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Author Topic: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER  (Read 78326 times)

rebar

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2015, 02:47:23 PM »
Thanks.

When searching INGALLS 594,   Specialty Products SPC794 part # 24180 $24.26,   Spicer 6122025 $22.08,   NAPA NCP 264-3950 $36.71,   and Superlift SLF-1120 $34.95.  and napa NCP 2641988 I found the NCP 2641988 was only one piece.. 

http://www.napaonline.com/Catalog/CatalogItemDetail.aspx?R=NCP2641988_0161964863

Does my stock 95 E350 have the second sleeve already installed?
1995 E350 6bt/nv4500, 2006 Featherlite 24' surv toyhauler, 2007 DRZ400s well farkled, 1985 Vmax stock, 1985 Vmax custom

Harvard

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #61 on: April 11, 2015, 09:33:23 AM »
As far as I know, these sleeves are either one piece for a fixed camber and caster setting OR two concentric sleeves for adjustable camber and caster settings.

Also, as far as I know, SPC794 (SPC PN 24180) are the equivalent to Ingalls 594s.

Pay particular to your final caster settings, left to the technicians judgement he may just assume to set the caster at mid range instead as far +caster as it can be set.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2015, 09:47:01 AM by Harvard »

rebar

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #62 on: April 13, 2015, 12:20:02 PM »
Thanks Howard..

I'm now looking at the Spicer 6122025   or Spicer 612-2025 to save a few dollars..  Are they also the equivalent to Ingalls 594s?

Mike
1995 E350 6bt/nv4500, 2006 Featherlite 24' surv toyhauler, 2007 DRZ400s well farkled, 1985 Vmax stock, 1985 Vmax custom

Harvard

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #63 on: April 13, 2015, 04:54:23 PM »
Thanks Howard..

I'm now looking at the Spicer 6122025   or Spicer 612-2025 to save a few dollars..  Are they also the equivalent to Ingalls 594s?

Mike

Yes, it looks to be suitable for the Ford E Series, it cross checks as a Raybestos 6122025

https://www.rockauto.com/catalog/raframecatalog.php?a=Search%2Bfor%2BRAYBESTOS%2B6122025&catalog=95&partnum=6122025&ck[ID]=0&ck[idlist]=0&ck[viewcurrency]=CAD&ck[PHP_SESSION_ID]=r54ohf0p86b129brblop6is1m0

rebar

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #64 on: June 05, 2015, 05:14:42 PM »
Adding the caster worked great Harvard.  The van steers better the faster you go practically.

Only problem Iv found is a pop, or clunk, when backing up with wheels turned hard to the right.  Like when I back out of a driveway.

Anyway, Ill take care of that I hope and just wanted to thank you for the information you've provided here. 

1995 E350 6bt/nv4500, 2006 Featherlite 24' surv toyhauler, 2007 DRZ400s well farkled, 1985 Vmax stock, 1985 Vmax custom

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #65 on: June 05, 2015, 08:11:23 PM »
and thank you rebar for reviving this thread.
I have an appointment at josams to get my alignment checked next week.  It was good for me to refresh on this recommendation of +5 degrees or more, so that I can discuss this with the folks there.
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

rebelsun

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  • Don't confuse kindness for weakness
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #66 on: June 05, 2015, 08:55:04 PM »
I can't speak specifically to the Ford E chassis, but I just replaced the two front tires and shocks on my 15 going on 16 year old Chevy 3500, Econoline chassis equivalent.
The tire guy, who is also a friend, told and showed me what the problem was on my particular RV, and something that is common with modified factory chassis of all manufacturers according to him. The way it was explained to me, made sense.
The open chassis which the "house" was built on, was modified by the RV manufacturer, by extending the chassis rearward, and a heavy "house" built on top of it.  This changed the factory design in weight, height, length, and width.
As the modified vehicle and "house" go down the road as an RV, the front end has a tendency to "bounce" more than it is designed to do, as a factory designed van chassis would, and as such, it tends to wear the tires unevenly as they spin....chop....chop....chop, rather than a smooth revolution, and the tires wearing evenly, as they maintain constant contact with the pavement as they spin.
I would also suspect this would also effect handling problems, as the bounce and chop of the front end causes the front tires to maintain uneven contact with the road as they rotate and spin.
Riding the Highway through Hell in our 2000 Chevy 3500 Gulfstream Class C, with a
Honda Shadow AERO motorcycle and trailer in tow.
From: Boston, Ma.
Retired and living in Palm Bay, Fl.

Handyman

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #67 on: June 06, 2015, 11:14:02 AM »
Hello,

Reading this thread, makes it all clear to me.....

We made last year in June and this year in Mai a tour of about 3500 and 3840 miles, with rental motorhomes, a 26 type C from Road Bear and a C25, factorynew one from Cruise America. Last trip was from Chicago to SF. Both were C350 Ford's.

And since we, as Europeans, are used to the stability of our own MH, a Fiat with AL-KO chassis, I was astonished about the very bad handling ... And even more this year, since we passed the north of Texas, during those bad weather period. I was realy steering all the time. Checked even, several times if there wasn't any visible problem with the tyres, airpressure or axle .... Pfffff .... Even thought a brief moment perhaps there must be bolts, not thightend enough .... Heavy winds made driving almost a terrifying experience!

But we still enjoyed our trip and stay in your wonderfull, beautifull country!
Thanks also for the hospitality and friendliness people showed us.

Bye, Danil
« Last Edit: June 06, 2015, 11:15:40 AM by Handyman »
Danil and Marjon, and our labrador Doortje
_____________________
Always remember, the World is full of nice people ....
So, if you can't find one, be one !

Hymer Tramp T698CL - MH

rebar

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #68 on: June 07, 2015, 10:02:41 AM »
Only problem Iv found is a pop, or clunk, when backing up with wheels turned hard to the right.  Like when I back out of a driveway.

I figured out what the noise was.  My over sized tires now rub the body even though they didn't before.  Did adding caster move the wheels back?
1995 E350 6bt/nv4500, 2006 Featherlite 24' surv toyhauler, 2007 DRZ400s well farkled, 1985 Vmax stock, 1985 Vmax custom

Harvard

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #69 on: June 07, 2015, 11:59:46 AM »
I figured out what the noise was.  My over sized tires now rub the body even though they didn't before.  Did adding caster move the wheels back?

A change in caster shows up as changes in camber when the steering wheel is turned away from center.

With an increase in +caster the outside wheel will have more NEGATIVE CAMBER while the inside wheel will have more POSITIVE CAMBER.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28154264.cfm

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #70 on: June 12, 2015, 12:24:03 PM »
I'm at Josam now.  Looking forward to seeing what it is, and what they come up with.
I mentioned this idea to the tech..... of shooting for +5 degrees or more of caster
He said most often these things have too much negative camber, and toe is out..... He says he uses up the bushing to get the camber in... whatever that means. 

I can't quite wrap my head around it.

We'll see..... at least these folks are supposed to be the experts so I'm hopeful it will be at least no worse than it was......
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

rebar

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #71 on: June 12, 2015, 01:10:45 PM »
A change in caster shows up as changes in camber when the steering wheel is turned away from center.

With an increase in +caster the outside wheel will have more NEGATIVE CAMBER while the inside wheel will have more POSITIVE CAMBER.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28154264.cfm

What Harvard said..

I fixed my rubbing wheels with a rubber hammer.
1995 E350 6bt/nv4500, 2006 Featherlite 24' surv toyhauler, 2007 DRZ400s well farkled, 1985 Vmax stock, 1985 Vmax custom

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #72 on: June 13, 2015, 04:50:46 AM »
ok, here are my before .....
                      Left          Right
Camber         +1              +3.5
Caster            +3.25         +3.15
Toe Out                   -2.6

and after numbers
                      Left          Right
Camber         +3.0             +3.5
Caster            +2.45         +3.15
Toe In                   +2.2

I only drove it a short distance after, maybe 20 miles to a campground but I did get it up on the interstate to speed, and it was very windy with an approaching black and ominous cloud thunder boomer.
My impression that it did drive much better..... but I didn't feel that it was all that bad before.
The wind didn't seem to make such a fight and I thing the bump steering was reduced (having to fight against bumps in the road)

I did have a conversation with the tech and manager together, at Josam after he had completed the work.
He said that it's a bit "sticky", meaning that when coming out of a turn, the steering wheel should want to return to center if released, but mine tended to stick off center...... he said that's common with these Fords.

He also commented that 5 degree casters are more of a thing with Chevy chassis.....

It seems like a couple different philosophies in alignment here.....

I didn't get my 5 degrees of caster that I had hoped after reading this thread, but based on my 20 miles, I think I'm happy.

Interested in your comments and thoughts about these numbers

« Last Edit: June 13, 2015, 05:03:28 AM by blw2 »
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

Harvard

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #73 on: June 13, 2015, 09:16:00 AM »
ok, here are my before .....
                      Left          Right
Camber         +1              +3.5
Caster            +3.25         +3.15
Toe Out                   -2.6

and after numbers
                      Left          Right
Camber         +3.0             +3.5
Caster            +2.45         +3.15
Toe In                   +2.2

I only drove it a short distance after, maybe 20 miles to a campground but I did get it up on the interstate to speed, and it was very windy with an approaching black and ominous cloud thunder boomer.
My impression that it did drive much better..... but I didn't feel that it was all that bad before.
The wind didn't seem to make such a fight and I thing the bump steering was reduced (having to fight against bumps in the road)

I did have a conversation with the tech and manager together, at Josam after he had completed the work.
He said that it's a bit "sticky", meaning that when coming out of a turn, the steering wheel should want to return to center if released, but mine tended to stick off center...... he said that's common with these Fords.

He also commented that 5 degree casters are more of a thing with Chevy chassis.....

It seems like a couple different philosophies in alignment here.....

I didn't get my 5 degrees of caster that I had hoped after reading this thread, but based on my 20 miles, I think I'm happy.

Interested in your comments and thoughts about these numbers

The camber and toe are way out of spec AND you did not get the +5.0 or more of +caster which defeats the whole purpose of the exercise. Sorry to bear bad news.

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #74 on: June 13, 2015, 11:45:51 AM »
I've gotta believe that they would put it into spec.....
So what is the factory spec range for camber and tow?

I understand that it's not the 5 degrees... but initial observations based on test drive in very windy storm conditions don't point to it being bad news at all......  I'll know better tomorrow after a longer drive though.

Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #75 on: June 13, 2015, 12:47:26 PM »
I wasn't successful finding the specs for the 2013 model to see if they're different than the 2004 model numbers harvard posted earlier.....
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

rebar

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #76 on: June 13, 2015, 01:05:07 PM »
I wasn't successful finding the specs for the 2013 model to see if they're different than the 2004 model numbers harvard posted earlier.....

If you asked for 5 degrees or more, I'd take it back.   You have less caster than before !

I made sure I talked to the mechanic and handed him the parts with those instructions. 
1995 E350 6bt/nv4500, 2006 Featherlite 24' surv toyhauler, 2007 DRZ400s well farkled, 1985 Vmax stock, 1985 Vmax custom

Harvard

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #77 on: June 13, 2015, 02:58:22 PM »
I wasn't successful finding the specs for the 2013 model to see if they're different than the 2004 model numbers harvard posted earlier.....

The specifications are all very much the same ball park. Here is a published range for the 2008 thru 2012 E350/E450.

LEFT    Camber -0.3 Degrees thru +1.3 Degrees
RIGHT Camber -0.3 Degrees thru +1.3 Degrees

LEFT    Caster +1.0 Degrees thru +6.8 Degrees
RIGHT Caster +1.4 Degrees thru +7.2 Degrees.
Cross   Caster -1.2 Degrees thru +0.4 Degrees

LEFT    Toe -0.1 Degrees thru +0.16 Degrees
RIGHT Toe -0.1 Degrees thru +0.16 Degrees
Total   Toe -0.19 Degrees thru +0.31 Degrees

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #78 on: June 14, 2015, 07:02:19 AM »
Interesting, thanks Harvard.
I think I'll try to find time to call Josam on Monday to see what they say about it.....
I'll be driving 2-1/2 hours home today so a much better road test to report on soon

I can't believe they would set the tow, especially, that far out of spec.....
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

blw2

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #79 on: June 14, 2015, 07:15:11 PM »
ok, here are my before .....
                      Left          Right
Camber         +1              +3.5
Caster            +3.25         +3.15
Toe Out                   -2.6

and after numbers
                      Left          Right
Camber         +3.0             +3.5
Caster            +2.45         +3.15
Toe In                   +2.2

I only drove it a short distance after, maybe 20 miles to a campground but I did get it up on the interstate to speed, and it was very windy with an approaching black and ominous cloud thunder boomer.
My impression that it did drive much better..... but I didn't feel that it was all that bad before.
The wind didn't seem to make such a fight and I thing the bump steering was reduced (having to fight against bumps in the road)

I did have a conversation with the tech and manager together, at Josam after he had completed the work.
He said that it's a bit "sticky", meaning that when coming out of a turn, the steering wheel should want to return to center if released, but mine tended to stick off center...... he said that's common with these Fords.

He also commented that 5 degree casters are more of a thing with Chevy chassis.....

It seems like a couple different philosophies in alignment here.....

I didn't get my 5 degrees of caster that I had hoped after reading this thread, but based on my 20 miles, I think I'm happy.

Interested in your comments and thoughts about these numbers

So a better road test today.
I would say it's a marked improvement.
It was breezy enough to wave flags, and it drove much better.
Still a bit of a centering problem, so not perfect.... it's not a mini-van..... but I'd think I'm happy.
I also noticed far less correction needed with passing semis
I'm still wondering about this out of spec question, but I think they did good based on driving....

The folks at josam had suggested that if I still wasn't happy after the alignment I should look into the safe-t-plus stabilizer.  I'm not convinced I need it, but assuming that my alignment isn't no so far out of spec, then I might look into that, only so my wife might be more comfortable with it....
Brad (DW + 3 kids)
13 Thor Chateau 31L Class C on Ford E-450
'06 Silverado
'05 Rockwood Freedom 1910 (5-1/2 years)
former tent campers

bluesman4life

  • Posts: 2
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #80 on: September 08, 2015, 09:26:37 PM »
Hello Harvard, I am interested in using the INGALLS 594 Camber/Caster sleeves on my 1999 Winnebago Minnie 22 ft. motorhome. I just added a heavy duty Hellwig sway bar and new Bilstein shocks but still think I need to add caster as you have suggested to give me "straight down the road" handling. My only question is that how can I achieve a +5.0 caster if the Ingalls cheat sheet shows a maximum setting of 2.5 ?  Thanks!

Harvard

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #81 on: September 09, 2015, 08:14:02 AM »
Hello Harvard, I am interested in using the INGALLS 594 Camber/Caster sleeves on my 1999 Winnebago Minnie 22 ft. motorhome. I just added a heavy duty Hellwig sway bar and new Bilstein shocks but still think I need to add caster as you have suggested to give me "straight down the road" handling. My only question is that how can I achieve a +5.0 caster if the Ingalls cheat sheet shows a maximum setting of 2.5 ?  Thanks!

With the Ingalls set at 0.0 degrees the actual caster is running at about +3.5 degrees (RH neutral setting). Then when you add +2.0 with the Ingalls you have a total of +5.5 degrees.

Note: Because you have stated +2.5 as the max I think you are on the wrong chart. For the E350/450, as I recall, the max is +/- 2.0.

bluesman4life

  • Posts: 2
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #82 on: September 09, 2015, 05:35:49 PM »
Thanks Harvard, now I understand how the adjustable sleeves work. You are right, I was on the wrong chart.  Sure do appreciate all the help on here with this. Once I read your posts on this topic I was delighted to find another possible fix to my motorhome wandering problem.  I will be putting in the sleeves on the 19th. I am fortunate because my brother is a master mechanic with Ford and we will be doing the work in the shop together. Then I will be making a trip from Canton, Ohio to Buffalo, NY.  I will post the results. Thanks again!

Quadtrax

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #83 on: September 15, 2015, 12:50:49 PM »
Hey, great thread.  I just bought a 2016 with the E-450 chassis.   This thing is trying to drive me, not me drive it.  So after reading this thread I took my new RV to a truck service center, because it is all that is around here, who does RV's.  The front end guy drove it and said, oh it drives like a RV.  After a 30 min phone call with the manager and front end guy, they said sure we can try the +2 caster but it is going to wear your tires faster.  I said, "Who cares about the tires I'm trying not to drive in the ditches".

Now that the story has gone on forever, my question is: Do I have to change the bushing to get to +5 or can it be done with the factory one?

Harvard

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  • Posts: 143
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #84 on: September 15, 2015, 01:02:46 PM »
Hey, great thread.  I just bought a 2016 with the E-450 chassis.   This thing is trying to drive me, not me drive it.  So after reading this thread I took my new RV to a truck service center, because it is all that is around here, who does RV's.  The front end guy drove it and said, oh it drives like a RV.  After a 30 min phone call with the manager and front end guy, they said sure we can try the +2 caster but it is going to wear your tires faster.  I said, "Who cares about the tires I'm trying not to drive in the ditches".

Now that the story has gone on forever, my question is: Do I have to change the bushing to get to +5 or can it be done with the factory one?

I have driven my unit about 36,000 miles since adding the +2.0 caster and I can tell you from experience it does not cause additional tire wear.

No you cannot get +5 from factory configurations unless the body builder has already changed out your sleeves.

Quadtrax

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Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #85 on: September 16, 2015, 08:52:38 AM »
Harvard, you are my new BFF ... Picked up my RV last night and let me tell you, this thing drives 100% better.  Yes the wind still blows me around but it doesn't take two hands and a foot to keep it on the road.  This is how I expect a RV to drive.

Look out America, team Quadtrax is on the road!!!

Harvard

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  • Posts: 143
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #86 on: September 16, 2015, 10:13:56 AM »
Harvard, you are my new BFF ... Picked up my RV last night and let me tell you, this thing drives 100% better.  Yes the wind still blows me around but it doesn't take two hands and a foot to keep it on the road.  This is how I expect a RV to drive.

Look out America, team Quadtrax is on the road!!!

Be sure to give some feedback to the alignment shop. It may help the next E series owner when they come looking to that business for a solution to their handling issues.

joe lamb

  • Posts: 1
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #87 on: November 04, 2015, 06:44:59 PM »
Just took my 2000 e22 Minnie on my first 900 mile trip and I was worn totally out after the drive .
I will take your advice soon and put in the most caster I can . Back in the 70's I did wheel alignments on a fleet of Highway Patrol Dodge Monacos . These cars LOVED caster at 145 mph . My fellow mechanics
would not do the caster over spec , but I would and all the drivers got the message and wanted me to do there alignments . Caster , caster , caster ...........Joe

sonny1948

  • Posts: 1
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #88 on: January 12, 2016, 03:31:44 PM »
Howdy folks.....does anyone know if this caster stuff will work on a 2014 E450? If so are the part numbers the same?
TIA

Harvard

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  • Posts: 143
Re: E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER
« Reply #89 on: January 12, 2016, 09:38:12 PM »
Howdy folks.....does anyone know if this caster stuff will work on a 2014 E450? If so are the part numbers the same?
TIA

Here is a link to a 2007 front end being upgraded to a 2014 front end complete with +caster alignment.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28663457.cfm

 

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