seperate charger ??

i have been making my eyes sore reading the info on this sight..........currently studying the charging systems.......

i have an old 86 bounder...the charging system is light years in back of all the new innovations that i have been reading about on all of the new MH's..........

i have concluded that for our use, the old bounder will do us well.......

i may have missed this topic???................but i would like to know what would be the problem in plugging in a separate charger  to charge the bats with the genny......???.......i read that some say [with systems like i have] that they have to run the genny or the engine for hours at a time just to charge the house bats because of the slow charge that the converter puts out.....

i suppose that you would have to disconnect when charging???.......i guess two bats would solve that problem......

just thought i would ask.......i'm sure there has to be a problem with it somehow ??


i need to buy batteries and have decided on the 6 volts probably interstate or energizer.......they seem like the middle of the road....as far a cost and performance...

i have a good 12 volt dc now i guess that could be the spare......if the separate charger works........

input would be appreciated......this is a great sight......and i hope to answer a few questions some day.......but i don't think that we will ever get up to the big rigs..........we just don't seem to have enough gypsy blood in us ;D

thanks again
Don

digiacomo said:

i would like to know what would be the problem in plugging in a separate charger  to charge the bats with the genny . . .

Click to expand...

No problem with that, Don. I have had 5 RV's in the past 14 years and have disconnected the charger in the Converter on each -- and hooked up a Statpower 40A 3 stage charger instead. I secure it in my current class-A on the bulkhead just above the house battery compartment. When boondocking, I fire up the genset whenever I need to charge the batteries.

Am currently hooked up to shore power. The charger stays plugged in to a 110 outlet close by via a power strip. The only time I need to turn off the charger is when on Inverter power. Otherwise, the charger simply replaces the trickle charger that came with the converter and is "on" all the time.

Beside the charger, I have installed the same Inverter that I have had in those 5 RV's. So, yes, you can easily do all that stuff separately vs. buying a higher priced unit that "does it all" automatically.

Don, there is nothing wrong with your logic.

I have used a separate charger many times when either plugged into shore power or when using the generator.

You may find that you do need to disconnect the present converter/charger, if you are attaching one of the newer "smart chargers", as the added charge current may confuse (fool) the smart charger into thinking the batteries are closer to a full charge than they really are.  The smart charger may shut down prematurely in this case.

If you install disconnects, when you install your new batteries, your charging flexibility and options will be increased.

thanks fellers.......i don't have smart charger around my house..just and old one that i used to charge my boat bats with for years....i use everything i have until it wears out ..........that's why the old bounder is going to be just fine tooting around colorado......

i made a generator years ago for my first camper..........the battery just wouldn't power the furnace on in the cool mornings and i couldn't afford a generator at the time........

i used a spare 64 chev alt and an old clinton motor.......i removed a diode from the alt and made it produce more than enough power for the furnace motor..........too much really...........i had to then install an old voltage regulator that i had.....

anyway that was my first generator.............and i still have it........i think it puts out 50 volts at an idle........unregulated .....

thanks again......

Sorry for the intrusion.  Re
Topic subject: seperate charger ??

   My English teacher taught me many moons ago that there is "A RAT" in the the word seperate.

In other words it is "Separate


I know...picky,picky, but I have remembered that for 50 years.

  Oh well..

Season Greetings,  carson FL

sorry but i'm a long many years from grammar school........i think i was understood...

Hi Don,

I'm in the same boat I think.  Intend to run a separate charger as the converter is so bad at the job.

In my case my converter (a parallax 7355) conly charges the battery because it is attached as a load - there is no separate chraging circuit.  Because the replacement charger is going to be a 25 amp three stage one I intend to disconnect the battery from the converter - but ONLY whilst on shore power and the charger is on.  I need to connect it back to the converter when not on shore power otherwise I will have no house electrics 

I am planning to do this automatically with a relay.  I've sketched out a circuit (NOT my forte) and I reckon it will work.  The relay will disconnect the converter/battery connection whenever there is shore power and the battery charger will be on all the time (therefore powered up when on shore power).  When NOT on shore power the relay will close and connect the battery/converter together and then the battery will provide the 12v power (Of course as I am NOT on shore power the battery charger will not be doing anything)

Anyway, that's the theory (same as my theory for wiring up the shore power to swith my inverter on and off automatically)

If you have the charger, you don't need the converter at all.  Connect the charger in place of the converter.

Bryan said:

Intend to run a separate charger as the converter is so bad at the job.

Click to expand...

The terminology in these discussions does not always correctly indicate that there is a difference between a charger and a converter.

A converter "converts" a portion of the AC coming from shore/genset to DC to operate the house DC stuff -- vs. pulling it from the battery. That's why the DC lights get brighter when you plug into short/genset.

Most converter boxes also contain a separate charger unit -- or they may not contain a charger. In the later case, the charger is outside of the converter box. When connected to shore/genset, the converter converts AC to DC, and at the same time, the charger charges the batteries. Two separate functions altogether.

When I installed my Statpower 40A 3 stage charger in my Tioga a number of years ago, the house battery charger was not in the converter - but rather a separate unit that simply plugged into a house 110 outlet. In my current coach, the existing charger was in the converter box -- and powered via a breaker. So when installing my new charger with the Tioga, I just unplugged the existing charger from the 110 outlet -- and in my current rig, I just disconnected the charger in the converter box from the breaker giving it power.

When adding my separate charger, in neither case did I do anything whatsoever to the converter. In both rigs, when connected shore/genset, the converter just continued doing what it was designed to do and had no effect on the charging of my batteries.

A converter does not charge batteries -- and a charger does not convert AC to DC. 

I guess I don't see the distinction you are trying to make, Bob. The converters in our RVs these days are all converter/chargers (or inverter/converter/chargers, in some cases). These days most all of them have only one set of 12v outputs, so the distinction between "converting" and "charging" is nebulous at best. I haven't seen a converter/charger with separate outputs for converting vs charging since the 80's. Whether we call them a converter or a charger, the function is the same. The battery appears as one more load on the 12v output circuit.

RV Roamer said:

Whether we call them a converter or a charger, the function is the same. The battery appears as one more load on the 12v output circuit.

Click to expand...

That's the way my PD-9055 works.  The converter charges the batteries, therefore, the charger converts ac to dc. 8)

I have done exactly what Bob does though.  When I installed my Samlex inverter/charger, I simply unplugged the PD converter and use the charger function of the IC as my converter.  The PD-9055 remains completely functional.  Iin the event I ever need it, I simply have to plug it in.

RV Roamer said:

I guess I don't see the distinction you are trying to make, Bob. The converters in our RVs these days are all converter/chargers (or inverter/converter/chargers, in some cases). These days most all of them have only one set of 12v outputs, so the distinction between "converting" and "charging" is nebulous at best. I haven't seen a converter/charger with separate outputs for converting vs charging since the 80's. Whether we call them a converter or a charger, the function is the same. The battery appears as one more load on the 12v output circuit.

Click to expand...

Gary, that may be because this thread is not about, "these days" . . .  

I just re read my post -- and the distinction seems pretty clear. This thread is about adding a separate charger to an 80's rig. My Tioga was a 98 and my current Adventurer is a 96. The Tioga had a converter under the bed. About a foot or so away was another completely separate unit called a Charger. The names themselves imply what their function was/is.

The parallax 7355 which was the converter at issue here is similar to my current Magnetek Converter. The name on the front panel reads, Power Converter -- with battery charger. The top half of the unit is the converter and the bottom half is the charger (as opposed to being completely separate as in my 98 Tioga). A mobile RV repair guy that I used in Austin talked to me about replacing the bottom half with an upgraded Magnetek Charger -- which I declined. I then disconnected that charger via its' breaker. It was then "just" a converter.

If I go on from there, I would be re writing my post. So in the 5 rigs I have owned dating between '94 and '98, the following is true:

A Converter is just a converter.

A converter/charger is a converter with a charger built in.

In my '96 Adventurer, under my frig is a Magnetek converter (with the charger disconnected, it "converts" a portion of the AC to DC and supplies DC to DC appliances - nothing to the battery).

On the bulkhead above my battery bank is my Statpower charger.

On that same bulkhead just beside the charger is my Statpower Inverter.

So, semantically, IMHO, it is misleading on this thread to call a converter a charger.  

i hope i didn't cause any bad feelings here ???..........but, it sounds like you guys go back and forth all the time on a number of things.....

this is what i found out and what i did with the magnatron [marine/rv] .......

i have a deep cycle charger [10 amp] [ sears i think??] it has  auto and manual setting ....the auto kicks itself off down on the lower end.......on manual,  it just keeps cooking.......i let it cook [equalize right?]  all nite and brought the hydrometer up into the white and the voltage is holding at a little above 13 [even after cranking on the genny for awhile]  [i'l make sure i check it again in the morning, because if i'm not mistaken that bat has a 98 stamped on it ......i think it might be living on borrowed time!!

the voltage read just a little over 16 volts and every cell was perking nicely this morning when i disconnected....

i don't think charging has been done to this battery aside from what the converter in the mh has done.........the guy that i bought the mh from was not to handy, but he had a load of recites....[ everything that was done went back as oringinal]  [unlike what this owner will do ]

when i was replacing the battery back on its new platform i discovered a ground cable just hanging, it had not been connected to the battery [there was just one cable on the ground post] ....he must have been in a hurry when he hooked it up the last time???
if you remember, i couldn't get the genny to turn without the aux button ........imagine that  ;D  [not grounded!!]

if the megatron is that old. i'm do for a couple of new golf cart bats..........i'll keep it to switch off ......charger on one and the converter on the other.........

i think i may just do all of the wire swaps by hand, i made the platform high enough so that i can easily reach in and do the work that needs to be done.......shoot when the fish don't bite, i'll have to be tinkering with something ;D

thanks a lot. again...........

Don

Bob Buchanan said:

The parallax 7355 which was the converter at issue here is similar to my current Magnetek Converter. The name on the front panel reads, Power Converter -- with battery charger. The top half of the unit is the converter and the bottom half is the charger

Click to expand...

Sorry to take issue here but I have to disagree.  My Parallax 7355 (whic I have recently been getting to know very well  ) does not have a 'charger' at all.  The bottom half is the converter providing 12 volts (13.7v if you want to be pedantic) to the DC fuse board on the right hand side of the top half (the left side top half is the AC stuff).  The battery is connected to the DC fuseboard and is just another load on the DC circuits along with the lights etc.  Because the voltage is higher than the battery, the battery charges.  There is no 'charger' at all.  This is all in the Parallax manual BTW

Ned said:

If you have the charger, you don't need the converter at all.  Connect the charger in place of the converter.

Click to expand...

Hi Ned,

The battery charger I intend using is not suitable for use as a supply, so I need the converter for providing 12v for the house circuits when on shore power - unless I'm missing something.

Bryan

When on shore power, the charger will  charge the battery.  Regardless of shore power or not, the battery powers the 12V house circuits.  The only time a converter is needed is if there is no battery.  If a battery is present, it always powers the 12V circuits.

Bryan said:

Sorry to take issue here but I have to disagree.  My Parallax 7355 (whic I have recently been getting to know very well  ) does not have a 'charger' at all.  The bottom half is the converter providing 12 volts (13.7v if you want to be pedantic) to the DC fuse board on the right hand side of the top half (the left side top half is the AC stuff).  The battery is connected to the DC fuseboard and is just another load on the DC circuits along with the lights etc.  Because the voltage is higher than the battery, the battery charges.  There is no 'charger' at all.  This is all in the Parallax manual BTW

Hi Ned,

The battery charger I intend using is not suitable for use as a supply, so I need the converter for providing 12v for the house circuits when on shore power - unless I'm missing something.

Bryan

Click to expand...

I'm sorry to butt in but, if I recall correctly, you had an issue not long ago and we were discussing the parallax, and you mentioned that there are two wires coming out of the converter (a white one and a blue one) right? well, the blue wire provides 12v to the 12v outlets and lights while the white one (which is a separate circuit inside the converter box) provides 12v/2amp charge to the batteries. The reason why they are separate, is because the charging circuit has a cut off circuitry to keep your batteries from "overloading". Newer converters, like mentioned by Gary, are all inclusive (the same converter circuit has a current sensing circuitry that does the job of the charger).

> you mentioned that there are two wires coming out of the converter (a white one and a blue one) right? well, the blue wire provides 12v to the 12v outlets and lights while the white one (which is a separate circuit inside the converter box) provides 12v/2amp charge to the batteries.
>

Click to expand...

Fred,
Bryan is right. The white wire from the 7300-series converter/charger is a  ground and connects through the ground bus to the battery negative. It is NOT a separate charger wire.

Refer to the 7300 Installation manual here:
http://www.parallaxpower.com/7300%20Series%20Installation%20Guidelines%20rev%20A.pdf

Bob,
I'll cite the Magnetek/Parallax 7300 Owner/Operator manual:

CONVERTER OPERATION

The Parallax 7300 series electronic power converter is designed to supply the nominal 12v filtered DC power for all 12v operated devices encountered in RV service.  Although the converter is an excellent battery charger, the converter does not require a battery to be connected to it for proper operation

Click to expand...

http://www.parallaxpower.com/7300/51092351-000%20rev%20G.pdf

If your 7300-equipped rig has a totally separate charger in addition to the 7300, I suspect it is an aftermarket installation. It is certainly not  the usual case to have an additional charger along with the 7300 "converter with charger".

Ned said:

When on shore power, the charger will  charge the battery.  Regardless of shore power or not, the battery powers the 12V house circuits.  The only time a converter is needed is if there is no battery.  If a battery is present, it always powers the 12V circuits.

Click to expand...

Not stricly true.  There is no charger.  The battery WILL charge whilst on shore power but only because the converter is outputting a higher voltage than the battery (which is attached as a load in the same way as the house lights.)

When on shore power the house 12v circuits are powered by the converter which converts the shore power to 12v.  The battery does not power the house 12v circuits in this scenario.

When I connect an external battery charger, whilst the coach is connceted to shore power, if I don't disconnect the battery from the house circuits the battery charger will get confused by the 13.7v coming from the converter.

Bryan

No, the 12V circuits are always powered from the battery.  If you have a charger, then you can disconnect the converter, it's not needed and, as you say, can only confuse the charger.