Fulltiming in (really) cold weather info?

Anyone know where I can find any info on fulltiming down to -40 degrees.  Most info i find for winter is around 20 degrees.  Any info would be great. Thanks. 

Anything colder than 20 degrees and everything freezes in an RV.

I am sorry, as I am not a traveling fulltimer.  I am just going to live in a 27' trailer, without moving it.  Does that help?

Full time or not doesn't make a difference.  Problem is - RVs just are not all that well insulated.  The walls are thin and the pipes can be close to the walls.  In some cases the pipes underneath the unit are entirely exposed.  Some sort of skirting to keep the wind from blowing underneath could help.

In addition to the problem of keeping the pipes from freezing you will burn through propane like you can't imagine. 
 

I use a drop light in two basement compartments; one where the gray and black tanks are, and one where the fresh water tank and the water pump are located.  I never had a bit of trouble with freezing using a 60 watt bulb in each.

I use heated insulation on my fresh water hose and outside (park) faucet.

I placed bales of pine straw around the base of my RV to eliminate air flow.  That in itself made it much more comfortable inside (I have hardwood floors and they can be quite chilly in the morning).  Don't forget to remove the bales when Spring approaches.

Inside I use a Mr. Buddy propane heater.  Efficient and very, very toasty.  The Mr. Buddy uses far less propane than my furnace (about a third of the amount the furnace uses).  I also use a small electric heater at night (I won't run the propane heater while I'm sleeping) and my front AC which has a heat strip.  The heat strip really doesn't do a lot to heat the coach, but it does help in keeping the inside temp tolerable overnight. 

Hope this helps.

I don't believe there is an RV in which you could survive at -40.  In extended periods of sub-zero temperatures your propane costs would exceed the rent on a nice warm apartment.

Luca1369 said:

I use a drop light in two basement compartments; one where the gray and black tanks are, and one where the fresh water tank and the water pump are located.  I never had a bit of trouble with freezing using a 60 watt bulb in each.

I use heated insulation on my fresh water hose and outside (park) faucet.

I placed bales of pine straw around the base of my RV to eliminate air flow.  That in itself made it much more comfortable inside (I have hardwood floors and they can be quite chilly in the morning).  Don't forget to remove the bales when Spring approaches.

Inside I use a Mr. Buddy propane heater.  Efficient and very, very toasty.  The Mr. Buddy uses far less propane than my furnace (about a third of the amount the furnace uses).  I also use a small electric heater at night (I won't run the propane heater while I'm sleeping) and my front AC which has a heat strip.  The heat strip really doesn't do a lot to heat the coach, but it does help in keeping the inside temp tolerable overnight. 

Hope this helps.

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What is the coldest you have been in?  It seems to me that electric heaters are the only option.  I am wondering if I should just install foam on the interior of the windows to cut down on the condensation/ice on the inside.  Was there any other issues you had? Thanks.

Ned said:

I don't believe there is an RV in which you could survive at -40.  In extended periods of sub-zero temperatures your propane costs would exceed the rent on a nice warm apartment.

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I would be very surprised if I spent $2,200.00 + on propane for the water heater, stove and occasional use of the furnace.  But thanks for your input anyways.

MCFLYFYTER said:

I would be very surprised if I spent $2,200.00 + on propane for the water heater, stove and occasional use of the furnace.  But thanks for your input anyways.

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Are you going to be paying for electricity? Electric heaters suck up a lot of electricity. And at -40 degrees, you will NOT be using the furnace occasionally, you'll be running it non-stop. Last November, we were in central Oregon and the low every night was in single digits. We used an electric heater plus a blue-flame heater running all night and lots of blankets and comforters to keep us warm. Even the dog was cold. We kept all the blinds and curtains closed and stuffed pillows in the roof vent openings. I can't imagine spending an entire winter at sub-zero temperatures in a trailer. But that's just me.

Wendy

At sub-zero temperatures, the furnace will not shut off and you'll burn a lot of propane.  There will be no occasional use of the furnace.  At $2.50-3.00/gallon, it will mount up quickly.  Where are you planning on living?  $2200/month seems like a lot of rent unless you're in downtown Manhattan, but then I've not rented for a while.

MCFLYFYTER said:

What is the coldest you have been in?  It seems to me that electric heaters are the only option.  I am wondering if I should just install foam on the interior of the windows to cut down on the condensation/ice on the inside.  Was there any other issues you had? Thanks.

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Ohio winters.  Lots of snow.  Temps routinely in single digits, rarely below zero, a couple of times each winter.  I use that foil insulation from PPL on the windows so I get a little condensation.  In north Georgia the winters are a bit milder, but there are still single digit days in Jan. and sometimes Feb. 

I can go through 2-3 twenty pound tanks of propane in a month with the Mr. Buddy; far less than my furnace would use if I ran it continously.  I run the fridge on electric summer and winter since most places I stay include electric with the monthly rent.

My biggest problem has always been keeping the outside faucet from freezing.

Ned said:

At sub-zero temperatures, the furnace will not shut off and you'll burn a lot of propane.  There will be no occasional use of the furnace.  At $2.50-3.00/gallon, it will mount up quickly.  Where are you planning on living?  $2200/month seems like a lot of rent unless you're in downtown Manhattan, but then I've not rented for a while.

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Google " North Dakota Housing Shortage "

There have been several threads here in the past on cold weather and RVs. I don't think much can be done to make -40 livable, but you can research what we know about below-freezing weather. Use the SEARCH function.

Here are a couple previous discussions that I found:

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=13513.msg123883#msg123883
http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=19046.msg180466#msg180466
http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=8401.msg80591#msg80591
http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=11481.msg103990#msg103990

I would use an envelope outside, A high pitched pole shelter, wrapped in some sort of barrier.  Keeps the winds off and the snow off. 

I guess you HAVE to stay there?

I don't have to stay here, but for the money, I would be crazy not to.

Skirting, in my not so humble opinion, is a necessity to keep the wind out from underneath.  As one poster mentioned straw bales work very nicely.  My grandparents used them on the outside of their house, built in 1908 or so, every winter.  No insulation on bsmt walls.  I'd be tempted to put as many layers high on the straw bales so as to not obstruct windows, doors or utilities.

You are going to have troubles with water pipes.  As mentioned in another thread heat tape with a foam pipe wrapper around the pipes should help.  Dunno about the water outlet though.  Sewer is another concern.  If those services are near your trailer I'd suggest surrounding the foam piping with straw bales on either side and on top.

Hmm, the more I think about it we had, and still do, have the same issues in mobile homes here in Alberta.  I'd suggest talking to folks who move mobile homes and such or similar experienced folks.  Mind you these days mobile homes are likely to be made of 2x6 and/or have another layer of foam on the outside.

Hmm, maybe put straw bales on the roof to help keep it warm.  <shrug>  Dunno if that's a good idea especially in spring when the rain would start to appear.

MCFLYFYTER said:

Anyone know where I can find any info on fulltiming down to -40 degrees.  Most info i find for winter is around 20 degrees.

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Are you sure that your propane will vaporized at -40?F with essentially continual use? At -44?F the vapor pressure of propane is zero. In my opinion you will not have enough vapor pressure to run your furnace at -40?F. Don't forget that as the propane vaporizes, the temperature of the liquid is cooled below ambient temperatures--the more you use the more your liquid temperature will go down. At the very least, you are going to need some sort of heater for your propane tank.

Richard

RLSharp said:

At the very least, you are going to need some sort of heater for your propane tank.

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Grandfather would put a 100 watt, or so, infrared heat bulb under the large propane tanks for the barns at his Manitoba farm.  So long as a small portion of the tank is "boiling" that's enough to get the vapour pressure up.  Now a vertical 100 pound propane tank would be slightly different.

Side note.  I don't recall the temp but I had to start Dad's heavy duty construction forklift in winter one time when we hadn't had the block heater plugged in because I didn't think we would need it that day.  So I got the 20 lb tank and the tiger torch from the shop and got that nice blue flame under the engine block.  After a few minutes I noticed the flame was now orange and spitting.  So I moved the pickup around so the passenger door as next to the forklift engine block and put the tank inside.  Now there was a nice blue flame again. 20 minutes later and I could start the forklift.

MCFLYFYTER said:

Anyone know where I can find any info on fulltiming down to -40 degrees.  Most info i find for winter is around 20 degrees.  Any info would be great. Thanks.

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It can be done. I do it. Where I was born, raised, and still live, we get 5 to 7 months (September to April - on cold years right on into June) of snow with at least 2 of those months (December to March) under -20F, and -48F BEFORE wind chill factor is not uncommon. We can get 9 to 21 feet of snow. While the rest of the USA shuts down schools at a couple of inches, we have to see 2 or 3 feet of snow in a single storm to warrant a "snow day". And I live on a beach besides so the wind never dies and is howling all year long. While the rest of the USA is calling 120F a heat wave, we are dying at 75F, which is just way outside of our heat threshhold.

Plan on NO running water - drain your tanks, unless you are able to insulate well enough to keep the pipes and tanks from freezing. You can't bath/shower in these temps, and you are better off drinking bottled water, and if you REALLY need to bath/wash, it's a simple matter to melt snow over a fire. So, your best bet is to just drain the tanks. Pipes and tanks can't freeze if there is no water in them.

DO NOT have a water flushing toilet - take it out and have a composting one instead, or as one person I know does - use a cat litter box.

Hay is your friend. In the fall before snow comes, buy lots of hay - enough bales to go around the entire outside edge and stacked like bricks up the sides - it's the only way you are going to keep out the cold - metal walls are thin.

Do not overlook curtains. Put curtains over all windows and doors and between rooms - long curtains floor to ceiling (52 - 72" long), made out of velvet and lined with minkie fur (a type of fake fur) - to keep out the cold, keep in the heat, and require only small sections to need heating at a time. Lots of curtains - don't just put one pair on a rod, swish 5 or 6 panels on the rod, so they hang in deep folds. They don't make curtains like this, you will have to sew them yourself. Remember - metal is cold. Metal attracts cold too it. Metal can become up to 20F colder than the air around it. Skin sticks to frozen metal. Your walls are made out of metal. These thick curtains are the only thing protecting you from freezing stuck to your walls.

You are going to want to equip your RV with the following:

[list type=decimal]

[*]bath tub - NOT SHOWER STALL! - for washing you, your cloths, and any pets all with one load of water - water made from melted snow

[*]or even better than a bath tub - a wash bin - if you can find such a thing - they went out of style in the late 1800's - I have one - it's basically a giant pot, big enough to sit in and take a bath

[*]solar panels on roof

[*]wind turbin

[*]generator

[*]skylights every 3 feet to allow lots of natural light inside (thus removing the need for electric lightbulbs)

[/list]

DO NOT plan on electric hook-ups, when the power goes out during a storm (at least around here) it could be 2 or 3 months before it comes back online. Know that solar panels are not going to do much good either, cold regions get very little "useable" sunlight. Plan on having a BIG supply of flashlights, batteries, candles, and matches.

You may want to consider putting a wood stove in your RV. I'm considering the possability of adding a wood stove. I've heard of folks doing it, but I'm not sure how it is done, or if I really want to cut a hole in the roof for a chimney.

Plan to cook ALL of your meals over an open fire OUTSIDE. Both electric and gas stoves are unlikely options for you. You'll likely be without electricity and gas is not safe used in an RV that is sealed up as tight as your RV will need to be sealed up in order to keep out the cold - you need ventilation to run gas powered appliances - sealing up an RV for sub-zero weather, closes off that much needed ventilation - you'll be dead in a few hours if you turn on your gas stove or gas generator - without it. #1 cause of winter deaths: people turning on a gas generator and not opening all of the windows!

Make sure you have sat iron posts and pans for cooking over an open fire.

For "extras", thing you should not be without:

• 2 sub zero sleeping bags - one -30F and one -40F, one inside the other
  
• heavy thick fleece blankets and minkie fur blankets - several
  
• a full leanth fur coat - real fur, with the hides still on - look for a 1920's era mink at Goodwill
  
• a full length fleece coat to wear under the fur coat
  
• a fur hat
  
• a knit hat to wear under the fur hat
  
• fur lined boats - fur all the way to the toes
  
• snow shoes
  

Know this: in temps this cold, a tent is warmer than a metal vehicle. I say this from experience.

When the temps are that low a heater does no good, chances are it's too cold to get the car battery to turn over the engine, and if you can't get the car/RV started than you can't get the heater to come on. Homeless people freeze to death inside cars in this kind of weather. Being up off the ground, cold wind goes right underneath and chills the inside to even colder temps than the outside. And a car/RV is metal - it holds in the cold VERY well.

The tent is going to be much warmer. Smaller, so not as much area to heat. Personally, I do not have a tent, I have a 8x6 tarp, hung from a tree to make a "tent" - tarp is thinker, stronger, and warmer than the think nylon tents are made out of.

I wear 3 dresses one on top of the other, 2 kimono (full Japanese w/ obi etc - not "American style" housecoat kimonos) over that, a fleece hunters jacket over that, a full length winter coat over that, and a 200 year old full length mink coat over that, a knit hat on my head and a fur hat over that, a pair of gloves worn inside a pair of mittens. Than me and my 12 cats wrap up in a fleece blanket, get inside of a -30F sub-zero sleeping bag, and zip that up inside a -40F sub zero sleeping bag. I built a large nest, like a bird's nest, out of 3 bales of hay (opened and unbaled), and the sleeping bags were places inside of this, than spare hay pulled over the top once me and the cats were inside the bags.

Keep a shovel in the tent, if it gets buried in snow you'll suffocate - you got to dig out an air hole so you can breath. Dig it near the bottom in the front and a second near the top at the back (to keep the air circulating), NEVER a single one straight over head! (which could cause a cave in and death from being smothered by snow.) Brace a large log standing upright, in the center of your tent to keep the snow sliding off and stoop your tent from collapsing.

If you have access to it, line the inside of your tent with hay or cardboard, to hold in heat. Stack bales of hay around the outside and bury those in snow, these keep out the cold.

THIS is how I survive on a beach, on the Atlantic Ocean, under a tarp, during Maine's harsh sub-zero costal winters. And no - I WOULDN'T live any place else. People ask me this all the time: "Why the heck don't you live someplace else?" I like where I live. I love this type of weather. I prefer cold and snow to sun and heat. It's not an ideal lifestyle for most people, but it's the perfect lifestyle for me.

wow

Good information.  We are looking at wintering in much milder temps.  We should only get down into the teens at the coldest (I am hoping).  Good information though - you are a rugged individual.

Paula