seperate charger ??

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Ned said:
No, the 12V circuits are always powered from the battery.  If you have a charger, then you can disconnect the converter, it's not needed and, as you say, can only confuse the charger.
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Yes, I could disconnect the converter and the battery will power the house 12v circuits.  But imagine this.  My external battery charger is happily charging the battery and has just about topped it upto 100%  and I then switch on the lights and the ceiling fan and the inverter to watch tv.  The battery charger will then not know what the hell is going on because IT thought it had just finished charging it's battery when suddenly, all these amps were called for.

So that the battery charger can do it's job properly, the battery needs to be disconnected from the house circuits hence the need for the converter to be on and working when on shore power.

Or am I missing something  :)

Bryan
 
for the converter to be on aSo that the battery charger can do it's job properly, the battery needs to be disconnected from the house circuits hence the need nd working when on shore power.

that is the way i plan on working it.......i'm just going to keep it simple......but that is easy to do with a simple machine.. ;)
 
This is an academic debate, I think. The same unit, whether you call it a converter or a charger, does the job. If the battery is NOT present, the converter supplies 12v power. If the battery is present and the converter is not on or hooked in, then the battery provides 12vpower. If both are present, they both are a source of amps to the rest of the system but  since the converter/charger has the higher voltage output, it becomes the main power source.

Digiocoma wants to add a second charger for whatever reason, so he plans to disconnect the battery. That leaves the converter/charger to supply the house 12v power needs while the external charger is working.
 
Gary, when the bottom half is replaced by Magnetek, it adds more control over the charging of the batteries -- don't recall whether it meant 3 stage, but was called something like Intelligent something or other. So it became more than just another 12V segment as to the other house appliances.

However, the point is -- you are saying that the words Converter and Charger have the same meaning, and that is what I disagree with.

You Wrote: >> Whether we call them a converter or a charger, the function is the same . . .

And that, to me, is simply not the case.

When I disconnect the charging segment of my converter - it is only converting AC to run the DC appliances in my rig - and has nothing to do with charging the batteries. For whatever purpose the DC is used, be it running my furnace or whatever, it's function is to Convert AC to DC. How that DC is used as output is semantically, something else. Mine is labeled, Power Converter with Charger and that makes more sense. Some Converters could labled, Converter without Charger . . . such as the one in my Tioga. In either case, they are converters, not chargers.
 
digiacomo said:


that is the way i plan on working it.......i'm just going to keep it simple......but that is easy to do with a simple machine.. ;)
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digiacomo:

I hope to do it with a single pole double throw relay.  Very simple wiring and it means that if I am on shore power, the battery will connect to the charger and not the house circuit, and if I am off shore power, then the battery will connect to the house circuit and not the charger, all automatically  ;D
 
that sounds like a plan to me Bryan......

i am going to buy a set of golf cart bats and have them as my primary power source......and always have  a 12 volt deep cell as a back up.......when i start the generator it wiil be used to power a charger along with the house converter if need be.....

i just want to work that genny all i can when it's running i guess ;)......

i am learning that the bigger and newer that we get...........the more complicated things get......i don't know if i want that???........but i'm just starting out........so i don't know about it yet....
 
Keep it simple, disconnect the converter and forget the relay.  You're over analyzing the situation and adding unneeded complications.  Many of us have just a charger and batteries and the system works fine with no additional moving parts.  This isn't rocket science :)
 
Ned said:
When on shore power, the charger will  charge the battery.  Regardless of shore power or not, the battery powers the 12V house circuits.  The only time a converter is needed is if there is no battery.  If a battery is present, it always powers the 12V circuits.
Click to expand...

That has not been my understanding of how a converter works, Ned.

From THIS article, David writes:

"The relay only operates when you plug your rig into shore power. The relay closes off your house battery and allows the battery substitution unit to power everything in the coach. When the rig is disconnected from shore power the relay clicks back to a different set of contact points, and your rig will then be operating off of your house battery once again. Shore power is transformer power, house power is battery power, as far as your lights, heater, and pumps are concerned."
 
At one time (back in the dark ages) Magnetek did make a converter/charger that had one (1) ac-to-dc voltage converter with two (2) outputs.  One output ran directly to the loads the other output was connected the battery. Voila! it became a battery charger.  The two outputs were separated by an open relay contact.

When the converter was turned off (no shore power) the relay contact would close and the battery was connected to the loads.

This arrangement is seldom, if ever, used today.

The most common approach is to wire all 12v points together logically (with proper isolation diodes and safety disconnects where necessary) and let the highest potential point rule.

With the converter on, current will flow through the battery (charging) and/or through the loads.  When the converter is turned off, the battery becomes the point of highest potential and current will flow through the loads to the battery.

The older Magnetek converters are converter/chargers by default.  They convert ac to dc and use it to light lights and charge the battery.


 
Methinks I had one of those "dark ages" units in our 1985 Pace Arrow. IIRC it was the 6300, and here's what the owner's manual on the Magnetek web site says about it, confirming what Lou said.

12 V DC FROM STORAGE BATTERY
When 120 VAC is NOT connected to Power Center via commercial power or RV generator, the POWER CONVERTER section?via its Automatic Relay?will switch RV battery into the circuit for power to operate 12 volt lights and motors.
When 120 VAC is again available, connect it to Power Center. The POWER CONVERTER Section?through its Automatic Relay?will be brought back into circuit.
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Because the battery charging line was always connected, I used to physically disconnect it inside the converter/charger when hooked to shore power to prevent the batteries boiling dry.
 
RV Roamer said:
Fred,
Bryan is right. The white wire from the 7300-series converter/charger is a  ground and connects through the ground bus to the battery negative. It is NOT a separate charger wire.

Refer to the 7300 Installation manual here:
http://www.parallaxpower.com/7300%20Series%20Installation%20Guidelines%20rev%20A.pdf
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Gary, I know you are very knowledgeable in many things related to MH's and I respect you for that, but if you take a look at page 7 of the manual you linked, you will see that there are two configurations for the connection of the wires. Specifically look at numbers 1, 3 and 4. My unit is connected that way 1(blue wire 13.7v [12v systems]), 3(white wire 13.7v[battery + terminal]) and 4(ground coming from ground bar 0v[also battery - terminal]). I also know this because I already opened mine to replace one capacitor on the converter circuit, and five resistors on the charging circuit.
 
Bob, that's old technology and was used to conserve battery power when there was no charger.  Today there are thousands of RVs with a 3 stage charger and no converter that work without the added complexity of relays.  As I said, with the 3 stage charger, the converter is not needed and should be disconnected.
 
Bob Buchanan said:
That has not been my understanding of how a converter works, Ned.

From THIS article, David writes:

"The relay only operates when you plug your rig into shore power. The relay closes off your house battery and allows the battery substitution unit to power everything in the coach. When the rig is disconnected from shore power the relay clicks back to a different set of contact points, and your rig will then be operating off of your house battery once again. Shore power is transformer power, house power is battery power, as far as your lights, heater, and pumps are concerned."
Click to expand...

From that very article;
"Battery charging occurs because the converter manufacturer, installed a "Bleeder Resistor", which acts like a trickle-down reducer valve, between the converter-to-house power connection (the one that feeds all of the DC fuses in the face of your converter box), and the battery connector, located right before the relay. When the converter is humming away on shore power, the bleed resistor allows a small fraction of the converter's 30 amp potential to be siphoned off to "keep the house battery charged"."

Sounds to me like a converter just became a battery charger.
 
aka Porky said:
From that very article;
"Battery charging occurs because the converter manufacturer, installed a "Bleeder Resistor", which acts like a trickle-down reducer valve, between the converter-to-house power connection (the one that feeds all of the DC fuses in the face of your converter box), and the battery connector, located right before the relay. When the converter is humming away on shore power, the bleed resistor allows a small fraction of the converter's 30 amp potential to be siphoned off to "keep the house battery charged"."

Sounds to me like a converter just became a battery charger.
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Glad you enjoyed the article!!  :)

Actually, it "didn't" become a battery charger. It remained a converter.

The results of the conversion to DC runs the furnace, the house lights, etc., and, a small fraction keeps the house battery charged.

One could also call it a, "furnace runner", but that would be as semantically incorrect as calling it a charger . . . IMHO.  :)
 
Ned said:
Bob, that's old technology and was used to conserve battery power when there was no charger.  Today there are thousands of RVs with a 3 stage charger and no converter that work without the added complexity of relays.  As I said, with the 3 stage charger, the converter is not needed and should be disconnected.
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Yep -- am an old guy using old technology . . .  :)

I have disconnected the charging segment of my magnetek, Ned. So when hooked to shore/genset, are their any problems leaving it connected and having my DC stuff run from from the converted DC? I charge the batteries with a separate 3 stage charger. Am hooked to shore most of the time. Everything works and charging is done with the Statpower -- so unless using it this way would cause problems, I would plan to leave it alone.

If disconnecting is an easy chore, perhaps you can show me how at QZ in exchange for an apple fritter at the QZ bakery.  ??? :)
 
I guess I'm slow to realize where logic stops and semantics start. 

Seems to me that a very important part of a multistage charger might be a "converter" ;) :D ???

Just for grins I've attached a diagram of my conversion from a Converter/CHARGER to an Inverter/Charger.

The top half was original and the bottom shows the changes.
 

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  • RV Logical Charge.jpg
    RV Logical Charge.jpg
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Bob, you can disconnect the converter as Lou did, just unplug it.  But if your system is working for you, no need to change.  I still say the converter is not necessary with the 3 stage charger, per Lou's schematic.

As for an apple fritter, I'm always up for those :)
 
aka Porky said:
I guess I'm slow to realize where logic stops and semantics start. 

Seems to me that a very important part of a multistage charger might be a "converter" ;) :D ???

Just for grins I've attached a diagram of my conversion from a Converter/CHARGER to an Inverter/Charger.

The top half was original and the bottom shows the changes.
Click to expand...

To me, Logic "dictates" the semantics of that logic - that's why a converter shouldn't be referred to as a charger.  :)

I call a multistage charger a multistage charger vs. by one of it's component names. I always call a car a car, never, e.g., an alternator.  :)

Thanks for posting the diagram!! My inverter input comes directly from my battery -- am I correct that yours comes from your charger? Your diagram seems to have inverter input from incoming AC - or is that an Inverter/Charger. Am not familiar with Inverter/Chargers. Mine are two separate units -- both by Statpower.
 
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