and use the Canon DSLR if/when I have the time to worry about composing the shot and figuring out which settings I need.

Tom · « **Reply #33 on:** November 03, 2009, 03:54:25 PM »

Thanks for that report Jerry. My FZ7 doesn't have a manual zoom, so I've become quite used to the electric zoom.

Dan Walters · « **Reply #34 on:** November 03, 2009, 04:24:21 PM »

Tom,

Thanks again. Yours and others input is most valuable. I'm sure I would miss some shots with a DSLR as well. As others have said here, it's probably more a function of how good the photographer is rather than how good the camera is.

By the way, have you seen the discount offer that began on November 1 on the Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens combined with the purchase of a Canon 55-250mm IS zoom lens from Amazon and other online sellers? Amazon has that combination for $643 with free shipping after a $200 discount at checkout. It seems to be a Canon instant rebate because I saw the same $200 savings from several online sellers. There is also a $100 discount on the Rebel XS with a non-stabilized zoom lens. That sounded like a pretty good deal to me and not a whole lot more than the nonchargeable single lens digital superzoom cameras like the FZ38 or the Canon Powershot SX20.

Dan

Tom · « **Reply #35 on:** November 03, 2009, 04:30:48 PM »

Hi Bob, understand the terminology confusion. In recent messages, I've corrected my terminology for non-DSLR cameras such as the FZ-7, FZ-30 & FZ-35 to be "compact cameras". I'd forgotten this term untils I started reading various manufacturer and support sites.

Maybe equally confusing is the fact that the FZ-7, FZ-30 and our vest pocket point-and-shoot FX-9 all use the same engine and have many overlapping features and capabilities.

FWIW when we were supplying chips to most (all?) of the camera manufacturers, we referred to the entire business segment as "DSC" (digital still camera). Electronically, once the sensor is defined, image capture and signal processing is essentially the same, irrespective of what lenses, mirrors, prisms, etc the camera manufacturer hangs in front of it. Of course, this technology has changed quite a bit over the last 10 years, and this might no longer be true.

Tom · « **Reply #36 on:** November 03, 2009, 04:49:49 PM »

Dan,

That does sound like a good deal for the XSi kit, but I need to go find my Costco receipt. I recall there was a $100 instant rebate from Canon (at checkout), but they may have decided to up that to $200. I'll be in a Costco store later this week, and I'll check to see if they now have the same $200 discount that Amazon is offering. (It doesn't show up online.)

There were a few additional goodies thrown in with the Costco deal, including the Rebel bag and the DVD tutorial (IIRC that costs $49.95). This is quite normal with Costco purchases - they often get the manufacturer or supplier to provide additional goodies at no cost to the consumer. Cell phones are another example, where activation fees are waived, as are early service cancelation fees, and they throw in additional chargers. Of course, there's also the Costco 90 days return privileges on all electronics, and their 2-year warranty.

Tom · « **Reply #37 on:** November 04, 2009, 04:54:57 AM »

Quote from: Dan Walters

... have you seen the discount offer that began on November 1 on the Canon XSi with the 18-55mm IS kit lens combined with the purchase of a Canon 55-250mm IS zoom lens ... Amazon has that combination for $643 with free shipping after a $200 discount at checkout.

Dan, do you have a link to that offer? I tried finding it on Amazon, but they seem to offer a confusing mixture of kits that include the XSi. Here's one XSi kit, but the price is $829.95 after the $200 rebate. If I select the XSi with 18-55mm lens and add the 55-250mm lens separately, the price is $828.66 without the other stuff in the kit.

I just checked my Costco invoice and it shows $779.99 after a $150 rebate at checkout (I was mistaken about the rebate being only $100). I'm still curious if Costco now has the $200 rebate.

Maybe there's a difference in lenses and I'm not comparing apples with apples (?)

Hfx_Cdn · « **Reply #38 on:** November 04, 2009, 06:23:25 AM »

Tom, FWIW I couldn't find it either

Jim Dick · « **Reply #39 on:** November 04, 2009, 08:13:11 AM »

Dan,

There are many point and shoot cameras that will take excellent pictures. I own a Nikon 990 that has a 3 megapixel resolution. It has taken many great photos. I also have the Canon Digital Rebel and the 40D. The biggest difference of DSLR's and P&S cameras is the lack of delay with the DSLR. You can miss a lot of action shots using the P&S because the shutter delay is too long.

Dan Walters · « **Reply #40 on:** November 04, 2009, 10:11:17 AM »

Tom,

I don't think Amazon has that kit advertised together, and they don't show the real discounted price until you get to the checkout. If you put the Canon XSi camera with the 18-55mm kit lens, the Canon 55-250mm IS zoom lens and the Tiffen UV protection filter together in your shopping cart, the $200 instant rebate will apply upon checkout and the final number comes to $643 and change. I went all the way through checkout so I could see the final price but didn't finalize the order when it got to the "pay now" part. I had seen this on a camera forum when I was researching the Canon and Nikon cameras. I'm not very good at adding links, but I will try. This link should take you to the kit. Scroll down and look at the "items frequently bought together" and add all three to the shopping cart. The discount will apply at checkout. Hope that link works.

Jim, thanks for that perspective. I think that's one of the reasons I'm still considering a DSLR instead of a better point and shoot camera. Sometimes my grandkids move faster than the shutter on my Sony and I miss the shot.

Dan

Tom · « **Reply #41 on:** November 04, 2009, 10:35:10 AM »

Thanks Dan. I followed that link for the separate pieces "bought together" last night, put them in my basket, but didn't proceed to checkout. That probably explains why I didn't see the $200 rebate. Did you buy it yet?

Dan Walters · « **Reply #42 on:** November 04, 2009, 10:39:11 AM »

Tom,

No, not yet. I see the instant rebate is good until 11/21/09. My birthday is coming up on 11/19/09, so I'm trying to drop some hints at what I want for my birthday. Still can't decide which camera, though. Need to make up my mind soon. Thanks.

Dan

Tom · « **Reply #43 on:** November 04, 2009, 10:41:00 AM »

Dan,

I'm waiting for you to buy it at that price, so I can return mine to Costco and buy at the lower price. So be sure to buy it soon enough before the 11/21 deadline

seilerbird · « **Reply #44 on:** November 04, 2009, 12:37:45 PM »

I do believe the only way you get the instant rebate is if you are a registered Canon owner.

Pierat · « **Reply #45 on:** November 04, 2009, 12:48:24 PM »

Apparently the Amazon offer expired Nov. 2: http://www.techbargains.com/product/canon_xsi

Tom · « **Reply #46 on:** November 04, 2009, 01:03:22 PM »

Back to the drawing board Dan

Dan Walters · « **Reply #47 on:** November 04, 2009, 03:33:13 PM »

Well, I don't know what that's about, but the instant rebate is from Canon and is available through any Canon authorized dealer from November 1 to November 21, 2009 as shown here on Canon's web site. When I checked Amazon this morning, the discount still showed up in checkout and the instant rebate message is still showing up on Amazon's site here. So maybe I'm not too late after all.

Dan

Jim Dick · « **Reply #48 on:** November 04, 2009, 11:54:07 PM »

>>Sometimes my grandkids move faster than the shutter on my Sony and I miss the shot.<<

Dan,

Grandkids will always challenge the abilities of a point and shoot camera!

Attached are two photos I took at a Blue Angels air show at Kennedy Space Center last year. I was using the Canon 40D with the Canon 100-400 L series IM lens. Couldn't do that with a P&S!

Tom · « **Reply #49 on:** November 05, 2009, 01:59:44 AM »

Hi Jim. Those are the kind of photos I can only hope to be able to shoot one day. Care to tell us something about camera settings? How critical would the L series lens be in this application?

Photos I took of the Blue Angels over San Francisco Bay (see this message) sure look anemic after seeing yours. Mine were taken using a Sony P&S with 10X lens and image stabilizer. As you correctly say, a P&S can't take photos like the ones you shared with us.

cva61 · « **Reply #50 on:** November 05, 2009, 04:35:10 AM »

Tom

The telephoto lens in Jim's photo do really tell a wonderful story about a specific airplane.

BUT the ones you took also tell a story. You have an very intresting photo of the Golden Gate bridge with fog and the Angles. That faming tells a very different story. Nice photo of the bridge, the fog and the Angles adds to the story.

I shoot with both a point and shoot and a DLSR. Each has its place. The advantage to the DLSR is the ability to change lenses and get the photo Jim took of the airplanes. Change his lens and he would be able to capture the photo you took. Advantage of the point and shoot is it fits neatly in your pocket and can be carried very easily. Both have their place.

Its the photographer that decides what to put in to the frame and which type of cameras to use.

tkhattabaugh · « **Reply #51 on:** November 05, 2009, 07:01:25 AM »

I highly recommend the Nikon D90 with an 18-105mm lens. This camera setup will give amateurs to semi-pros excellent photos in a wide array of settings. Buy a Blue Crane training DVD (www.bluecranedigital.com) and in no time you'll be taking pictures like the pros!

Jim Dick · « **Reply #52 on:** November 05, 2009, 07:58:40 AM »

Tom

Quote from: Tom on November 05, 2009, 01:59:44 AM

Hi Jim. Those are the kind of photos I can only hope to be able to shoot one day. Care to tell us something about camera settings? How critical would the L series lens be in this application?

Photos I took of the Blue Angels over San Francisco Bay (see this message) sure look anemic after seeing yours. Mine were taken using a Sony P&S with 10X lens and image stabilizer. As you correctly say, a P&S can't take photos like the ones you shared with us.

,

Tom,

An L-series lens would not be necessary for shots like that. A good IS system is much more important. As you know I was using the 100-400 zoom on the Canon 40D. I used the sports setting which provides continuous focusing. Then I tried to pick up the plane as it came close and panned, in this case, from right to left while holding the shutter release open. That provided several quick shots of which I got one good one. :-) The wonderful thing about digital is you can throw away all the bad shots and it doesn't cost anything.

As with any photo shoot like this, one only gets to see what's happening through the view finder. I always try to limit my shooting time so I can really enjoy whatever show is being performed. :-)

It's too bad the Angels weren't at a lower altitude for that shot with the bridge in the foreground. That fog really adds to the shot.

Jim Dick · « **Reply #53 on:** November 05, 2009, 08:10:06 AM »

Quote from: cva61 on November 05, 2009, 04:35:10 AM

Its the photographer that decides what to put in to the frame and which type of cameras to use.

You are absolutely correct! I heard a story one time about a pro with a P&S followed another photographer with an SLR. His photos were as interesting and, in some cases, much better than the guy with the SLR. Composition is a key ingredient for an outstanding shot.

Anyone that would like to see some other shots can go to http://photo.net/photos/jimdick. I have a few posted and need to post more.I would be interested in anyone's opinion on the photos.

cva61 · « **Reply #54 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:05:26 AM »

Jim
I shoot with a Nikon D70. I have several lenses including my favorite for outside action, wildlife etc.... Its the 70-200 2.8 VR. Its fast for sports action and very good for wildlife.

The P&S I use is an Olympic. I Carry it all the time. In many places you get hard looks or even a request to not shoot. I like to shoot my grand kids at the public pool. No problem with the P&S but the staff balks when I bring out the DSLR.

As to learning more about photography. Check out the local Junior Collage in your area. Mine offers credit classes as well as Contuning Ed classes. I am currently enrolled in a Creative Photography class (have taken it several times). By the way they offer a discount to those of us who live in the county and are over 55.

Roy

Jim Dick · « **Reply #55 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:26:16 AM »

Roy,

I have a Nikon 990 which I have used extensively. I also have the Canon Digital Rebel and 40D. I use the Canon L-series 100-400 IS for most of my long shots. I own a less expensive 70-200 Canon lens but it is not that great. Also have the kit lenses that came with both Canons.

I wish I had time for some classes.

I might look into it this winter but I have a lot of irons in the fire that take up much of my time. I did apply for the New York School of Photography back in the '60's. They turned me down!

Howard Rawley · « **Reply #56 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:43:09 AM »

Quote from: Tom on November 03, 2009, 03:52:31 PM

I'm slowly resigning myself to the idea that, if I stick with what I have, I'll use the Panasonic 'compact camera' for those spur-of-the-moment pictures, and use the Canon DSLR if/when I have the time to worry about composing the shot and figuring out which settings I need.

Tom,

After getting my Nikon D50 that is much the way I operated with the old Kodak digital ... kept it out in the mh for those quick spur of the moment shots. And at the airshows carried the Kodak as backup and also it's limited video capability.

Howard

Tom · « **Reply #57 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:44:06 AM »

This guy got some photos of the Blue Angels I'd have liked to get that day, both over and under the Golden Gate:

http://home.comcast.net/~bzee1a/

Scroll down to see the Angels. He didn't get fog in the scene though

Dan Walters · « **Reply #58 on:** November 05, 2009, 09:45:19 AM »

Jim,

Those are great shots. Boy, you've got a lot of cameras. I don't think I would ever need that kind of camera power, but I would like one good all around camera to use that is better than the little point and shoot models to take family and vacation type shots that look good. Which of all of those cameras that you own would you think would fit that bill for me? Thanks.

Dan

Tom · « **Reply #59 on:** November 05, 2009, 11:27:13 AM »

Methinks that, if our local retired guys club doesn't put on some photography classes, I'll look around for one.

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Author Topic: Shoping for a new Digital Camera (Read 2512 times)