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Author Topic: "An RV"?  (Read 12504 times)

DonTom

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"An RV"?
« on: December 15, 2010, 09:20:12 PM »
"The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing"

Shouldn't it be "a RV" instead of "an RV" since "R" is not a vowel?

" an" The form of a used before words beginning with a vowel or with an unpronounced h: an elephant; an hour." (1994 AHD3).   

                                      -Don-
« Last Edit: December 15, 2010, 09:22:16 PM by DonTom »
-Don-   AA6GA

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Tom and Margi

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #1 on: December 15, 2010, 09:42:48 PM »
Well, maybe or maybe not. 

If one reads or speaks RV as recreational vehicle, then "a" reads best.  If one reads or speaks RV as "Ar V", then "an" reads best.  Usage rules are changing rapidly in this day and time.  Some of the recent additions to various dictionaries are pretty hard to fathom by us old rigid grammer buffs.  ::)

Margi

DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2010, 09:52:16 PM »
 "If one reads or speaks RV as "Ar V", then "an" reads best."

Okay, sounds good to me!

"The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an AR-V or an interest in AR-Ving" ;D :)

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2010, 11:23:20 PM »
It's pretty comforting that we don't have anything more important to worry about than this.  ;D ;D :D  Well, at least not today!

Margi

Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2010, 12:11:16 AM »
The first time anyone has complained about our grammar in over 17 years. Don was around at the old place too  ;D
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2010, 12:35:21 AM »
The first time anyone has complained about our grammar in over 17 years.
Was that also over the "an RV" then too?

-Don- SSF, CA
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Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #6 on: December 16, 2010, 12:37:59 AM »
Yes it was Don. I guess you're just a slow reader  ;D
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2010, 12:51:05 AM »
Yes it was Don. I guess you're just a slow reader  ;D
By any chance, was it also me who mentioned it 17 years ago?

BTW, I might be slow, but not nearly as slow as you are to fix it, so people like me won't mention it!

I mean 17 years and you still have not yet corrected it?

Isn't fixing stuff like that the main job of the Forum Administrator? ;D :D

-Don- SSF, CA
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Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2010, 12:56:46 AM »
Quote
By any chance, was it also me who mentioned it 17 years ago?

Don't recall it being mentioned before.

Quote
.... but not nearly as slow as you are to fix it ....

LOL Don, you sound like my other half.
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Rancher Will

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #9 on: December 16, 2010, 03:31:10 AM »
Grammar rules are just as flexible as needed.

I recall reading that Sir Winston Churchill once received a letter from a school teacher taking him to tack for his grammar. She specifically complained that he ended sentenses with a preposition.

Sir Winston wote a letter back with the statement, "This is the sort of nonsence up with which I will not put."

Wendy

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #10 on: December 16, 2010, 11:09:52 AM »
I mean 17 years and you still have not yet corrected it?

Why would he correct it when it ain't wrong ? :)
 
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AverageBOB

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2010, 11:22:11 AM »
I fail at english, I barely get by in conversations haha.....

(no not foreign) the way the language is structured just sucks.
If a pigeon had his brains

It would fly sideways.

BobNSam

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2010, 11:32:33 AM »
piece of info matches my long ago memory re A vs AN...
 
from
 
English-Zone.com
 A/AN - Lesson on Articles   
WHEN TO USE -A-
Use a if the next word begins with a consonant SOUND.
This is a sound rule, NOT a spelling rule.
a box
a cat
a university           (university begins with a consonant sound)
a unicorn            (unicorn begins with a consonant sound)
a European trip  (European begins with a consonant sound)
a hotel                 (hotel begins with a consonant sound)
WHEN TO USE -AN-
Use AN if the next word begins with a vowel SOUND.
This is a sound rule, NOT a spelling rule.
an atom
an entrance
an ice cream cone
an uncle                  (uncle begins with a vowel sound)
an hour                   (the h is silent, thus a vowel sound)
added by moi
an RV                     (RV begins with a vowel sound [Ar])

I support leaving "The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing" as currently posted.
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AverageBOB

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2010, 11:56:20 AM »
piece of info matches my long ago memory re A vs AN...
 
from
 
English-Zone.com
 A/AN - Lesson on Articles   
WHEN TO USE -A-
Use a if the next word begins with a consonant SOUND.
This is a sound rule, NOT a spelling rule.
a box
a cat
a university           (university begins with a consonant sound)
a unicorn            (unicorn begins with a consonant sound)
a European trip  (European begins with a consonant sound)
a hotel                 (hotel begins with a consonant sound)
WHEN TO USE -AN-
Use AN if the next word begins with a vowel SOUND.
This is a sound rule, NOT a spelling rule.
an atom
an entrance
an ice cream cone
an uncle                  (uncle begins with a vowel sound)
an hour                   (the h is silent, thus a vowel sound)
added by moi
an RV                     (RV begins with a vowel sound [Ar])

I support leaving "The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing" as currently posted.


I dictate which one to use by (are they plural? Is it a particular thing?

I win?
If a pigeon had his brains

It would fly sideways.

Molaker

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2010, 12:01:07 PM »

I dictate which one to use by (are they plural? Is it a particular thing?

I win?
Gee, Bob.  Now I understand your 1st post in this thread.  :)
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Marc L

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #15 on: December 16, 2010, 12:04:14 PM »
Lyrics from ROCK YOU, by Helix:
Quote
Gimme an R...



When I am unsure how to write something, I rephrase it to eliminate it.


"The friendliest place on the web for RV owners or anyone interested in RVing"
Marc...

DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #16 on: December 16, 2010, 12:17:01 PM »
Lyrics from ROCK YOU, by Helix:


When I am unsure how to write something, I rephrase it to eliminate it.


"The friendliest place on the web for RV owners or anyone interested in RVing"
That sounds perfect! Go for it! Who can change it here?

-Don-
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Molaker

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #17 on: December 16, 2010, 12:19:25 PM »
Lyrics from ROCK YOU, by Helix:


When I am unsure how to write something, I rephrase it to eliminate it.


"The friendliest place on the web for RV owners or anyone interested in RVing"
My what a tangled web we weave...Since RV is just an acronym for Recreational Vehicle, how can you use the term "RVing"?  Shouldn't you rephrase that part, too?
Tom & Joyce and Ditto the "don't tell her she's a dog" Westie
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #18 on: December 16, 2010, 12:28:28 PM »

Why would he correct it when it ain't wrong ? :)
Perhaps if it's wrong or not depends only on whom asked. It seems my dictionary says it's wrong and so do I. Doesn't that settle it? ;D

-Don- SSF, CA
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maddog348

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #19 on: December 16, 2010, 03:29:39 PM »
A 'Recreational Vehicle' ~ An 'RV' (vowel sound.)  JM2¢
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Marc L

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #20 on: December 16, 2010, 03:32:02 PM »
Cousin Eddie settles it:
This is an RV
« Last Edit: December 16, 2010, 04:40:26 PM by Marc L »
Marc...

AverageBOB

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #21 on: December 16, 2010, 03:35:03 PM »
Gee, Bob.  Now I understand your 1st post in this thread.  :)

Hey how about that! Now we can get along like best buds! :P
If a pigeon had his brains

It would fly sideways.

Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #22 on: December 16, 2010, 08:54:23 PM »
Y'all can debate until the cows come home from pasture, but it's been that way for 17 or so years and won't change. It's a part of our forum branding, and so will stay. You'd have a better chance of getting Coke to change their brand to Koke  ;D

BTW it's also grammatically correct, according to the grammar school I attended  ;)
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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #23 on: December 16, 2010, 09:00:56 PM »
Good for you, 'Tom!  Stickin' to your guns!

I'll say once again ... if this is all in the world any of us have to be concerned about today, then we're in really good shape!  ;D

Margi

Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #24 on: December 16, 2010, 09:05:14 PM »
LOL Margi, thanks for the moral support. Methinks that Tom (DonTom) was bored and needed something to complain about.
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #25 on: December 16, 2010, 09:31:51 PM »
Methinks that Tom (DonTom) was bored and needed something to complain about.
Yeah, but I have a good excuse! I am up all night every night and this gives me something to do, but now you're trying to spoil the little fun I have here. ;D

I didn't expect anybody to change it just for me, but I can still have fun trying, can't I? ;D

And BTW, I think that's a real stretch to say "R" is pronounced "AR" when it's really just pronounced "R". I have not seen a single example where they have used "an" before an "R" in any dictionary usage note. They all show it before a vowel or a silent "H" with a vowel after that silent "H".   

-Don <"Tom" knows better than to start up something like this!>- SSF, CA
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Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #26 on: December 16, 2010, 09:46:43 PM »
LOL Don, I see you here in the middle of the night, so I know what's going on  ;D
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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #27 on: December 16, 2010, 11:12:41 PM »
Oh Geez, Don. ;D   I have so enjoyed your posts over the years!  Here's my version of the alphabet.  ;)

Aye Bee Cee Dee Eee Eff Gee, Aich Eye Jay Kay El Em En Oh Peee, Cue AR Ess Tee Ewe Vee, Double-U Ex Why and Zee.

Now I've said my ABC's, you're going to work and I'm goin' to sleep    ;)

Margi


PancakeBill

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #28 on: December 16, 2010, 11:17:34 PM »
Of course, back in New England R is Ah. 
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seilerbird

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #29 on: December 17, 2010, 06:45:14 AM »
Jeez, did everyone here fail English? The A or An rule is not written in stone, there are exceptions. There are lots of examples where you use An instead of A when the first letter is a consonants that sounds like a vowel. You would not say "I am going to the doctor for a xray". It would be an xray. "I will meet you in an hour", not a hour. The R in RV is pronounced are, so therefore the forum motto is grammatically correct. However if this place is really the friendliest I would hate to see the most hostile.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 06:46:58 AM by seilerbird »

DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #30 on: December 17, 2010, 08:37:25 AM »
Jeez, did everyone here fail English? The A or An rule is not written in stone, there are exceptions. There are lots of examples where you use An instead of A when the first letter is a consonants that sounds like a vowel. You would not say "I am going to the doctor for a xray". It would be an xray.
You must be using Margi's alphabet,  Ex-ray!
Quote
"I will meet you in an hour", not a hour.
Yeah, but a silent "H" is the one exception that is fine, according to my dictionary.
Quote
The R in RV is pronounced are, so therefore the forum motto is grammatically correct. However if this place is really the friendliest I would hate to see the most hostile.
If this debate is the hottest one in this forum, we have very little to worry about, as Margi says.

BTW, are you all saying that my dictionary is wrong??? Again:

"an 1 (indef.art. The form of a used before words beginning with a vowel or with an unpronounced h: an elephant; an hour."   

                                    -Don- SSF, CA
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 09:04:42 AM by DonTom »
-Don-   AA6GA

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seilerbird

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #31 on: December 17, 2010, 09:02:04 AM »
Yes I am saying your dictionary is wrong. The A and An rule is not a spelling rule it is a sound rule. You don't go by the actual letter, you go by the sound of the letter.


http://www.english-zone.com/grammar/a-anlessn.html

Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #32 on: December 17, 2010, 09:12:55 AM »
This topic has been moved to the 'English spelling and grammar' board. Maybe we can get a an one some answer there  ;D
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #33 on: December 17, 2010, 09:18:17 AM »
Yes I am saying your dictionary is wrong. The A and An rule is not a spelling rule it is a sound rule. You don't go by the actual letter, you go by the sound of the letter.


http://www.english-zone.com/grammar/a-anlessn.html
If we use Margi's alphabet, then we can almost always use "an" instead of "a"! But "R" Doesn't sound like a vowel to me! Neither does the "a" in "are" even though the "a" there is.

vow·el n. Abbr. v. 1. A speech sound created by the relatively free passage of breath through the larynx and oral cavity, usually forming the most prominent and central sound of a syllable. 2. A letter, such as a, e, i, o, u, and sometimes y in the English alphabet, that represents a vowel.

How does "R" (even in "Are" where the a is silent) sound like "a, e, i, o, u" ?


                                               -Don-
« Last Edit: December 17, 2010, 09:22:48 AM by DonTom »
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BernieD

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #34 on: December 17, 2010, 09:34:34 AM »
I agree with Tom (Seiler), I go by sound. I choose between "a" and "an" automatically when speaking, I don't stop to think which is more grammatically correct. I would guess that most of us do the same. When I say "an RV" it feels comfortable, when I say "a RV" it doesn't.
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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #35 on: December 17, 2010, 09:37:49 AM »
My sentiments exactly, Bernie.  ;D

Don - The "aaah" sound of R is what makes using "an" more correct.  It's a different sound than rug, robot, rectangle, radio, etc., which would use the "a".

I'm getting a headache.  8)

Margi

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #36 on: December 17, 2010, 09:41:41 AM »
Phonetic pronunciation of the letter R is: \ˈär\
Marc...

Molaker

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2010, 10:08:12 AM »
Grammar "rules" were developed to ensure communication was understood - and for old maid school teachers to harp on.  If "an" is understood as used in this case, then 1/2 the job has been accomplished.  Now all we have to do it satisfy the old maid school teachers.
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2010, 10:08:32 AM »
My sentiments exactly, Bernie.  ;D

Don - The "aaah" sound of R is what makes using "an" more correct.  It's a different sound than rug, robot, rectangle, radio, etc., which would use the "a".

I'm getting a headache.  8)

Margi
But to me "R" only sounds like "R" and even "ARE" sounds like "R". There's even no sound with that "a" in "are".

But I see I am outnumbered. So it should be changed to "a" because:

"Whenever you find that you are on the side of the majority, it is time to reform."
--Mark Twain ;D

-Don-
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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2010, 11:32:53 AM »
"ARE" sounds like "R".

It's the other way around, "R" sounds like "ARE." And since you are totally outnumbered, you might as well give up.
 
Now, if you really want to start a grammar argument, ask about where the period and comma go when there are quotation marks !!
 
Wendy
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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2010, 11:40:30 AM »
Good idea, Wendy!  I could really learn from that discussion as I'm never really sure what's proper.

Margi

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2010, 11:49:50 AM »
Good idea, Wendy!  I could really learn from that discussion as I'm never really sure what's proper.

Margi

Proper (in American English) is that periods and commas go INSIDE the quotation marks, always (look at newspapers, magazines, books). But I'm sure there will be some here who will argue otherwise. And because of computer use and the internet, I think it's a rule that is changing....you want to send someone a website link and put it in quotes, you certainly don't want to include a period or comma that isn't part of the URL. You can get around that by using single quotes or putting the URL in italics or bold.
 
Wendy
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Marc L

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2010, 12:09:42 PM »
Language evolves (and/or deteriorate) over time at different rate and in different ways depending where you are at given period in time.  Very hard these days to say what's proper and what's not.
Marc...

BernieD

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2010, 03:08:09 PM »
Language evolves (and/or deteriorate) over time at different rate and in different ways depending where you are at given period in time.  Very hard these days to say what's proper and what's not.

So true, you can now refrudiate.
Bernie & Marlene Dobrin
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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2010, 03:20:07 PM »
So true, you can now refrudiate.
Now that's funny!
Tom & Joyce and Ditto the "don't tell her she's a dog" Westie
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #45 on: December 17, 2010, 06:13:39 PM »

It's the other way around, "R" sounds like "ARE." And since you are totally outnumbered, you might as well give up.
 
Now, if you really want to start a grammar argument, ask about where the period and comma go when there are quotation marks !!
 
Wendy
Me give up? I don't give up until all others admit that they are wrong! ;D And I never argue about anything (stop laughing, Tommy!). I only debate!

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

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Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #46 on: December 17, 2010, 06:26:49 PM »
Hey Don, I grew up in a different country, with a different version of "English". Try asking Tom how his HK/UK version of English would say it.
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #47 on: December 17, 2010, 08:30:25 PM »
Hey Don, I grew up in a different country, with a different version of "English". Try asking Tom how his HK/UK version of English would say it.
I did. He says "an RV" sound correct, but we rarely agree on anything anyway. ;D

BTW, I know they speak a different language in England. I noticed that the first time we ate out in London and asked for the "check". They asked "what cheque?" Then another tourist overheard and said "they mean the bill".

"Two nations separated by a common language."
-unknown

-Don Quoteman
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Auburn, CA or Cold Springs Valley, NV or  Reno, NV

Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #48 on: December 17, 2010, 08:36:49 PM »
I have no idea what language they speak in England. I've only been there a few times, and was born in a different country  ;D   I knew Tom would have received some Queen's English in his education.
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DonTom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #49 on: December 17, 2010, 08:47:34 PM »
I have no idea what language they speak in England. I've only been there a few times, and was born in a different country  ;D   I knew Tom would have received some Queen's English in his education.
He was born and lived in Hong Kong until High school. He went to high school in Northern Ireland (in Armagh) and lived in West Malling (in Kent, south of London). And his British accent was a lot harder for me to understand than his Cantonese accent when we first met in 1974.

But the fact we couldn't always understand what each other is saying is probably how we got along so well over the years.  ;D

-Don- SSF, CA
-Don-   AA6GA

2000 Fleetwood Tioga 24D, 7.4L

Auburn, CA or Cold Springs Valley, NV or  Reno, NV

Wendy

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #50 on: December 17, 2010, 08:55:27 PM »
He was born and lived in Hong Kong until High school. He went to high school in Northern Ireland (in Armagh) and lived in West Malling (in Kent, south of London). And his British accent was a lot harder for me to understand than his Cantonese accent when we first met in 1974.

HK English, Irish, London English and Cantonese ? I would love to meet him and hear that accent.
 
Wendy
Wendy, Mike, and Gordon
~We can't be lost because we don't care where we're going~
Here's where we are http://map.datastormusers.com/user2.cfm?user=2276
2015 Allegro Ooen Road
1973 Sunshine Yellow VW Bug

Tom

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Re: "An RV"?
« Reply #51 on: December 17, 2010, 09:10:49 PM »
Aye Don, I know  ;D
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