Kia Borrego V6 (Mid SUV) and trailer size?

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Hi All,

New to RVing, and this forum.  I've read online that a good towing safety margin is in the 20~25% of max tow rating, so my wife and I are looking at TT's in the 3,500~4,000 lb range, we've narrowed it down to a Forest River Flagstaff 23LB (23 ft) bunkhouse because the sleeping fits our needs and it's the only brand the closest dealer carries.  Which is the first question....

Is it important, or does it really matter were the dealer is you buy from?  Would you go out of state, or +200 miles to get a trailer or buy closer to home for warranty work?



Then there's the Tow vehicle:  (We just bought it so we really can't change it for something bigger)

It's a 2009 Kia Borrego V6.  It took some digging (Had to wait for an answer from Kia Tech services) but here are the numbers from the "factory":

Tow hitch specs (As supplied with vehicle):

Hitch class = Class IV (4)
Max. tow weight = 10,000 lbs
Max. tongue weight = 1,000 lbs (Accepts weight distribution hitches)


Vehicle towing specs: (From manual)

Max. towing wt. (V6) = 5,000 lbs
Max. tongue wt. (V6) = 500 lbs*

* = 10% total trailer weight

My vehicle: 2009 EX, 3.8L V6, 4X4
Std. EX= 245/70-17 wheels, no sun roof, no rear A/C
4 wheel disk brakes (12.9" f, 12.8"rr)
Vehicle wt. = 4,600 lbs (Full tank of gas, no occupants. Weighed on truck scales)
Max. Vehicle wt rating = 6,063 lbs (GVWR).
Max. front axle wt. = 2866 lbs (GAWR)
Max. rear axle wt. = 3,638 lbs (GAWR)

Still trying to get the CGVWR (Combined Gross Vehicle Weight Rating ... Max Borrego weight + Max trailer weight). Don't know for sure, but was told by several RV centers that it's more complicated than simply adding the GVWR and the max. trailer towing weight.  But I don't even know if that matters so long as I'm under the max trailer weight (-safety margin).  Geez, there are so many numbers bouncing around in my head I can't tell what's important or not anymore ???

I guess the questions are:

Has anyone towed 3~4k trailer with a V6?  I know it won't be powerful vehicle on the road but is V6 towing passable?

Any thoughts on the FR Flagstaff TT model line?

I was thinking about getting a ProPride WD , anti sway hitch.  It might be overkill but I've read only positives about the hitch. 

Also thinking about the Kodiac disk brake conversion kits or are shoe brakes more than enough?


I know my questions are kinda all over the place but I'm trying to avoid a more serious and costly learning curve.

Thanks in advance

Can't comment specifically, but I used to pull a car trailer with a Ford V6...long story short, I ended up getting a full size pickup.

It's not just the towing capacities, etc...it's also a BRAKING and CONTROL thing. My car/trailer combo was probably around 5000#. It was not a safe/comfortable feeling. (Even tho the trailer had brakes, too)

With the pickup (Nissan Titan) it was a whole new ballgame. No issues or worries.

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Thanks for replying-

I checked with a couple of auto parts stores and a local dealer, all the brake rotors, calipers, pads, master cylinder, ABS, etc. are the same for the V8 version which has a tow rating of 7,500 lbs.  I'm thinking the under pinnings of the V6 and V8 are the same (Except maybe front springs for the V8's extra weight).

Control is an issue I'd like to be in control of, that's why I was thinking of changing out the trailers drum brakes for disks.
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There was an optional rear drive V8 for the Borrega, and I suspect the hitch and tow rating had that in mind. But Kia does rate the V6 for 5000 lbs towing, even if that is rather optimistic for a SUV this size with a car like suspension.  Pulling a 5000 lb trailer with the Borrego is really pushing the envelope. I would say 4000 lbs is tops and would really recommend closer to 3500.  That gives you some room to have passengers and gear in the car as well as pulling the trailer.

Kia Borrega review & Specs

One of the disadvantages of a V6 for towing is that it has to rev up rather high to get its rated horsepower, yet towing is down almost exclusively at lower RPMs unless you drive around in 3rd or 4th gear all the time. And you won't like the noise, heat or engine wear if you do that.

I'm not knocking the Borrega - I'd love to have one for myself. But this class of vehicle is not really set up for heavy hauling and you would be wise to stay on the light side with any trailer.

Gary RV Roamer said:

There was an optional rear drive V8 for the Borrega, and I suspect the hitch and tow rating had that in mind. But Kia does rate the V6 for 5000 lbs towing, even if that is rather optimistic for a SUV this size with a car like suspension.  Pulling a 5000 lb trailer with the Borrego is really pushing the envelope. I would say 4000 lbs is tops and would really recommend closer to 3500.  That gives you some room to have passengers and gear in the car as well as pulling the trailer.

Kia Borrega review & Specs

One of the disadvantages of a V6 for towing is that it has to rev up rather high to get its rated horsepower, yet towing is down almost exclusively at lower RPMs unless you drive around in 3rd or 4th gear all the time. And you won't like the noise, heat or engine wear if you do that.

I'm not knocking the Borrega - I'd love to have one for myself. But this class of vehicle is not really set up for heavy hauling and you would be wise to stay on the light side with any trailer.

Click to expand...

i agree with Gary, having towed with a Rav4 V6 a fair bit it does get quite annoying to have to really ring the engine out to get up to speed and sometimes manage a constant speed in hilly sections of road. You'll work your machine alot harder then it feels like it was designed for and it will make for some white knuckle driving. If you look at my Sig, you'll see i fixed that situation with a proper TV.
only advice i can give is install a set of helper airbags on the back of that independant axle SUV, it makes a world of difference when it comes to stability and passenger comfort.

Alex

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Thanks for the info ...

I'm kinda in a box when it comes to the tow vehicle.  Although the Borrego is new (Less than 4,000 miles on it) I'd really take a bath if I tried and traded it in now.

So, with the Borrego in hand, here's the numbers I'm working with:

*** I'm not trying to talk myself into or out of anything, nor am I seeking the answers I want.  I'm trying to balance what I have to work with and avoid making what could be an expensive mistake of both TV and/or TT.  If I'm way off then I'll have to adjust  ***

TV and passengers (counting personal car carrying effects) = 5,550 lbs (or 90% of 6100 GVWR)  leaving 10% margin
TT, hitch, and stuff (We weighted everything on our packing list and then added 100 lbs for "oops forgot")  4,350 lbs (or 87% of towing capacity) leaving 13% margin.

We're not cross country travelers.  Mostly looking to go on weekends.  Maybe within 300 mile range of home, mostly flat with some hills (not mountains).

I know capacities are listed for a reason and it looks like I'm within the Max ratings, but I'm at the 10~13% margins.  I've read where I should be below 20% of the published Max ratings.  Is the 20~25% margin a rule of thumb comfort level or has it proven to be an absolute must guideline?

Again, thanks
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There are lighter poptop tent campers out there. They sleep 4-6 and for the kind of trips you describe they do the job. I pulled one from Chicagoland to the tip of Nova Scotia and back and really enjoyed it. Take a look. . .

u4eah said:

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I know capacities are listed for a reason and it looks like I'm within the Max ratings, but I'm at the 10~13% margins.  I've read where I should be below 20% of the published Max ratings.  Is the 20~25% margin a rule of thumb comfort level or has it proven to be an absolute must guideline?

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Click to expand...

The 20% - 25% is basically for the western mountain driving.

Marsha~

We use a 10% "rule of thumb"  to allow for the weight of passengers & gear in the tow vehicle, as well as the weight of the hitch itself. We increase that to 20% in the western mountains, to allow for high altitude (3% loss of engine power per 1000 ft) and the long, steep grades. But that assumes a reasonably capable tow vehicle to start with.  I'm a bit reluctant to say that a short wheelbase V6 SUV is "capable", but it may be adequate for your planned usage, which seems to be relatively light duty. The Borrega has a truck style suspension, a sturdy frame rated up to 7500 bs with the V8, and a 5 speed tranny with the V6, so it's a heftier vehicle than other SUVs of its size and type.  The biggest drawback is that a V6 doesn't deliver much horsepower & torque at lower RPMs. Whether you will be satisfied with it, only you can judge.

I'm also concerned with the tongue weight, given that you said you have only 10% of GVWR left for the trailer and hitch. If the trailer weighs the 4350 you estimated, then the tongue weight is going to be in the range of 450-650 lbs and probably about 525 lbs. That's every bit of the to Borrega's remaining GVWR, which means its suspension is maxxed out and probably wallowing. Not comfortable for you and not effective for towing Are you really going to have it loaded that heavily?

Another question is, "what would you do if you tow it and decide it is uncomfortable or unsafe"?  Could you afford to upgrade the tow vehicle if that were the case? If not, you might want to set your sights a bit lower on trailer size, to avoid that possibility.

Another factor to consider is wind resistance, which increases with the square of your speed.  At highway speeds there's a big difference in the amount of power required to move a small utility or boat trailer that's basically drafting behind the Borrega vs. a high and wide stand-up height RV trailer.  Especially if you're driving into a headwind - a 20 MPH headwind increases the wind resistance just as much as adding 20 MPH to your groundspeed with no wind.

It's very likely your Borrega's tow rating was computed using a small frontal area trailer.  If you're maxed out on weight, you'll have no reserve to handle the increased wind resistance of a stand up trailer.

I tow behind a similarly equipped vehicle and it can be done, although it's certainly not ideal.  Honestly, my biggest concern with towing that trailer would be the length - 23 feet is longer than I would be comfortable towing behind a smaller vehicle.  It looks like the Borrego's wheelbase is about 8 inches longer than my Jeep so that would help, but I'd still be a bit nervous.  Also, as Lou mentioned the frontal area is another consideration.  I'm right at the limit for my Jeep and the trailer you mentioned is even wider than mine so it's going to be even worse for wind resistance.  Plus it starts out about 500 lbs heavier than mine, and when I camp it's just me so the trailer and vehicle aren't very heavily loaded.

I guess my conclusion based on my experience is that you probably could tow that trailer if you were careful to pack lightly, but I suspect you wouldn't be very happy with the way it towed.  Unfortunately everyone draws that line in a different place and your vehicle isn't exactly the same as mine so I can't give you a definite answer.

Thanks everyone for the insights and suggestions. 

I guess I was looking back fondly when back in the 70's my father took the family across the country (PA to CO and ND to TX) with his '76 Dodge 4x4 Ramcharger pulling a 1968 24' trailer.  I forgot when it was my time to drive how the Ramcharger's short wheelbase would experience yaw (Pivoting left and right about the center of the of the TV) even before the trailer was hooked up.  Although back then the Hensely style hitch didn't exist.  I was younger then and just thrilled to be driving.  I'm a little bit older now.

I was mostly looking at just the numbers (Weight of TT and TV, capacities, ect.).  I found some trailers (Trailmanor and R-Visions Crossover) that bring the weights down to 3,600+/- lbs loaded (options and packed camping gear) which give more margin on all capacities (TV and tow rating), but yeah, there will be wind and not always a tailwind.

So, and not to belabor the point, But the subject of trailer length has been brought up.  Is there a formula for TV to TT?  I imagine that all weight-length factors go into setting up a workable, and enjoyable solution, but is there certain trade off's, like if the trailer is light enough the length doesn't matter (again within the 22'-24' range) or is it regardless of trailer weight because of the Borrego's wheelbase a person really shouldn't exceed (xx) ft long trailer?

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I don't know of any widely accepted rule of thumb for wheelbase vs trailer length. There are too many variables to generalize easily anyway. A longer wheelbase TV will generally tow better than a shorter one, but any plusses there are easily overwhelmed by issues of trailer balance, side winds, total trailer weight, etc. And the issue isn't exactly trailer length per se - it is the effective trailer wheel base, which is the distance between the trailer axles and the hitch point. And pick-ups can safely tow a longer 5W than a TT, because of the 5W hitch geometry.

There is no cut and dried answer to this sort of question. You can tow big trailers with small or light duty vehicles and everything will be fine MOST of the time. The you get into bad weather or some sort of emergency, e.g. swerving to avoid an accident, and it's white knuckle time, or everything goes into the crapper, because the TV is operating at its outer limits to begin with.

U4eah,

I know you are in the process of making decisions, but wanted you to know that some good friends of ours have the Trailmanor trailer and love it.  It's made very well.

Marsha~

I used to have a Trailmanor 2720SL, a nice unit, and it folds down to about half height for travel. Mine was just over 4,000 lbs ready to travel, and I initially towed it in the Rockies with a 2003 Explorer Sport Trac, which worked pretty well, though slow on the climbs. Recently they've also been making non-folding lightweight trailers (both types are hard sided).

If that thought appeals to you, check out the Trailmanor web site and the Trailmanor Owner's Forum. That forum is as civil and as helpful for Trailmanors as this one is for other RV types.

I think a very important part of the post is "We're not cross country travelers.  Mostly looking to go on weekends.  Maybe within 300 mile range of home, mostly flat with some hills (not mountains)."
We pull a Heatland Edge M-22 with a 2009 Buick Enclave and have had no issues. I have installed an external transmission cooler and Reese sway control hitch. If the OP was pulling a TT across the continent for 8 months of the year, I would say to definitely choose a larger TV. But distance and terrain must be factored into the equation.

The amount of research you have done and are continuing to do says a lot.  I have a hunch if you ran into a strong headwind or a long stretch of downhill breaking you would be apt to proceed with caution.  A big plus.  The difference in HP required for 62mph vs 70 is significant. The difference in time it takes to get 200 miles isn't.

North Americans are so used to huge engines in small vehicles that they think having the gas petal on the floor is pressing a detonator.  A Spaniard or Filipino see a gas petal as an on/off switch.  I like owning a Ford ranger because they are sold in 130 countries.  They probably tow bulldozers on flatbed trailers up mountains with them somewhere. I once pulled a three motorcycle trailer from north of Kansas City to Gold Camp Road, Co in the dead heat of August with a 1.2 Datsun (Not a misprint 1.2 L, 74 cubic inches)  Foot on the floor for 1,200 miles.  Didn't use a drop of oil or and ounce of antifreese.  Car companies run new cars full throttle or 100mph for hours on end on test tracks and tear them down to ensure that there is NO wear.

Use a little caution and enjoy the ride.

u4eah said:

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We're not cross country travelers.  Mostly looking to go on weekends.  Maybe within 300 mile range of home, mostly flat with some hills (not mountains).

I know capacities are listed for a reason and it looks like I'm within the Max ratings, but I'm at the 10~13% margins.  I've read where I should be below 20% of the published Max ratings.  Is the 20~25% margin a rule of thumb comfort level or has it proven to be an absolute must guideline?
......

Click to expand...

Altho this is an old topic, the thing seems to have warmed up again so I feel I should clarify that 10% - 20% issue.    We recommend using a 10% safety factor in tow ratings to account for truck cargo and passengers.  It is a bit of a comfort zone in towing.

We recommend using a 20% safety factor for gasoline engined tow vehicles that will be used in the 11 western states with their 10,000+ passes and 7,000 foot plateaus and miles long, steep 6% + grades.  That 20% is based on the fact that almost all gasoline-engined vehicles lose 3% of their rated HP per each 1,000 feet of altitude above sea level.  [Diesels being universally turbo charged for the past few decades do not take this severe altitude hit.]

That 20% figure is far more serious than the general 10%.  I know, I have towed with a gasoline-engined tow vehicle for  15 years all over the far west.  Even with the 20% factor which my rig had, I spent a lot of time chugging up passes on Interstates in 1st gear -- and coming down the other side in the same gear.  Take that 20% as gospel.

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First, thanks to everyone who answered.  Lots of good info and insights.

OK, we jumped off the edge and bought a Gulfstream Visa, 23RBK.  The "As delivered weight" is 3,650 lb.  Well within both the weights suggested here and well within my own comfort level (Really don't want to burn up the Borrego before it's time).

We've been weighing just about everything we think we'll take along (Stuff, hitch, food, etc.), plus this time I'm really gonna go on a diet, and we're still below the 4,000 lb mark.

I wired in the brake controller and after a few sparks, the smell of burning plastic, and holes in my new car , it's in and working (As near as I can tell until the trailer is hooked up).

Kinda excited to get going and try it out, but we don't take delivery until later this week.  The older boys (20 thru 16) were told they will have to go with us the first time out, then after that it's their choice (I even accounted for them in my GVW ... and without them ... ha).

After our maiden trip I'll see if air springs necessary, although I'm sure the first trip on the road I'll be like a grandmother in track shoes.

I'll post once we get some miles on it ...

Again, thanks to everyone

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Sweeeeeeet !!

We ran it unloaded (no water), with sway control, and it did pretty well.  Flat highway speeds of 60-65 in fith gear, rolling hills in forth, uphill in third.  I can see where a heavier tow vehicle would be better, but to be honest, the Borrego did really good without laboring and wind buffeting was not a white knuckle adventure.

But... the first time we took it out after delivery from the dealer was scary at best.  We started down the highway and it felt like it was on marbles.  The back end was all squishy and I was changing lanes without turning the steering wheel.  "Oh, cr@p !!!!"  After about two miles I was thinking it was all over.  No camping today and we'd have to get another bigger TV.  Back to the dealer to ask-see what was going on.  The TV weighs about 4900 lbs with passengers and the TT is only 3600 lbs.  something was way off or the whole camping experience wasn't gonna happen.

Well, to make a short story boring, the dealer added a "Link" to the weight distro hitch and tightened the sway control.  Back out we went and it was like night and day.  The borrego felt planted and solid.  No squishy's, no sway, I could exhale.

We're pretty happy with the setup and can't wait to go back out again (We cut our first trip short because of snow forcast and I haven't driven enough to drive snow yet)

Thanks everyone and maybe we'll see you out there.
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