joint ownership Brits coming to US

[The Mehlmanns]

Hi there all,
probably asked before but I could not locate anything.

Situation: Three senior British couples coming to US want to purchase an RV to tour the States in several shortish trips of a few months each. Not all at the same time. Probably sell at the end 12 months. We have seen what we want.

Question: Is it possible/sensible to register the RV to three owners?

In the US does insurance normally cover the Van or the driver? i.e would three separate drivers all full clean licenses and around the 65 year mark be covered on the same insurance?

Any thoughts or recommendations re complications on the above as van would start in Calilfornia and end up in Tennessee?

A final question: without purchasing a car and all that goes with it, is there any other form of auxilliary transport that forumites would recommend which requires the minimum of formalities.

Thanks for your input and apologies again if this has been asked before.

Steve

[Tom]

Hi Steve and welcome from a Taff now exiled in California.

Is it possible/sensible to register the RV to three owners?

Yes, but all 6 people would need to sign the "title" document, fondly referred to as the "pink slip", or our equivalent of the old vehicle log book in the UK. (Don't know what it's called by DVLC today.) I suspect that all 6 might need to be present at the time of registration at a DMV office to sign. Since it sounds like you might be registering in California, you might want to check out the CA DMV web site. Rules vary by state.

An alternative might be to set up an LLC through an agent here, and have the RV bought through the LLC. The LLC would be jointly owned by the 3 couples, and the RV would be owned by the LLC.

In the US does insurance normally cover the Van or the driver? i.e would three separate drivers all full clean licenses and around the 65 year mark be covered on the same insurance?

That might be a question for individual insurance companies or agents. Typically, the vehicle is insured, and one or more "regular drivers" are listed. However, in the case of our insurance company, they only list people in the same household.

Any thoughts or recommendations re complications on the above as van would start in Calilfornia and end up in Tennessee?

Assuming you're buying as individuals (not an LLC), and that you're buying in California, you'll pay sales tax. Not as painful as VAT, but still painful.

without purchasing a car and all that goes with it, is there any other form of auxilliary transport that forumites would recommend which requires the minimum of formalities.

A couple of pushbikes that could hang on a bike carrier. Some folks have small electric scooters, but they're not really suitable for driving into the nearest town. Another option would be to rent a car if you're staying in one place for a while.
[edit]Fixed quote.[/edit]

[RV Roamer]

Hi Steve and welcome to RV Forum.

US vehicle liability insurance covers the vehicle regardless of who is driving, but usually requires the identification of all regular drivers as well. That's an insurance company requirement so they can classify risks and is not a legal requirement.

Putting the title and registration is all three names might complicate the paperwork somewhat, especially if two of the owners were not readily available to supply documentation. The procedure is unique to each state, so to some extent the requirements will vary depending on where you title and register the vehicle. Since you aren't already a resident of any US state, you have some flexibility in that. However, you need to get the title and registration to drive it anywhere. If you start in California, that's a drawback because California is rather onerous in terms of procedures and very high cost of fees and taxes on vehicles.

One possibility is that the three couples might establish a Limited Liability Company (LLC) in a state such as Montana or South Dakota and have the company purchase the RV. Quite a few US citizens do that as well. I'm not sure if there are procedural problems with foreign ownership of a company, but there are firms in those states that specialize in that sort of thing and could answer that question quickly.

[The Mehlmanns]

Hi guys,

thanks for your friendly welcome and advice. All points noted, it looks like the insurance is no real problem.

Re the ownership, we are all friends from our local village in Spain, so what are the drawbacks about simply registering in one name, ie mine and me giving the other two permission in the form of a letter to drive it. I appreciate that I would be the responsible person and therfore liable for any offences that might be committed, but we are all pretty sensible, so a fair risk, I reckon.

The LLC route seems from what I have read a fairly expensive option and as you will see from below probably a large cost for a short time.

At present our plans are that we shall each spend a few months on the road before passing to the next in line and probably sell after the last lot have 'done their bit' as it were. So no long term committment, at this stage, unless we all find it so enjoyable that we continue with more of the same until we either get bored or run out of money!

So far as State purchase tax is concerned as it will divided by all three it becomes less of a chore, even if it is California rates.

Oh by the way, is there a complusory road test, like the MOT or do they simply do a smog test? We are looking at something about 10 years old. If there is, have you any views on how thorough it might be or would we still be sensible to get an indepedant inspection prior to purchase.

We are all pretty savvy, I am actually a yacht surveyor, so have a fair idea of what to look for but, as it is three of us again splitting costs, an inspection would put everyone's mind at rest that we are not buying a wreck, at a reasonable cost and as I shall be the first to go and will be doing the purchase it will be my c**k on the block if I get it wrong!

Hey ho life is fun, looking forward to more responses.

Thanks in advance.

Steve

[Lou Schneider]

The first couple could simply purchase the motorhome, use it for several months and then sell it to the next couple.  The sale could take place in any state - it's perfectly fine to buy a vehicle in CA and sell it in Texas, for example.  The legal liability of the previous couple ends when the title is transfered.  The new couple gets a clean title to pass on to the next owner,  and if the transaction takes place in a new state, new license plates for the vehicle.

[Jeff]

In the aviation business joint ownership/partnerships/fractional ownerships are covered with insurance by naming each couple as Named Insureds, not as authorized drivers. The coverage offered as named insureds is more encompassing than being authorized to drive the vehicle.

IIRC basically being an authorized driver means the insurance is in effect in case of an accident, not who will be covered by the policy.

[Tom]

We have no equivalent to the MOT, but smog is required in various states for gas (petrol) powered vehicles. Diesel vehicles will require smog in California going forward. It's customary (maybe law or maybe not) in CA for the seller to have the vehicle smog tested. The smog certificate will be required when you try to register the vehicle at a CA DMV office.

The downside of not having an MOT is caveat emptor as far as non-smog stuff is concerned.

[Tom]

The first couple could simply purchase the motorhome, use it for several months and then sell it to the next couple.

The downside of that is that sales tax might need to be paid at the time of each sale, depending on the state. As you know Lou, in CA the first couple could sell the RV to the second couple for $1, so the sales tax would be zip.

[The Mehlmanns]

Thanks guys for all the responses. Most helpful.

A couple of quickies:
What other cost as well as sales tax are we going to be involved with?
i.e. if we need to do a smog test what does that cost. I appreciate any repairs would be in addition.
What is the cost of the  road fund licence equivalent.
What is the cost of registration per se.
Anything else you can think of would be great.
I would also allow for new tyres, hoses and belts and probably a full engine service but no doubt have missed something vital!

Re ownership I take the point about selling for $1 but think we will probably go the route of me as the prime owner and the others borrowing it from me.

I would get them as named drivers on the insurance as this seems to make more sense.

Again thanks and maybe see you all in the Spring!

[Tom]

Will you be buying from a dealer or from a private party? I ask because if from a dealer, they'll take care of the smog at their expense. Smog tests on cars cost around $50, but vary. It's been many years since we had a gas (petrol) coach, but I don't recall paying more for it to be smogged than the cars.

Sales tax in California varies between counties, but figure on approx 8-9% of purchase price.

If the RV is already registered, you may have a number of months remaining, and merely need to pay the title transfer fee. There are online calculators for registration and other fees on the CA DMV site here:

https://mv.dmv.ca.gov/FeeCalculatorWeb/index.jsp

Be prepared for a bit of a shock, since California doubled the registration fees recently.

More information on vehicle registration in CA here:

http://www.dmv.ca.gov/vr/vr.htm

The cost of new tyres will vary by size and brand of course, but try searching on "tire" or "tires" to see what some folks have reported paying. Folks here don't know how to spell "tyre"  
[edit]Fixed typo.[/edit]

[RV Roamer]

Taxes,  title and registration fees, etc. are all determined on a state basis and the differences can be huge. However, the state of California is expensive on all of those things, so I would suggest buying somewhere else, or at least taking delivery outside of California.

Sales tax can vary from zero to around 8% of the purchase price. License fees vary from a low of around $40 to a high of thousands (some states assess an annual tax via the registration fee, charging a percentage of the market value of the vehicle).

Few states have requirement for a smog test, but California is one that does.

Here in Florida, the sales tax is 6%(one time, at purchase)  but the annual license fee for a large motorhome is only around $60. The title for a new vehicle would be around $200, last I checked and there are no other fees or taxes on vehicles.  I'll let others contribute numbers for states with which they are familiar.

I do not believe the US has a "road fund license" equivalent. Taxes of fuel provide funding for the national highway system, so you "pay at the pump", so to speak.

[Tom]

For clarification, unless my memory is failing me, our equivalent of the "road fund license" is the annual vehicle registration. Instead of what we used to call "the tax disk" in the windshield, we have self-adhesive "tags" or decals attached to the rear license plate (aka number plate) to prove the fees have been paid.

Gary makes a good point about the potential savings of buying or taking delivery outside of California. In the simplest case, you could buy in northern California and take delivery across the state line in Nevada. Or buy in southern California and take delivery in Arizona. If buying from a dealer, they'll arrange for the vehicle to be delivered in the other state, but it will cost you an additional $350-$500, depending on distance and time. (The cost is usually just the driver cost, plus they're using your fuel in the tank.) The savings in sales tax would be far more than that. Of course, you have to figure out how to get yourselves to the point of delivery.

[Tom]

Just realized something that hasn't been clearly stated in our replies, and which might help remove (or add) some confusion. I'll a little rusty on the UK stuff - haven't lived there for 30 years, so feel free to correct my statements below. Unlike the UK, in the US, registrations and licenses are handled separately by each state and, since the details may vary, I'll cover only California.

In California:
Vehicle registration happens when a vehicle is purchased new, or when ownership is transferred to another party. At that time, the owner (or new owner) receives a certificate of ownership aka the title document, affectionately called the pink slip. In the case of a vehicle financed through, say, a bank, the pink slip is held by the bank until the loan has been paid off.

The owner also receives a registration card (usually a piece of paper), confirming the registration fees have been paid, along with one or two self-adhesive tags that are attached to the rear license plate. One tag would show the year and the other the month of expiration. If bought through a dealer, the dealer would issue a temporary registration card (piece of paper) that is attached to the inside of the windshield by Scotch tape, pending receipt of the official paperwork form DMV. The registration is renewed annually, and results in a new registration card and a new tag showing the year of expiration.

Renewals can be done online, provided smog test results are on file at the DMV. Smog is not required on new vehicles, but is required every two years after year 5.

In the UK:
Registration occurs when a vehicle is purchased new or transfers ownership, but is not renewed annually. What happens annually is the purchase of a road fund license aka payment of a road tax. New registration results in the owner receiving a "log book", which nowadays is IIRC a piece of paper, and is the title document. The owner also receives a "tax disc", which is (or used to be) a circular piece of paper attached to the inside of the windshield, usually in a special-purpose "tax disc holder". When the license (aka road tax) is renewed, a new tax disc is issued.

I either don't recall or never knew what happens in the case of a vehicle being financed by a bank. My cars were usually old bangers that no bank manager or loan officer in their right mind would finance.

I've read somewhere that "road fund license" and "road tax" are no longer the correct terms, but us old folks don't re-calibrate easily.

Phew! Turned out to be longer than I expected; Hope nobody fell asleep or became more confused 

[jaxngroomer]

Just buy it in Oregon....no sales tax....but not sure how you register it if you don't live there? Most states want an address. That is why an LLC would be a good thing. Might cost less in the long run.

[Carl L]

i.e. if we need to do a smog test what does that cost. I appreciate any repairs would be in addition.

From the California DMV website:
When a car is sold, who is responsible for the inspection?

The seller is required to provide the buyer with a valid smog inspection certification at the time of the sale or transfer. Smog certifications are good for 90 days from the date of issuance.

The inspection is not required on a transfer if a biennial smog certification was submitted to DMV within 90 days prior to the vehicle transfer date (a vehicle inspection report may be required for proof of certification).

Note: Smog certifications are not required for transfers that occur for any motor vehicle that is four or less model years old. (Determine the oldest-qualifying year model by subtracting three from the current year.) A smog transfer fee will be collected from the new owner.

In short, the seller must furnish you a valid smog cert.  In order to get that, the vehicle had to pass a smog test.   If repairs were required, he would have to have made them and then resubmit the vehicle for retest.   The only exceptions are new vehicles as explained  and vehicles of the 1975 model year or older, and in RVs, trailers.

Make absolutely sure the seller, dealer or not, furnishes you a valid smog cert before you hand him the money.   One of our members went thru the smog tortures when a dealer finessed him out of a smog cert.

[The Mehlmanns]

Hey that's really great many thanks.

We have looked at buying out of state but understand the residence issue can be a problem particularly in Oregon where from reading this forum it is suggested you need to furnish utility bills to prove you live there.

I don't know about Nevada so will check it out as this is looks nearer to SF than Arizona we still need an address there so maybe the dealer can help with a mail box. Also I thought I read that there are time impositions with registering out of state then returning to explore?i

An aside: (we Europeans laughed at GW's lack of European geography but when it comes down to it we are not that much better with US geography!!)

Great info about the other taxes. I will need to do my homework and if we buy in Nevada guess that a smog test is not required.

I found some tyre prices but was a little confused as they were all labelled as 'trailer' tyres. Am I being silly or does an RV count as a trailer?

Thanks again

Steve
 

[RV Roamer]

A motorhome is not a trailer. Trailer tires cannot be used on the front (steering) wheels.

You can't do much about tires until you know what size is on the rig you ultimately purchase. Older or smaller coaches may have 16" tires, while later or larger ones will likely be 19.5" or 22.5". 

And with any luck the one you buy won't need tires...

[Tom]

Also I thought I read that there are time impositions with registering out of state then returning to explore?

That is really only an issue for someone registering an RV in California; The requirement is (or was) to take delivery out of state and keep the RV out of state for 91 consecutive days in the first 6 months of ownership. So, for example, you could buy and register in California, take delivery in Nevada, come back to California the next day, but be sure to leave in time to have 91 consecutive days remaining in the first 6 months. One caveat - the 91 days has changed several times (it went to a year at one point), but I can't recall what it is today.

Edit: Effective Oct 1, 2008, it's back to a year. See this page on the CA Board Of Equalization web site.

In practice, I can only see this affecting CA residents. The state would audit us, and we'd need to prove the 91 days (or 1 year) by, for example, keeping campground and fuel receipts. If you're not resident here, I don't know how they'd find you. In any event, you'd have probably gone back to the UK before an audit occurred.

(we Europeans laughed at GW's lack of European geography but when it comes down to it we are not that much better with US geography!!)

We've lived 30+ years in not-so-sunny South Wales and 30 years in California. I get quite a kick out of Brits coming here and saying the're going to "tour the US in x weeks". In our 25+ years of boating and RVing on this side of the Atlantic, and many years of traveling for a living, we haven't scratched the surface. Heck, we haven't come close to seeing all of California.

... if we buy in Nevada guess that a smog test is not required.

Don't know about that, but their pass/fail criteria might be different. You can check it out at http://www.dmvnv.com/emission.htm . In any event, any smog certificate would be a requirement of where the RV is registered. As a hypothetical example, if you buy in NV and take delivery in CA, then register in CA, you'll need a smog certificate that was issued in CA.

Am I being silly or does an RV count as a trailer?

It's the other way around; A trailer is one type of RV and no, trailer tyres should not be used on a motorhome. Click the Resources button above and scroll down to the explanation of RV Types.

[Tom]

Be sure to check out the Visitors to the USA area of our forum library. You might find some useful articles there.

[The Mehlmanns]

'We've lived 30+ years in not-so-sunny South Wales and 30 years in California. I get quite a kick out of Brits coming here and saying the're going to "tour the US in x weeks". In our 25+ years of boating and RVing on this side of the Atlantic, and many years of traveling for a living, we haven't scratched the surface. Heck, we haven't come close to seeing all of California.
'

Again all most helpful and its good chatting to you all.

Re the above, sadly we are only going to be there for a 3 1/2 month stint, the others about the same, so will be lucky as you say to see much of the Western side. Still we can give it a go.

I too am a sailor so if you know anyone looking for crew in SF bay for a day, I will be there!!

Re tyres, I think I have the size for the RV we want but interestingly all the sites I visited said without exception, that I could find, 'Trailer tires'. I need to allow for a set so we can do our sums but it seem that for the vehlcle we are looking at they range from somewhere between 80 and 140US$. Quite a spread.

I have the price for the change of ownership etc in California and this works out at just over 1400$ all up on a base cost of 15000$, affordable on a shared cost basis. I also tried the Nevada site but my connection was slow and went offline. So I will try again.

Cheers for now.

Steve

[Tom]

I too am a sailor so if you know anyone looking for crew in SF bay for a day, I will be there!!

We're what is affectionately known by the true sailors on the forum as "stinkpot sailors"; My other half steadfastly refuses to step aboard a sailboat and, since she's at the helm 95% of the time, I just go along for the ride.

Drop us a note if/when you're in the area. We're approx 80 miles northeast of San Francisco. The old tub is moored at the rear of the house, with access to 1200 miles of waterways on the CA Delta, and a clear run down to SF Bay.

Try the Search button above looking for tires (not tyres), and you'll find a number of topics where folks have discussed what they paid. For budgeting purposes, you could also try these folks:

http://www.lesschwab.com/tires/motorhome.asp

[The Mehlmanns]

Drop us a note if/when you're in the area. We're approx 80 miles northeast of San Francisco. The old tub is moored at the rear of the house, with access to 1200 miles of waterways on the CA Delta, and a clear run down to SF Bay.

Well Tom, thats most kind of you. But be careful as we may just do that. Stinkpot, rags and sticks, no problem I do them all!! Mind you we might have to keep the SWMBO's apart as mine is of similar thinking to yours except she don't want to go near the water again having sailed with me for nearly 40 years she has had enough and reckons that it is her turn now and RVing suits her just fine. Mind you like you we have our 30 footer moored at the end of our garden on the River Guadiana.

We are looking at something in Sacramento which I am guessing is some where in the right direction although not on the coast of course.

I will certainly look up TIRES and thanks for the link.

Cheers


Cheers

[Tom]

We're almost equidistant from San Francisco and Sacramento, out in the sticks (aka in the boonies). There are a number of nearby campgrounds, and there's even a file of them in our forum library.

Sacramento, in addition to being the state capital, has a number of things to see, and is well worth a visit. An hour or so north of there is gold mining country, around the Auburn and Grass Valley areas. Another hour or so north of there is Reno which, being in Nevada, might be the place to take delivery of your motorhome. Reno is also known as "the biggest little city in the world". OK if you like casinos, but there are also some other attractions in the area. The favourite place for "out of state deliveries" is Boomtown, a casino and campground near the town of Verdi, approx 20 minutes west of Reno.

I understand the boys in Twickenham lost to the Aussies over the weekend. I get all the rugby games delayed by a day or two, so I have it set to record. It had been 55 or years since the boys in Cardiff beat the All Blacks, so expectations were high for Saturday's game at the Millennium Stadium. It's now 56+ years  

[Tom]

...on a base cost of 15000$...

Just noticed this in your prior message. Don't know if you have any ideas on makes/models and year of motorhome, but you may wish to take a look at the Nada Price Guides. Click on the Recreation Vehicles tab, pick some makes and browse the various years and models. Don't check (tick) any of the options, because many of them are included in the base price. You'll get some of idea of what you can get for your money.

Also be sure to look in the Checklists area of our forum library and grab one or more of the checklists before accepting and paying for the motorhome. Also put one of these in your budget.

[The Mehlmanns]

Hi Tom,

Yes Nada prices the RV we are interested in at around 10K the dealer is asking nearly 20K so we feel there could be room for negotiation! At least 1/3rd off I would say. He does need to make a pofit of course. What do you think would be fair.

Again the problem with out of state registry is having a mailing address. Any thoughts?

I like the idea of the toolkit and had planned on getting the odd screw driver and wrench. Maybe not quite so comprehensive as what you suggest but then if you need it you need and can be sure you wont have it.

See you in the spring.

Steve

[Tom]

What do you think would be fair.

How long is a piece of string? Without knowing make, model, year and seeing the condition and some of the RV's history, there's no way to answer your question. We used to talk about being able to negotiate maybe 26-30% off the price of a new coach, but that was because we collectively had some idea of what the dealer cost was, and possibly what the factory was prepared to kick in. When it comes to used RVs, there's no way of knowing how much the dealer has to work with. Some folks might make a low offer and see if & by how much the dealer responds.

Is this a reputable dealer? I ask because there are many wholesalers out there. When an older vehicle is traded (in part exchange) for a new or newer vehicle, a dealer will often unload it on a wholesaler; They (the dealer) either doesn't want to be bothered with the old vehicle, or feels it's something they can't sell.

A good example is our last motorhome. I knew there were some issues with it that I did not want to pass along to an unsuspecting buyer. I made it a condition of buying our current coach that the dealer took our old one "as is" and at no cost to the dealer. I had to charge them the obligatory $1 to make it a legal sale, but the bill of sale clearly stated all the issues I knew about with the vehicle.

The dealer didn't want to even see the old motorhome, and told me they'd dump it on a wholesaler. Since the wholesaler was closer to me, they had him drive to my house to pick it up. After seeing how he operated and how he talked, there was no doubt in my mind that this guy would try to sell this RV to some unsuspecting buyer, and wouldn't bat an eyelid. The DMV paperwork listed him as a "dealer".

Again the problem with out of state registry is having a mailing address. Any thoughts?

This is where the LLC would make sense. I don't know if just a PO box would even work. OTOH I know of several forum members who are not residents of CA or NV, and who bought a coach in CA , taking delivery in Boomtown. Maybe they can shed some light.

[The Mehlmanns]

Hi Tom,

I of course have no idea whether this company is reputable or not but it all looks OK to me. American Motorhomes are the people and they really do present the RV's beautifully having taken a lot of care to show them well. So we shall see. Of course it may not be available when we actually get there!

Having read all my postings, I have to laugh as anywhere we purchase will be 'out of state' because, of course, we are not residents of the US at all. It is just that we have, nearly, relatives in California who seem prepared to allow us to 'virtually' lodge with them. I guess most States don't mind so long as the owners can be contacted.

Anyway thanks for all your help. I suspect this thread has run it's course but no doubt I will be posting again when something else crops up.

Regards

Steve
p.s. are you on the computer all the time?

[Tom]

Here's something else to put into your budget, maybe an alternative to that expensive toolkit:

https://www.coach-net.com/

They're the nearest equivalent of the AA or RAC. There are other alternatives, such as:

http://www.goodsamclub.com/benefits-services/emergency-road-service.aspx

In the latter case, I don't recall if you also have to be a member of the Good San Club in order to be eligible for the emergency roadside assistance plan.

[Tom]

I'd never heard of them before reading your message. There's a dealer in Sacramento with a very similar name, but I have no knowledge of them. A few resources you might use to check out companies:

http://www.sacramento.bbb.org/

www.metrochamber.org

However, be aware that a listing or complaint at either site is neither an endorsement nor a condemnation of a company; Just use them as an additional tool in your search.

Good luck with your search, the purchase, and your adventure.

are you on the computer all the time?

No, that's just an illusion