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Author Topic: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]  (Read 8586 times)

DiGiacomo

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454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« on: December 18, 2009, 10:47:22 AM »
i have been working on the 454, [old 86 bounder] and have it running pretty dang good now, put in new cap rotor. high heat wires and ac rapid fire plugs..........i'm thinking about stripping all of the emissions, as i don't have to pass any tests here, but i'll have to give that a little more thought.......could be the first trip over monarch pass this spring will make up my mind on that decision  ;)..... 

i had to also install a new clutch fan,......but the thing that made it run better than anything else was the timing, it was way way retarded for some reason????.....i suspect maybe the guy didn't want to buy octane booster and retarded the timing so it wouldn't knock??

it has a new set of tires.......[8r 19.5]......they looked pretty dang skinny to me, specially in the front........so i went to talk with my tire man, he showed my the next wider 19.5 that he had, but when he put it up against an 8n, it was about 2 inches shorter......

so i guess i'l just stick with the skinnys.............i'l have to be careful when i set up on the shoreline  so that they don't sink  ;)

i know that most everyone here has newer and brighter.....but maybe someone can remember when........ and answer this question....

 i removed a thick rubber shroud that was fitted in over the radiator, so as to give the engine a little more air, for cooling and aspiration..........is this going to cause an unforeseen problem???

thanks again

Don
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

silveradomike

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  • Posts: 47
  • Heading to Mammoth California
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2009, 04:21:43 PM »
They way I understand it the shrouds are there to direct the air into the radiator where you need it and not around to the engine. The radiator is what cools the motor not the air around it.
2004 ArcticFox 27-5L FW
2005 Chevrolet 2500HD D/A

Biker56

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  • Posts: 133
  • Fulltime Since 1999
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2009, 04:39:11 PM »
The thick rubber shroud that was fitted over the radiator, was there to help cool the engine going up long hills.
99 Discovery 34Q ISB Allison 6 Speed
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DonTom

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  • Posts: 2197
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2009, 05:31:40 PM »
i removed a thick rubber shroud that was fitted in over the radiator, so as to give the engine a little more air, for cooling and aspiration..........is this going to cause an unforeseen problem???

I have heard a rumor that doing such can make your water pump fail from excess heat at slow speeds. I don't know if it's true.

I removed my shroud on my old 1984 GMC Class B van because it make it so much easier to work on when things went wrong, which was fairly often with that van. Removing the shroud never caused me any problems, but that's here in the nice cool SF area (in fact, seems we have the nicer and warmer days often near or during the winter, just like the sunny 62F we have right now) if I were going to spend some time in AZ in mid summer, I certainly would have considered putting the shroud back on.

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2009, 06:30:06 PM »
i guess i should have made myself a little more clear.... ;D

i did not remove the fan shroud....... :)

there was a piece of what looked like rubber belting screwed into the fiberglass above the radiator with holes cut out for the ac hoses and and oil filler and whatever else passed over the top of the radiator........with this gone it looks to me like the whole top of the engine can get airflow..........but i'm wondering if it causes a  wind problem in the cab [house]....at highway speed???...i am doing some other work on it and haven't taken it out since i removed the shroud [piece of rubber].......i would imagine that the dog house would blow off [ if not screwed down], at highway speeds, with this piece gone??........
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

DonTom

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  • Posts: 2197
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2009, 09:08:45 PM »
i guess i should have made myself a little more clear.... ;D

i did not remove the fan shroud....... :)

there was a piece of what looked like rubber belting screwed into the fiberglass above the radiator with holes cut out for the ac hoses and and oil filler and whatever else passed over the top of the radiator........with this gone it looks to me like the whole top of the engine can get airflow..........but i'm wondering if it causes a  wind problem in the cab [house]....at highway speed???...i am doing some other work on it and haven't taken it out since i removed the shroud [piece of rubber].......i would imagine that the dog house would blow off [ if not screwed down], at highway speeds, with this piece gone??........

I wouldn't worry about it. Especially during faster speeds unless I could see a difference on the coolant temperate gauge or some other obvious difference. And I seriously doubt you will notice any difference.

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2009, 09:23:24 PM »
no worry........just trying to give the bb a little more air ;)........the records show that the plugs and wires were changed 4 or 5 k ago and i broke two boots off the plugs  with not too much force......so either the wires weren't new or they got a little warm at one time or another??............oh well on to something else...getting ready for spring.....

thanks a lot.........
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

DonTom

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Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2009, 09:28:47 PM »
no worry........just trying to give the bb a little more air ;)........the records show that the plugs and wires were changed 4 or 5 k ago and i broke two boots off the plugs  with not too much force

Only time can tell if it helps, IMO.

-Don-
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2009, 12:24:05 AM »
I tried to respond to your post earlier from work,but my PC froze and was not able to reply when I hit the submit button. I removed the cover you are talking about on my 1988 Elandan, and the temp reading did not change at all. I did it mainly to keep the heat from rising into the cabin thru the dog house. I will tell you that it got noisier for the obvious reasons, but the cab stays cooler. I also removed the extra emissions system AIR which consist of two air pumps, two air valves and an extra EVAP canister. Only thing I need to work on now, is to get rid of the anoying "check engine" light, which I figured is somehow on the same circuit of the air valve electrical connectors. I'm curious to know which degree did you set your timing at?; cause I may need to do that too( I do not have a service manaul for the enigne).
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

DonTom

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Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2009, 02:58:04 AM »
Only thing I need to work on now, is to get rid of the anoying "check engine" light, which I figured is somehow on the same circuit of the air valve electrical connectors.

Don't make any guesses until you get the OBD code with a code reader or a ScanGauge2

Do you have the OBD code? If so, I might be able to help you with it as I have several GM factory service  manuals at my other home in Reno. I will be there this Thursday night. These manuals have pages dedicated to EACH code and there are a lot of codes. Let me know the year too.

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #10 on: December 19, 2009, 07:29:50 AM »
hey fred,

i thought chevy started the throttle body in 87???........maybe not on the bigger chassis???.............but it sounds like  between 86 and 88 they added a few things......i think my 454 only has one pump [i believe right under the ac pump]........and i don't believe the 86 has any 'check engine lights'.......and no computer at all.........

if your engine has a quadrajet, it probably is a little different design than mine??........the good thing is that you may have a knock sensor and the computer controls your timing???.............if you have taken some of the junk off already than you will need to adjust the timing, now if you have a knock sensor you will need to get the timing right then the sensor should take over.......

 you could have already wiped out any computer control.??  i will tell you how i set my timing,

i have a really nice timing light in a case just like new!!......only used once!!...................i just didn't like the spot that it told me to set the distributor.......

so i've been just setting by ear for years......and i probably am a little on the advance side, but i try to get my octane in the 90's somewhere............and now days we never know what the gas pump is gong to give us.......

so i set by ear,
try to get the octane right
and i take a ride and up the hill and listen for knocks!!! .......and adjust accordingly ??? there is a sweet spot to find that will work just right for your engine, the way you drive, and your altitude...
also listen for backfire on acceleration and deceleration.......try for no back fire at alll..just a nice rumble ;).....that's music to my ears... ;D

oh yes, glad i remembered to ask...........does your rig have cats???.......if yes .......and if your also remove them, you will have to start tuning all over again!!..

i suppose a lot of people will say "no way' .........but that's the way i've done it for many years.......
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #11 on: December 19, 2009, 07:34:26 AM »
Don,

if sounds like the  only way that he will get rid of the check engine light is to cut the wire!!......i think he is pulling all of the emissions controls off.....

Don
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

DonTom

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Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #12 on: December 19, 2009, 06:51:37 PM »
Don,

if sounds like the  only way that he will get rid of the check engine light is to cut the wire!!......i think he is pulling all of the emissions controls off.....

Don

Probably not a good idea. You may get stuck in "open loop" because of that and then the MPG will drop way down.

Closed loop means the O2 sensor keeps the air / fuel mixture at the perfect 14.7 to one, which is important when cruising at the same steady speed. A check engine light (depending on the code) can put it in open loop and then you won't be at the ideal mixture and you will notice the MPG go down. But you might not notice any difference otherwise. You won't notice any difference when speeding up a hill because then you're in open loop anyway, even when everything is normal. There are times when the 14.7 is NOT wanted, such as accelerating fast up a hill or when the engine is cold. That's why a computer controls this stuff. A check engine light might mean you're telling the computer to do stay in open loop at all times. If that's the case, you might as well remove your main oxygen sensor too, because it ain't doing anything!



-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #13 on: December 19, 2009, 08:31:20 PM »
Don

it sounds like his rig probably has a q jet and not throttle body.....and it could be an electronic controlled q jet they did them for a year or two ? ??......so maybe that's why there is a check light installed....he may not even have an oxy censor...???

he didn't say anything about cats???..........chevy did a lot crazy things in the years before the throttle body.....you just have to study what you have and decide what you want to do with it.......as long as you don't have to worry about emissions checks....

when you talk about close and open loop, a good way to get a few more horses on the throttle body injected engines, at wot is to pull the wire on the heat sending unit near the thermostat housing........this will tell the computer that the engine is still cold and it will keep the mix rich and at wot that will give you a little hp.....

i used to do this with the younger guys at work when they decided that they wanted to race my old chevy with their new shiny ones.........at lunch time i would slip out and pull the heat sensor wire and always gave me just a little more edge on them by the time we hit the hiway ;D........they never figured it out and i never told them ;)

hey fred, what happened to ya??................we need an update...... ;)

Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

DonTom

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  • Posts: 2197
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #14 on: December 19, 2009, 08:55:28 PM »
Quote
installed....he may not even have an oxy censor..

I must have missed owning a vehicle of those years. I didn't know they had check engine lights before the OBD1 days.

I wouldn't worry about it either, if there's no oxygen sensor. Just remove the lamp!

-Don-
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #15 on: December 19, 2009, 09:51:37 PM »
Don't make any guesses until you get the OBD code with a code reader or a ScanGauge2

Do you have the OBD code? If so, I might be able to help you with it as I have several GM factory service  manuals at my other home in Reno. I will be there this Thursday night. These manuals have pages dedicated to EACH code and there are a lot of codes. Let me know the year too.

-Don- SSF, CA

Mine is carburator and does not have a computer. In the manual it says that there is a module that senses when the system is not working properly and the check engine light comes on. This light is only to tell you the AIR system is not working properly and nothing else.
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

DonTom

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  • Posts: 2197
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #16 on: December 19, 2009, 10:47:13 PM »
Mine is carburator and does not have a computer. In the manual it says that there is a module that senses when the system is not working properly and the check engine light comes on. This light is only to tell you the AIR system is not working properly and nothing else.

A single code check engine light? ;D  What year is that thing? Must have been early 80's.

But then it's an easy fix to remove the check engine light. I had no idea they had check engine lights even before the OBD1 computer. Or perhaps I forgot about them.

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #17 on: December 20, 2009, 02:22:32 PM »
Since everyone seems puzzle about the sort of animal I have, I will give you a brief description of what was inside when I got it and what it has now. First of all, is a 1988 Winnie Elandan Sport 28EU. It has the 454W with a Tomco 4BBl carburator(mechanical). It has no catalytic converters and on the left, between the exaust manifold and the pipe, it has some valve of some sort (might be to warm engine faster or cruise control). It had two air pumps (one between the alternator and AC compressor, and the other one under the alternator). It had two exaust air valves controlled by vacuum and each had an electrical connector that go God knows where. It also had an extra EVAP canister next to the regular EVAP you find in every vehicle. It is equiped with cruise control, it has the three speed HD 400 Turbo tranny. This is what the chassis owner manual says about the "engine light":

Gasoline engine vehicles with heavy duty emissions have an Air Injection Reaction System with a "CHECK ENGINE" light.
The "CHECK ENGINE" light on the instrument panel will indicate the need for system service. It will come on during engine starting to let you know the bulb is working. (The light will stay on for a short time after engine starts.) Have the system repaired if the "CHECK ENGINE" light stays on continously.
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #18 on: December 20, 2009, 05:54:44 PM »
dang that sucker must have been the last one made before every thing changed.......... ;D.............heavy on the smog control!!

the valve down on the manifold is the heat riser...... for years they were thermo controlled and they would often stick ...one way or the other......... usually closed...

do you think the carburetor is stock???........i hate to say it, but i've never heard of 'tomco' carbs??

thanks for the info
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

DonTom

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  • Posts: 2197
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #19 on: December 20, 2009, 07:24:24 PM »
First of all, is a 1988 Winnie Elandan Sport 28EU. It has the 454W with a Tomco 4BBl carburator(mechanical).

By that time, many cars where already  MPFI (OBD1), such as my 1988 Biretta 2.8 L V6. But a lot of RV's were still behind the times.

I never owned a vehicle that had a single code check engine light, but I assume they did that too in the cars during the years just before 1988.
-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #20 on: December 20, 2009, 10:12:08 PM »

do you think the carburetor is stock???........i hate to say it, but i've never heard of 'tomco' carbs??

thanks for the info

It looks like it, cause the original owner kept all the manuals and documentation and that is the only manual I see for the carb. Other items, like the AC, have two different manuals, meaning he replaced the unit and recorded the date he changed it.
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #21 on: December 20, 2009, 10:17:41 PM »
Hey, DonTom, do you happen to have a P37 chassis service manual? I heard in other forums, that is the specific code for the P30 that is used on motorhomes and the info on the service manual is more specific to the proper aligning specs and other adjustments and torque specifications.
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

DonTom

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  • Posts: 2197
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #22 on: December 20, 2009, 10:45:26 PM »
Hey, DonTom, do you happen to have a P37 chassis service manual? I heard in other forums, that is the specific code for the P30 that is used on motorhomes and the info on the service manual is more specific to the proper aligning specs and other adjustments and torque specifications.

Is "P37" known by another name? I don't recall any such name on any of my chassis manuals, but I cannot be sure until I look on Thursday.

-Don- SF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Eight motorcycles:
Original owner of:
1971 BMW R75/5
1984 Yamaha Venture
2002 Suzuki DR200SE
2013 Triumph Trophy SE
2016 Versys 650 LT
2016 Moto Guzzi Stelvio
2017 Zero DS ZF6.5
2017 Zero SR 13 w/pwr tank

DiGiacomo

  • ---
  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #23 on: December 21, 2009, 08:16:29 AM »
i'm going to have to do some investigating on the tomco carb......if i come up with anything i'll let you know..........
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #24 on: December 21, 2009, 08:47:44 AM »
i'm going to have to do some investigating on the tomco carb......if i come up with anything i'll let you know..........
Thanks!
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

DiGiacomo

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  • Posts: 439
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #25 on: December 21, 2009, 10:24:51 AM »
hey fred

tomco is a giant carb rebuilder,,,,,they do all kinds of fuel delivery systems.........so i think you may have a Q jet rebuilt by tomco............NO??........YES??
Don & Joanne
86 bounder 454 gas
american car dolly

Fred G.

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  • Posts: 373
  • 1988 Winnie Elandan
Re: 454 and skinny tires..[my old bounder]
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2009, 12:42:01 PM »
I moved the MH to the front driveway, so I would remove the dog house and check.
I rather die on my feet than live on my knees. (Emiliano Zapata)

 

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