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Author Topic: why a V10  (Read 25197 times)

Uturnwilly

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why a V10
« on: July 14, 2010, 04:00:37 PM »
Our Jayco 24ss C-class is built on the Ford E450 with the V10 Triton engine.

What is the advantage of the V10 6.8l over a V8 of comparble displacement? 

Just so I know. ;D

thanks
Bill
Snellville, Ga

AndyinLexington

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #1 on: July 14, 2010, 04:21:11 PM »
I have had three of the V-10's - only one in a motorhome.  The other two were in a 15 pax van and a Ford Excursion.  I found it to be much smoother running, and nicer to drive because of that, than the comparable big block V-8's I've had.  FWIW, my V-10's were also much more trouble free, but that is likely related to the newer technology.  I've not had a "modern" big-block V-8, so nothing to compare it to there. 
Andy Holmes
2000 Holiday Rambler Admiral 34F
2005 Chev Malibu Toad
N1CPS
Lexington, Kentucky

scottydl

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #2 on: July 14, 2010, 05:09:08 PM »
When the Ford 460 was no longer manufactured, Ford switched all their heavy duty chassis vehicles (motorhomes included) to the V10.  I'm assuming that nothing in their V8 arena has the HP/torque for sustained heavy usage over time.  Why they went to 10-cyl versus just keeping a big block 8-cyl, that I do not know.  :)

Wikipedia always has something to offer it seems: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/V10_engine
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 1995 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 tow vehicle
- 1994 Thor Residency motorhome... owned 2007-2012

Mexray

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #3 on: July 14, 2010, 05:21:32 PM »
It's just plain cool to have the V-10 'bragging rights'.... ;D

Kind of like the Dodge Viper's V-10 screamin' engines - ,vroom, vroom...alas, Dodge quit building the Vipers this month!

I thinks it's the smoothness of the Ford V-10, that makes it such a 'hit' for the heavier vehicles - I believe they are a bit more economical, fuel wise, that would be a V-8 of similar specs...

As many an old hot rodder will tell you, "There's no substitute for cubic inches".... ::)

Ray
Ray & Pat near Lodi, CA...

camperkids1025

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #4 on: July 14, 2010, 05:27:29 PM »
When the 460CID was replaced with the V-10 it was mainly for the horse power output as well as the torque and the V-10 is a lighter weight engine.
Jim & Lois in Maryland
1999 37.5' Newmar Mountain Aire F-53 Chassis V-10 Ford
HWH Levelers / Bilsteins Shocks and Bilstein Steering Stablizer

scottydl

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #5 on: July 14, 2010, 05:31:31 PM »
As many an old hot rodder will tell you, "There's no substitute for cubic inches".... ::)

If that's the case, then the older big block V8 wins... it is 460 cubic inches, vs. the newer V10's 415 or 450 cubic inches (I've found references to both sizes of V10).   There are more cylinders, but they're all smaller.  ;D
Scott, wife, 3 boys... and the dog
- 2008 Forest River Wildwood 32BHDS
- 1995 Chevrolet Suburban C2500 tow vehicle
- 1994 Thor Residency motorhome... owned 2007-2012

carson

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #6 on: July 14, 2010, 05:40:04 PM »
here is a little twist.... I guess we are talking torque..

   I see/hear Harley hogs going by at 40 mph and I can almost count the RPM's of the engine.....pop-pop-pop etc

   I think we should encourage Harley to build a V* for RV use. Same design, same sound  (valve timing)  and everyone would be happy. V4/V8/V10,V12(Jaguar etc) will be out the door.

  Now that would be status symbol.  ???   Made in America.

Sign me up. 


Carson FL


 
Carson, 
 West Central Florida
Ex RV'er. (1995 Winnebago Adventurer)
2007 Buick Rendezvous, SUV / CROSSOVER

...Logic works like a charm...

InPursuit

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #7 on: July 14, 2010, 09:36:32 PM »
here is a little twist.... I guess we are talking torque..

   I think we should encourage Harley to build a V* for RV use. Same design, same sound  (valve timing)  and everyone would be happy. V4/V8/V10,V12(Jaguar etc) will be out the door.

I'd rather see Honda make the jump.

If you're talking torque their older V4 motors were tops!
The BOX STOCK early 80's Magna and Sabre 1100cc (65Cu in) were regularly dyno'ed at 108hp with over 90ft lb of torque...
and a red line of 11,000.  Now THAT is performance you can build on.

a 10 sec 1/4mi  http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PGfJ9IqXcoE
Bryan

2000 Georgie Boy Pursuit
Workhorse P32 chassis (It's a CH ch chevy...man!)
Now with new brakes, tires, improved suspension, remodeled bathroom, kitchen and over 9000 miles all since 3/10

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #8 on: July 14, 2010, 10:02:28 PM »
Ford doesn't have a big block V8 anymore, so there isn't much to discuss. GM's 8.1L V8 gave about the same performance as the Ford V10 in a similar size motorhome, and their displacement was close to the same, so I guess the fair answer is that the V10 did not have any particular advantage.

As far as general theory goes, a V10 can rev higher for the same displacement because the pistons are smaller and lighter than a V8 of the same displacement.  Now one has to ask, why do you want to rev higher?  I'll leave that question as an exercise for the student...
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

s2kskibum

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #9 on: July 15, 2010, 09:04:36 AM »
here is a little twist.... I guess we are talking torque..

   I see/hear Harley hogs going by at 40 mph and I can almost count the RPM's of the engine.....pop-pop-pop etc

   I think we should encourage Harley to build a V* for RV use. Same design, same sound  (valve timing)  and everyone would be happy. V4/V8/V10,V12(Jaguar etc) will be out the door.Now that would be status symbol.  ???   Made in America. Sign me up.  Carson FL

I HATE LOUD BIKES! I know your comment was a bit tongue in cheek, but can you just imagine the reliability issues of Harley motorhomes...? I am a Chevy guy, but am very imprerssed with the 460 in my Bounder.
1994 Bounder 34J, Ford F53

2KViggen

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #10 on: July 15, 2010, 09:25:17 AM »
For those of us who own a HD...... motorcycle that is .... can you imagine how much the HD powered RV would shake!!!!  It would be like driving down a cobblestone road in our present RV but we would be idling 

& yea, loud bikes of any make (OK, except Ducati) are definantly annoying

V8 vs V10 I drove 2 Fleetwood v10 RV's, a Terra & I can't remember the other model plus a WH V8 powered Bounder.  I really didn't pay any attention to how the RV accelerated (or I guess didn't accelerate) but I was looking at how the RV felt going down the road.  The WH felt a lot better & I am not sure if the actual chassis was different ot if the extra 3-7 feet of RV length made the Bounder feel better.

09 Buell 1125 cr

zukIzzy

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #11 on: July 15, 2010, 09:52:46 AM »
The triton engine line is modular. With a slight modification at the plant the same assembly line makes the 4.6, 5.4  v8s and the 6.8 v10. (there is a v6 version too but I am not familiar with it) It was an ease of manufacture thing to stop producing the big block and just add 2 cyl to the 5.4 v8

wayne

DandS

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #12 on: July 15, 2010, 10:34:35 AM »
What is the advantage of the V10 6.8l over a V8 of comparble displacement? 

Not sure there is one but they sure have a cool emblem !  8)

Utclmjmpr

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #13 on: July 15, 2010, 01:46:27 PM »
Carson, the Harley Davidson V twin does not get its distinctive cadence sound from the "valve timing",  its the odd number of degrees of the "V" design, not 45 degrees or 60 degrees.>>>Dan ( a dealer for 21 years)
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zukIzzy

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #14 on: July 15, 2010, 02:01:50 PM »
Carson, the Harley Davidson V twin does not get its distinctive cadence sound from the "valve timing",  its the odd number of degrees of the "V" design, not 45 degrees or 60 degrees.>>>Dan ( a dealer for 21 years)

You are right but they are 45* v twins. more comon is the 90* and 60* v motors.

FYI you can make a Corvair motor sound just like a harley by muffling 4 cylinders and running straight pipes out of 2 that are 45* apart ;)

KlipschHead281

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2010, 02:05:20 PM »
Ford doesn't have a big block V8 anymore, so there isn't much to discuss. GM's 8.1L V8 gave about the same performance as the Ford V10 in a similar size motorhome, and their displacement was close to the same, so I guess the fair answer is that the V10 did not have any particular advantage.

As far as general theory goes, a V10 can rev higher for the same displacement because the pistons are smaller and lighter than a V8 of the same displacement.  Now one has to ask, why do you want to rev higher?  I'll leave that question as an exercise for the student...

Well, in this case, the Ford V10 has a rev limit in a stock configuration of 5250rpms, not exactly a high revolution monster. But it is s a good durable engine and mine pulls 36ft of MH just fine.

KlipschHead281

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2010, 02:06:53 PM »
The triton engine line is modular. With a slight modification at the plant the same assembly line makes the 4.6, 5.4  v8s and the 6.8 v10. (there is a v6 version too but I am not familiar with it) It was an ease of manufacture thing to stop producing the big block and just add 2 cyl to the 5.4 v8

wayne

Exactly.  8)

Gordon Groff

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2010, 02:34:23 PM »
I had a Ford 460 in a '95 32' class C that was terrific.  A couple years later (97?), I drove basically the same coach in a V10 and was underwhelmed.  I was surprised in how much of a step down it was in torque.  I have a 2010 V10 in my 34' class A now and it's terrific.  Stronger than the old 460 FI.  Pulls great, can't hardly tell when my toad is back there.  It does roar like a banshee if I wind it up to 5000 rpm.  I always turn to my wife and say "I am Tiffin, hear me roar!"  Otherwise, it's quiet and well-behaved.

I think the first couple years of V10's were not as refined or as torquey as the current ones.  I don't think there's any intrinsic advantage to the # of cylinders.   Like as has been said, it was to streamline (cheapen) manufacturing for Ford.  I'm very happy to hear all the good reports of durability for this engine.  I was leery of it going in, based on my experience a decade ago.

Gordon
Gordon and Sweet Nancy
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Joezeppy

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2010, 02:55:05 PM »
I believe that for 2011 the Ford V10 is gone and is being replaced by a new 6.2L V8 - for the F250/350, at least. The 6.2 will even be available in certain versions of the F150 such as the "Raptor" - a specialty off-road pickup.
Joe & Kim
Upstate NY - Kuyahoora Valley
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carson

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2010, 03:30:15 PM »
Quote
carson, the Harley Davidson V twin does not get its distinctive cadence   sound from the "valve timing",  its the odd number of degrees of the "V"   design, not 45 degrees or 60 degrees.>>>Dan ( a dealer for 21   years)

Thanks guys, I knew my timing suggestion was a bit suspicious. I remember now having read about the real cadence origin.

Carson FL

« Last Edit: July 15, 2010, 03:31:57 PM by carson »
Carson, 
 West Central Florida
Ex RV'er. (1995 Winnebago Adventurer)
2007 Buick Rendezvous, SUV / CROSSOVER

...Logic works like a charm...

700renegade

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #20 on: July 17, 2010, 02:15:07 PM »
Carson, the Harley Davidson V twin does not get its distinctive cadence sound from the "valve timing",  its the odd number of degrees of the "V" design, not 45 degrees or 60 degrees.>>>Dan ( a dealer for 21 years)

Wait a minute....  I thought the Harley sound is from the fact they use a common crank journal for both cylinders.  Valve timing and angle of the cylinder separation aren't the reason are they?

Sorry to keep dragging this off subject.
'94 Newmar Kountry Star
38' Ford chassis w/ Granning air tag
single 12' slide

carson

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #21 on: July 17, 2010, 02:53:43 PM »
There must be an interest about the Harley cadence.

   I have never owned a Harley so I don't know what I am talking about.   ;D

Best think I can do is offer this link:  http://auto.howstuffworks.com/harley3.htm

I'll keep reading the posts.

Carson FL

Carson, 
 West Central Florida
Ex RV'er. (1995 Winnebago Adventurer)
2007 Buick Rendezvous, SUV / CROSSOVER

...Logic works like a charm...

Utclmjmpr

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #22 on: July 17, 2010, 03:41:42 PM »
Also both cylinders fire at the same time,,, one on the power (compression) stroke and one on the exhaust stroke, it uses a "timer" not a distributor and only one coil.>>>Dan
Vary rare American Tradition 38TT/330 turbo Cummins
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The difference between intelligence & stupidity is: intelligence has it's limits
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Geoff_T

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #23 on: July 18, 2010, 02:20:04 PM »
Hi

While no expert on the Ford V10 I have been reading bad things about them on Ford related web sites. Apparently there are lots of problems with the cylinder head spark plug locations....

http://www.twoguysgarage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7423

The plug held in the aluminium head by only 4 threads especially drew my attention.

I am really happy with the 7.5 litre Ford V8 that hauls our 350 based Fleetwood Jamboree Searcher  ;)

As for Harleys... I'm English, the land that produced the Vincent Black Shadow if you want a well designed V twin.
I prefer the thud of that beast to the stacato racket of the open pipe Harleys that hang around here!

Geoff

Utclmjmpr

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #24 on: July 18, 2010, 03:59:05 PM »
Geof,, Altho I also like the Vincents, I particularly like the two Ariel squares I own, nothing sounds like a Mk. 2  on a hard pull.>>>Dan
Vary rare American Tradition 38TT/330 turbo Cummins
Jeep liberty 4 down
72 VW Baja 4 down
Cedar City, Utah
USAF vet. 59-63
The difference between intelligence & stupidity is: intelligence has it's limits
      Albert Einstein.

KlipschHead281

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #25 on: July 18, 2010, 07:02:24 PM »
Hi

While no expert on the Ford V10 I have been reading bad things about them on Ford related web sites. Apparently there are lots of problems with the cylinder head spark plug locations....

http://www.twoguysgarage.com/forum/showthread.php?t=7423

The plug held in the aluminium head by only 4 threads especially drew my attention.

I am really happy with the 7.5 litre Ford V8 that hauls our 350 based Fleetwood Jamboree Searcher  ;)

As for Harleys... I'm English, the land that produced the Vincent Black Shadow if you want a well designed V twin.
I prefer the thud of that beast to the stacato racket of the open pipe Harleys that hang around here!

Geoff

The sparkplug issue was with V10's produced over a decade ago and the numbers were small, it's unfortunate that QC didn't catch the batch that made it into vehicles but again, the numbers were small.

RoyM

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #26 on: July 18, 2010, 07:27:58 PM »
The move from the torquey 460 V-8 to the higher revving V-10 likely had a lot to do with emissions. They didn't just tack 2 more cylinders on an existing design.
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Geoff_T

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #27 on: July 18, 2010, 07:42:17 PM »
Hi

My post was rather tongue in cheek because I couldn't see the point in making the V10... more reciprocating parts, and who needs high revs in an RV? As they are going back to a V8, presumably with good emissions as well, perhaps Ford see the error of their ways...  ;)

Yes, the Arial Square Four was a great bike, as were all the Vincents, albeit years ahead of their time. Then came the Japanese invasion that I watched, first hand, in the 1960's.

Harleys, to an English eye, are antiquated dinosaurs with tooth shaking vibration. An acquaintance had one and found it unwilling to go around corners... he sold it and bought a Ducati and his ride was transformed.

 :)


Geoff
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 07:51:02 PM by Geoff_T »

shawnc

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #28 on: July 18, 2010, 10:22:37 PM »
It's all about saving money on the assembly line.  It's part of Ford's modular engine line (4.6, 5.4 and 6.8 all have the same bore diameter).  The V-10 has the same bore and stroke as the 5.4.  That means they only need one size piston and can either change the connecting rod length or crank shaft to adjust the displacement and can use the same size pistons and connecting rods in the 5.4 and 6.8.  The angle of the bore banks may be varied though to fine tune for vibrations.

Other manufactures do it.  AMC did similar thing with the 2.5 and 4.0.  THe 2.5 was just a 4.0 with 2 cylinders lopped off and GM did it with the 4.2 I6, 3.5 I5 and 2.8 I4.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2010, 10:24:52 PM by shawnc »

Geoff_T

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Re: why a V10
« Reply #29 on: July 19, 2010, 04:20:13 PM »
Hi

It's still a bunch more moving parts though... a V12 would be smoother but even more parts.

The Vincent 1000cc V twins came about because Phil Irving (if I recall correctly) had two blueprints of the 500cc single on top of each other and realised, by rotating them 90 degrees, he could fit a twin in the same frame. I think the Jaguar V12's were two straight six heads on a new block.

 :)

Geoff