E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER

The friendliest place on the web for anyone with an RV or an interest in RVing!
If you have answers, please help by responding to the unanswered posts.
KY-Rver said:
Help.
I have read about the caster settings and now here is my problem.  My E450 2006 model had slightly less than 1 degree of positive caster.  I have installed a 3-1/2 degree bushing which gives me slightly under 4-1/2 degree positive caster. Handling has much improved, however, still some road wandering. Does anyone know of any bushing that will give me more caster? I would like to get to at least 5-1/2 degrees. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

Ingalls 594 sleeves will allow you to get up to +5.3 to +5.5 Degrees CASTER by adding +2.0 degrees to the neutral +3.3 to +3.5 degrees. By neutral I am meaning the CASTER is at center of the range which is about +3.3 to +3.5 if you get my drift.
 
Hello All,

We just completed a round trip coast to coast trip in a 2009 E450 Winnebago Chalet. It was 6500 miles of really loose steering that reminded me of my first vehicle, a 1967 F100 pickup with worn out king pins that I learned on, and later a 1999 Expedition that I bought new I asked for help from Ford engineering with typical response, "they all do that", and both drove like Model A's. I am a helicopter pilot, so I know how to steer an unstable craft, but it is very taxing to drive a motor vehicle minute by minute for days on end with this kind of precision. I got used to driving the E450 as time went by, but I am ashamed of Ford and Winnebago for giving me all of my bad experiences. I am a stock holder in Ford by the way. If +5 caster is the solution, I will try it on the Expedition too, 12 years too late. It is way too late for the F100 sadly, but I think it gave me the ability to not over control my craft.

In addition, I think that my Class C could have used some rear air springs to help with ride control, it is very rigid and crisp, like a sports car that weighs 12,000 lbs. They are on order now. With a normal load of water and fuel, the rear is a little low too, the low beams are like brights. I hope this helps.
 
Harvard good info thanks for sharing. I have a 27' on an E450 that i bought about 6 months ago and i think it drives ok but one thing I noticed early on is the wheel seems slow to return to center. In and of itself that does not matter to me at all, it was just an observation. Then on our last trip we had a 25 to 30 mph headwind with a right to left force about 90% of the time, those occasional (10%) left to rights, were tricky. Every Rv I saw that day was having to pay attention.

So I was thinking about the slow to return to center thing after reading your post. Am I correct that increasing castor would help with this? Maybe it would help with windy days too. With the cost of the new bushings being so low it seems a good thing to do in any case.

P.S. I have no suspension mods and have a longish wheelbase 196" for the length.
 
dave61 said:
Harvard good info thanks for sharing. I have a 27' on an E450 that i bought about 6 months ago and i think it drives ok but one thing I noticed early on is the wheel seems slow to return to center. In and of itself that does not matter to me at all, it was just an observation. Then on our last trip we had a 25 to 30 mph headwind with a right to left force about 90% of the time, those occasional (10%) left to rights, were tricky. Every Rv I saw that day was having to pay attention.

So I was thinking about the slow to return to center thing after reading your post. Am I correct that increasing castor would help with this? Maybe it would help with windy days too. With the cost of the new bushings being so low it seems a good thing to do in any case.

P.S. I have no suspension mods and have a longish wheelbase 196" for the length.

Yes, more + CASTER will effect/improve "return to center" as well as the "straight ahead " stability at highway speeds.
 
Great post! This problem affects many other rigs. My truck is a miserable drive on the highway, due to factory specs that just don't get it right.
The good vs average alignment shop: The average shop sees a number in that factory range and they are done. " It's within specifications" they will say, and charge you and out the door.  A good shop will drive and see what is going on.
 
skyking1 said:
Great post! This problem affects many other rigs. My truck is a miserable drive on the highway, due to factory specs that just don't get it right.
The good vs average alignment shop: The average shop sees a number in that factory range and they are done. " It's within specifications" they will say, and charge you and out the door.  A good shop will drive and see what is going on.

You are soooo right....the "average" shop will tweak the toe and make sure the camber and caster look good on paper by fudging the print out. After all is said and done, an "average" tech doing 8 alignments a day looks good from the head office point of view.
 
Just got back from having the truck aligned with this post in mind.
It started out at 2.9 and 3.1
He tweaked it to 3.4 and 3.7
Could not do any more or the camber would be out of spec. It did help some.
I will be towing this weekend with it and will report back.
I have a kit on order to replace the steering shaft bushing with an improved system.
http://www.rocksolidramtrucksteering.com/
That is the last thing I can do.
 
Follow up to this topic:
I did not need the bushing shown above. I took the truck to Kimball's Alignment in Tacoma, as recommended by my tire shop. They send all the problem alignments there to be done by a real pro in the business.
He discovered a slightly loose pitman arm joint, and quoted me a price to do that and add as much caster as possible. I had more time than money and did the pitman arm myself. I noticed a change as I drove it to the shop, it was a little tighter. The new part also moved my wheel from aligned to about 11:30 when driving straight.
He corrected that, took the caster out to 4.5 on both sides before he ran out of adjustment. I drove it 500 miles yesterday and it is very much better! More caster does indeed help.
 
Hello.. Great Info Harvard,  Just want to Confirm that You used #59400 on an E450..  Ingall does not list this as a Valid part for an E450, only up to the E350..    thx!...jp
 
MinneFromMinne said:
Hello.. Great Info Harvard,  Just want to Confirm that You used #59400 on an E450..  Ingall does not list this as a Valid part for an E450, only up to the E350..    thx!...jp

Yes, my 2004 E450 has Ingall #59400 installed. I went for the max available +CASTER and just accepted the resulting camber.
 
OK, so I know this thread is all about some Ford Class Cs, and their squirreliness on the highway. My rig is on a Chevy, but I assume the setup is similar.

Well, my first 2 hour trip on the highway in my rig (see sig) was "unsettling" at best. My son and I just went for a weekend trip down to Tucson. We didn't pack much at all, and we didn't use the bathroom. I did have about 160 pounds stored back in the bathroom (used whiskey barrels), that I was delivering. The bathroom on my rig is all the way in the back, so all of that weight was behind the axle. On a more typical trip, I expect much of that weight to be located farther forward, as luggage. Still... 160 pounds shouldn't make that much of a difference...

Anyway, the trip down was seriously white knuckled. I would feel EVERY vehicle that passed - with the possible exception of motorcycles. Depending on how fast they passed, and how big a vehicle it was - the effect was amplified accordingly. I got passed by a few big rigs that were flying past - and it seriously pushed and pulled me around. I was tense and exhausted from this little short trip. I am seriously considering taking it to an alignment shop and getting some more positive caster dialed in. I talked with a few buddies in Tucson, and they said that most RVs that they drove had the same problems. I guess it is something that you have to get used to - but I am hoping that by having this work done, it will be a little more pleasurable to drive.

Will those same (or similar) sleeves work on a Chevy?


Mylo
 
First cheap repair; Check the tire pressures using only enough air to satisfy the load tables provided for your particular tire brand.
 
Alfa38User said:
First cheap repair; Check the tire pressures using only enough air to satisfy the load tables provided for your particular tire brand.

I sort of did that... Brand new tires. Discount said to run them at 80 fully loaded. I ran them at 70. I can't seem to find a load chart for Dunlop E rating...


Mylo
 
But.... did you weigh the vehicle so you know where you stand, at least partially anyway??? Not all manufacturers seem to publish charts it seems, especially for car/truck sizes.
 
Just purchased a '09 Sunseeker 2300 with only 15k miles on it. After front end alignment it was much better, but then came windy days. It would almost change lanes on its own, that was a exciting experience! Took it back to the truck shop and discussed +castor and Harvard's suggestion. Before I could finish, he rattled off the part number of the bushing needed.
I just picked up the unit last night - Unbelievable, fantastic, drives like and SUV.

Thank you Harvard! This information saved the day. We are going to Colorado in the Spring and there was no way I would have driven the unit the way it was. Thanks again Harvard and thanks Fleet Pride of So. Deerfield, MA.
 
Alfa38User said:
First cheap repair; Check the tire pressures using only enough air to satisfy the load tables provided for your particular tire brand.

So... from what I gathered, the rig originally came with D rated LT tires. The sticker on the driver jamb says 60 PSI. The previous owner told me that fully loaded to spec that I'd be at the upper end of the D rating, and should therefore get the E rated ones. Discount Tire filled them to 80 PSI. I can't seem to find tables for these new Dunlop E rated tires. I am assuming that 80 is the max they should be filled to, and that 70 will give me a little better ride, at the expense of a little load. I'm kinda flying blind here.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I have a Chevy G30 chassis. Ingall doesn't seem to make bushings for a Chevy. Any other suggestions?


Mylo
 
mylo said:
So... from what I gathered, the rig originally came with D rated LT tires. The sticker on the driver jamb says 60 PSI. The previous owner told me that fully loaded to spec that I'd be at the upper end of the D rating, and should therefore get the E rated ones. Discount Tire filled them to 80 PSI. I can't seem to find tables for these new Dunlop E rated tires. I am assuming that 80 is the max they should be filled to, and that 70 will give me a little better ride, at the expense of a little load. I'm kinda flying blind here.

Anyway, as I mentioned, I have a Chevy G30 chassis. Ingall doesn't seem to make bushings for a Chevy. Any other suggestions?


Mylo

You need to consult an alignment shop, your Chevy most likely has a means of adjusting caster. These Ingall bushings are just a Ford E350/E450 means of adjusting CASTER and CAMBER.


For example: http://www.streetperformance.com/auto/chevrolet-g30/alignment-castercamber-kit/47-450-5549mmc/
 
skyking1 said:
Great post! This problem affects many other rigs. My truck is a miserable drive on the highway, due to factory specs that just don't get it right.
The good vs average alignment shop: The average shop sees a number in that factory range and they are done. " It's within specifications" they will say, and charge you and out the door.  A good shop will drive and see what is going on.

I may have stumbled across a possible reason why some alignment shops end up with what I think is too little +Caster. It appears some shops may adjust the adjustable parameter to be in the middle of the specified range, as is noted in this link:

http://www.rvforum.net/miscfiles/MH_Steering_Handling_%20Primer.pdf

"Each chassis will have detailed specs for these three things and it is crucial that they all be as close as possible to dead center on the target numbers."

To me, that certainly makes sense for Camber and Toe but I am not so sure it should apply to +Caster. IMHO.
 

Forum statistics

Threads
131,753
Posts
1,384,361
Members
137,524
Latest member
freetoroam
Back
Top Bottom