When towing four wheels down, can I go in reverse 2 inches? 8 inches? 10 feet?

Hi Gang,
I am towing a Mazda Miata four wheels down with a Roadmaster Falcon 2 Tow Bar behind my 31 foot Class C and it has been problem-free.  When my dealer installed it and the base plate for me, I was given a lesson in how to hook it up etc.  And, I was told that I could never back up under any circumstances.

I'm sure everyone else who's towing four wheels down knows how carefully you must plan your gas station and parking lot stops so that you never find yourself in the position where you have to reverse, since you cannot.  What you must do if you find yourself in such a situation, of course, is to unhook the toad, maneuver out of trouble, and rehook, which registers on the fun meter about the same as changing a flat on an inside rear tire. 

I have had some very close calls, but (knock on wood) have never had to unhook to get out of trouble.  HOWEVER . . . .

Is it really risky to back-up two inches?  A foot?  I imagine the problem is that it would be very easy to jackknife and significant damage could result.  BUT if the toad is aligned fairly parallel to the RV, and I watch in my rear-view camera, and back-up v-e-r-y slowly an inch at a time, watching that the rig does not come close to jackknifing, am I taking a risk?  There are situations where a few inches can make the difference.  The other day pulling out of a gas station I did back-up perhaps a foot, and no harm was done.

So, I am wondering, is a completely "zero tolerance " policy required?  Or, as long as the toad isn't at a sharp angle, may I reverse a small amount to extricate myself from a situation where the only alternative is to do the dreaded unhook- rehook?

AND BY THE WAY, the issue of whether you should tow a Miata four wheels down against the manufacturer's recommendation has been as issue on this board, so I want to let everyone know that after 5,000 miles, the Miata is fine and there have been no transmission problems.

Well from someone who has tried this with a Jeep Grand Cherokee, it just can't be done.  There's something in the way the caster or camber of the front wheels work against the motorhome when trying to backup.  Once, I started to make a right turn when I needed to go left in a campground.  I couldn't quite correct myself out of it, so I sent my son to sit in the Jeep and guide it straight back about 6 feet.  I was watching him in the rear view camera.  As soon as I started to go backward, the steering wheel was jerked out of his hand and went full lock to the right.  I stopped and he started the Jeep, straightened out the wheel (with the motor running so to have the advantage of the power steering) and we tried it again.  It violently wrenched the wheel out of his hand and went full lock again.  We had to unhook.

I'm not sure about the dynamics here, but I tried it again on my newer Jeep Commander with the same result.

I have successfully backed up a couple of feet on a couple of occasions. A couple of times when I tried it the wheels snapped to one side almost as soon as I started due to the camber issues as mentioned above.

It may be related to the position of the car relative to the motor home. If it is very straight it may work. If you ever try it I would have someone with a radio watching so they can stop you fast if needed.

We have backed up our motorhome and towed as much as 50' without problems.  You need a spotter and as soon as the front wheels on the towed start to caster, STOP.  Also, do NOT turn the steering wheel of the motorhome, you have to follow the same track backward as you did frontward.  Not all toweds will allow for this, like Mark's JGC, but it can be done, at least with some.  2" should not be a problem, if the towed wheels don't caster.  We've done this with both a Honda Accord and our GMC Canyon.

Don't bother trying to have someone in the towed to steer it, it won't work.

The risk is jacknifing plus excessive pressures on the tow bar and base plates, in a direction they don't handle well. The tow bar companies recommend against backing because of the unpredictable stresses, which can result is a failure hours or days later. They have no way to know how observant you are, how cautious you back, etc., so they just say "No".

But yes, you can usually back a bit if you are careful. The distance you can back all depends on the car, the initial position of the toad and coach steering wheels, type of surface you are on, etc. etc.  2"? Sure. 2 feet? Almost certainly. 2 yards? Uhhhh, maybe. 20 yards? Lot of luck!  With our current toad I can usually manage 3-5 yards with care, but sometimes it jacknifes almost immediately. I can see it clearly in the rear camera, so I know when to stop and do so at the slightest sign of turning.

Pavement works the best, while soft sand or deep gravel tend to make the toad tires turn sideways as they "snowplow". If the toad wheels are already turned, even slightly, you aren't going far at all. Ditto for any attempt to steer with the coach.

topdownman said:

Well from someone who has tried this with a Jeep Grand Cherokee, it just can't be done.  There's something in the way the caster or camber of the front wheels work against the motorhome when trying to backup.  Once, I started to make a right turn when I needed to go left in a campground.  I couldn't quite correct myself out of it, so I sent my son to sit in the Jeep and guide it straight back about 6 feet.  I was watching him in the rear view camera.  As soon as I started to go backward, the steering wheel was jerked out of his hand and went full lock to the right.  I stopped and he started the Jeep, straightened out the wheel (with the motor running so to have the advantage of the power steering) and we tried it again.  It violently wrenched the wheel out of his hand and went full lock again.  We had to unhook.

I'm not sure about the dynamics here, but I tried it again on my newer Jeep Commander with the same result.

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The only  way it will work; your son would have to pull the MH backwards.
J

As long as the towed doesn't jackknife, the tow bar isn't seeing any loads it doesn't see in normal braking.  They're designed for both compression and tension loads, as long as they're equal on both arms.

True enough, Ned.

Ned said:

Also, do NOT turn the steering wheel of the motorhome, you have to follow the same track backward as you did frontward. 

Don't bother trying to have someone in the towed to steer it, it won't work.

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But the problem here is that going back on the same path won't really help you get out of a tight situation. 

It will if the problem is not being able to go forward.  It may give you enough room to turn around an obstacle.  If you try to steer backwards with the motorhome, I guarantee it won't work.

I agree with Ned. Backing on the same path (it won't be exactly the same anyway) is usually enough to swing the coach around whatever the obstacle is.  Now if you are cutting a corner too close and don't have room to swing wider, you are out of luck anyway.

We have learned to get over the fear of unhooking. It's really a simple thing and the wife and I can unhook, move the coach (even U turns) and re-hook in 4-5 minutes.  We've gotten caught on dead end roads, construction-closed streets and tiny cul de sacs and it's simply not a big deal.  We avoid it, of course, but do not get upset if faced with a stalemate. Hop out, unhook, and get on with life.

Thanks all, for an interesting and useful discussion.

Gary, I think you're right, it's not that big a deal in many circumstances to unhook-rehook.  I suppose the fear is a remnant of those early days of RVing (7 months ago) when the whole towing issue raised my blood pressure and I was compelled to triple and quadruple-check every step of a job that is pretty simple once you do it a couple dozen times.

My main concern would be if my misjudgment and need to unhook caused delays for others, like if I ended up trapping cars in a gas station until I could straighten things out.  It's a special problem for me since I am the only driver, and would have to do a bunch of shuffling to get the job done.

My main concern would be if my misjudgment and need to unhook caused delays for others, like if I ended up trapping cars in a gas station until I could straighten things out.

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Rob, it happens to all of us on occasion so don't lose sleep over it.  I'm sure others have watched us a couple of times wondering what on earth our problem was - but I've never heard a horn honk or any comments from other drivers.  You just get out and do what you have to do as quickly as you can.  It might help to mouth the words "thanks for waiting."  People are surprisingly patient when they realize you're in a jam and just trying to get out.

By the way, we recently backed up the MDX about eight feet - very slowly and very carefully and very straight - without a problem.  It saved one of the dreaded unhookings.

ArdraF

The issue that causes the toad wheels to swing to lock as you back up is caster.  It's the same principle as the front wheels on a shopping cart.  When the cart is going forward, the center line of the wheels drags behind the pivot, so they want to stay in a straight line.

Cars are the same way - they're designed so the front wheels are slightly behind the pivot point.  This way the steering will return to a straight line when you let go of the steering wheel.

Try to pull a shopping cart backwards without the front wheels spinning around, and you'll immediately appreciate the problem.  When you reverse direction, the wheel center is now ahead of the pivot, so with any slight deviation the wheels spin 180 degrees so they are once again dragging behind the pivot.  In a car, this throws the wheel violently until it hits the steering limit.

We've backed up alot of times for about 6-10 feet....the key thing here is to make sure your toad's wheels don't turn all the way in one way or the other.....we've never even had our toads wheels even remotely turn when we back up, so no problem here. 

I agree with Ned, the Honda Accord is very forgiving when backing up (without unhooking) is required.  Stay as straight as possible, keep the distance as short as possible and do everything "slowly" so you can stop prior to any violent reaction from any caster effect.  I've had to do it many times (a foot or two almost every time I refuel).

I backed up about 25 to 35 feet or so once. Was having rig serviced at a CW in Vallejo, CA. After the job was done, I got in the toad while the service guy backed up my rig. I just unlocked the steering column, started the engine, and steered enough to keep the wheels straight . . .

In an emergency, you can also let the toad become a rig pusher. I have seen this done several times to get the stalled RV off the road. The wife steered the rig while the husband drove the hooked up toad.

If your rig won't run, you can also pull it backwards as long as someone is steering the rig.

Why unhook if you have a partner?? 

Hi if you read this, I just bought a 2003 5 speed and would like to know what year and transmission you had and and how many total miles you logged and any troubles

Thanks Richard [email protected]

34footer said:

The only  way it will work; your son would have to pull the MH backwards.
J

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I was thinking this.  Has anyone done this?  Obviously wouldn't work of you are pulling a YUGO, bit a jeep, SUV, or truck?
Put MH in neutral.  (Have DW in drivers seat to apply brakes if needed in a hilly situation)
Start TOAD and back up pulling the MH.

Derby6 said:

I was thinking this.  Has anyone done this?  Obviously wouldn't work of you are pulling a YUGO, bit a jeep, SUV, or truck?
Put MH in neutral.  (Have DW in drivers seat to apply brakes if needed in a hilly situation)
Start TOAD and back up pulling the MH.

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Nope, that won't work.  The problem is the caster setting in the towed car's front wheels.

Like the casters on a shopping cart, they track just fine going forward.  But try pulling a shopping cart backwards and the front wheels go anywhere but straight.

Same thing happens in the towed car, regardless of where the power is coming from.  The towbar locks the car in a pre-determined path and the wheels refuse to follow it when backing up.

And trying to hold the steering wheel in place while backing doesn't work.  I tried this and the forces pulling the wheels away from their straight ahead position just about ripped Cindy's arm off.