E350/E450 Handling Problems are caused by too little + CASTER

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Something to report about the 3rd chart (for E350/E450) on the cheat sheet for the Ingalls 594 sleeves. http://www.ingallseng.com/Instructions/59400.pdf

1. Driver Side Caster at +1.0 and Camber at -1.5 reads B/K, it should read K/B.

and

2. Drivers Side Caster at -1.25 the Camber at -1.0 and -0.25, they both read T/A. The Camber at -1.0 should read H/R instead of T/A.

Harvard.
 
I have a 2004 E350 Superduty that I usually drive empty. I load it up and pull a trailer twice a year to go camping. I never noticed any shimmy for the first 140K miles. In winter I switch to Firestone Winterforce studded snow tires, which are lower load rated tires, and I assume lighter weight than 2,600 lb tires. The factory tires were Michelin, which I replaced at 140K miles. That was when my problems started. Before that, there was no noticeable shimmy with the Michelins or the lighter load rated studded Firestone snow tires. I got Dunlop Rovers to replace the worn out Michelins, then had shimmy problems. Replaced lower ball joints, all the tie rod ends, did the road force balance according to TSB 05-24-8, installed hydraulic steering shimmy damper, replaced I-beam pivot bushings, sway bar end bushings (which help tie the I-beams together through the sway bar), got new aftermarket wheels with new Hancook tires, added Centramatic balancers, then recently replaced all the ball joints at the same time. For two years this was a problem with the summer high load range tires, not with the Firestone snow tires.

Increasing the caster made the problem go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Do not pay attention to anyone who posts "too much caster causes shimmy" or that there is a Ford truck TSB that says to decrease caster to eliminate shimmy.

I do not know what the alignment was set at for most of this time because the mechanic set the caster bushings with the slots toward the inside when replacing the ball joints, which was just recently at 195K miles. The bushings that were in it were 1-1/2 degree bushings and with the slots to the inside the caster is set to the middle of the range and camber is the most negative. A Firestone shop measured the alignment with this setting and it was like this:
left caster  2.2      left camber    -.5
right caster 3.4      right camber -1.2

I told them to adjust the caster to as high as it could go while keeping the camber within spec and they said the factory original bushings are not adjustable and wanted to sell me bushing-in-bushing kits with the numbers on them for several hundred dollars. So I had to adjust the nonadjustable bushings myself.

I went home and set the left one for the most caster it would do, with the slot facing back and drove it for a week while I ordered new bushings. That made it like this and it still shimmied:
left caster  3.7      left camber    1
right caster 3.4      right camber -1.2

I got a 3-1/2 bushing for the left and a 2-1/2 for the right from NAPA, Moog bushings for about $20 each.
Now it is at:
left caster  5.7      left camber    .7
right caster 5.9      right camber .7
Shimmy is gone and with nearly equal caster on each side it goes straight. I guess the factory setup is to have 1/2 degree less caster on the driver's side so that it pulls left to counter road crown on a two lane road. Most of my driving is on the highway in the left lane so the crown is to my right. The bushing replacement is easy, but you need to have an alignment first and keep track of the angle of the bushing that is installed so you can adjust from there.

Thanks Harvard for starting this post. Now I love my van again. 195K miles, alternator just went, and #7 spark plug boot have been the only problems other than this shimmy after replacing the factory tires.
 
Thomastonct:
Increasing the caster made the problem go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Do not pay attention to anyone who posts "too much caster causes shimmy" or that there is a Ford truck TSB that says to decrease caster to eliminate shimmy.

Almost every one has had a bad experience with the caster wheels on a shopping cart, right?  We all know that as "shimmy".

Well, it turns out that the shopping cart caster wheel has a "Caster Trail" only, it has no "Caster Angle".

Our vehicles have both, a "Caster Angle" which creates a "Caster Trail". The "Caster Trail" is the distance from where the "pivot point" protrudes to the floor/road to the point that the wheel patch makes contact with the floor/road.

Having both a "Caster Angle" and a "Caster Trail" creates two stabilizing forces. The Caster Angle causes the vehicle to be lifted when the wheel is turned R or L from center so it is the weight of the vehicle that serves as a "spring" to return the steering to center.

Then force number 2 is a force that increases as speed/velocity increases. This 2nd force is the Caster Trail that wants the wheel patch to drag behind the pivot point just as a "wind vane" always points into the wind.

Edit: Fixed quote tags.


 
OP here. One of our forum member just had a very bad $$$ experience with the parts and logic required for this alignment.

First, be very suspicious of parts that indicate an adjustment range of 0 to 4 degrees. The only part I have personal experience with is the Ingalls 59400 (AKA Ingalls 594). As best as I can determine (NO PERSONAL EXPERIENCE) the NAPA part number is NCP 2641988. These both indicate an adjustment range of +/- 2.0 degrees.

Secondly, if you find that your RV CASTER is ALREADY above +5.0 then DO NOT ORDER ANY PARTS, they will not help you beyond where you are now sitting !!!!

Thirdly, the CROSS CASTER = LH - RH should be in the range of -1.5 to +0.5 with a mean value of about -0.5 degrees.


Harvard.
 
OP here.

Another possibility that may be playing a part to the mystries as to what might work and what might not work.  To this end, the front axel weight may be playing a role.

For the record, the 2004 E450 that I  have weighs in about 4400# (max 4600#) and that is with with 2 occupants, 35 gallons of water and 55 gallons of fuel ALL AFT of the rear axel. My toad is 4 down so it does not have a weight effect.
 
we have a 99 club van E 350 and a 88 cabriolet E350 that we use for towing the race cars.
Both handle terribly, wonder all over the place. The 99 more than the 88.
All new parts and aligned by supposedly good shop (?)...twice and my suggestion about more caster was laughed at. In my drag race days we learned the value of caster!!!
We tried to move the race cars back on the trailer to lose tongue weight to no avail. I see that the kit INGALLS 594 Camber/Caster sleeves will work on the 99 but what do I do for the 88?
thanks
jim
Patelli motor sports
[email protected]
 
thomastonct said:
Increasing the caster made the problem go away!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Do not pay attention to anyone who posts "too much caster causes shimmy" or that there is a Ford truck TSB that says to decrease caster to eliminate shimmy.

OP here, and on the topic of caster I would prefer to be the first to present an opposing view:

Here is a link to a tire authority who proclaims, "Some vehicle manufacturer's specify a lot of caster. My experience is that this sometimes makes the car prone to shimmy problems".
http://www.barrystiretech.com/alignmentrecommendation.html

In addition to the Class C E450, I own and drive an additional 3 vehicles. The 1996 Jeep Cherokee that has +5.5 caster, a 2007 Civic is +6.8 and a 2010 RAV4 has +5 Degrees.

Some how I have to believe in the "law of the jungle". The law of the jungle states that "if I as a poster start a thread such as I have done here, and someone has a bad experience with the advice, then it would be only fair to the jungle that said thread be bombbarded with the details of the said bad experience". To date this thread has received just about 11,000 hits and so far no one has reported a negative experience with the suggested caster settings.
 
Harvard,
I  picked up my new 2014 Winnebago Aspect 32J last month in January.  I'm loading it up for a cross country trip the end of March (VA to WA).  I have read all your threads regarding alignment with great interest.  I checked out the Ingalls 594 to purchase before my appointment w/ the alignment shop.  Ingalls doesn't indicate that the 594 will work w/ a 2013 E450.....thoughts?  Thanks much!  Laura
 
Lcstanl said:
Harvard,
I  picked up my new 2014 Winnebago Aspect 32J last month in January.  I'm loading it up for a cross country trip the end of March (VA to WA).  I have read all your threads regarding alignment with great interest.  I checked out the Ingalls 594 to purchase before my appointment w/ the alignment shop.  Ingalls doesn't indicate that the 594 will work w/ a 2013 E450.....thoughts?  Thanks much!  Laura

Since the documentation I have (59400.pdf) only mentions 1992 to 1998 E350 Vans and I know they work on my 2004 E450 my best guess they are still relevant for current model years.

If you were able to post a picture of the top of the upper ball joint I might be able to be more certain. No need to remove the wheel and it might be easier to crank the steering to full left to help get a better view of the drivers side top of the upper ball joint.

 
We now have it on good authority that Hendersons' Lineup of Grants Pass OR routinely set the E350/E450 Caster to 5 Degrees.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/27746515/srt/pa/pging/1/page/1.cfm

See the post by j-d 06/03/14 06:02am, Quote:

"But I have personally been to The Mountain. Visited the Mecca of RV suspension tuning. Hendersons' Line-Up in Grants Pass OR a couple weeks ago. I mentioned Harvard's 5* caster and John said "Sure. I worked in the shop 25 years and did lots of alignments. That's what we do." That settles the debate far as I'm concerned."
 
Lcstanl said:
Harvard,
I  picked up my new 2014 Winnebago Aspect 32J last month in January.  I'm loading it up for a cross country trip the end of March (VA to WA).  I have read all your threads regarding alignment with great interest.  I checked out the Ingalls 594 to purchase before my appointment w/ the alignment shop.  Ingalls doesn't indicate that the 594 will work w/ a 2013 E450.....thoughts?  Thanks much!  Laura

I have just learned of the SPC794 (SPC PN 24180) which is equivalent to the Ingalls 594. Page 2 Chart #3 of the SPC794 instruction sheet states "1992-2012 E250, E350 and E450 2WD".  In all likelihood the document was printed before 2013s were on the market. Chart #3 also confirms an adjustment range of -2.0 to +2.0  and NOT the -2.5 to +2.5 adjustment range of Chart #1.

I also would like to reiterate, my 2004 E450 has rear airbags that I set to 80PSI that give my MH a nose down attitude. My front axel is about 4300# and my rear axel is about 8825#. The airbags also serve to prevent any sway problems that could possibly mask symptoms that I am not aware of and there for have no experience.
 
Hi,
I've got a 1991 7.3 Diesel E350 based Born Free 24' RB and it drives like a camel on stilts!

I've read everything on here and elsewhere and have come to the conclusion that I want to increase Caster. I have bought the Ingalls 59400 bushes but they do not have instructions that relate to my vehicle.

I do not seem to have pinch bolts, what holds the bushes in place and stops them twisting round at random?

On all the charts max caster without altering camber shows M over G so I have lined up M with the slot in the outer bush, the bushes are identical and it would appear that M should be to the front of the vehicle in order to increase caster without affecting camber on both sides of the vehicle. What is the relevance of G? On the drivers side G would be to the right ie inboard and on the passengers side also to the right ie outboard.

Any help gratefully received.
 
First timer on RV forum. Fairly new RVer. And know nothing about cars. Was researching front end and alignment issues on E350 and found that e350s are known to be a bit squirrelly and heard everything from "find good alignment shop" to "save your troubles and go for the Ingalls 594 first." Wanted to hear y'all's opinion.  My 2003 BT Cruiser began pulling to left and shimmied at about 60. Yesterday, a reputable alignment shop said I needed to replace upper and lower ball joints and inner and outer tie rods. W balance and alignment, it's $1515. They did say and showed me the movement of the ball joints and said there was quite a bit of movement and that is causing the shimmying and that it was unsafe. My question is "do you think it's likely if I replace ball joints and tie rods and balance and align that I will still have shimmying and veering issues?" Also "do you think I should order the Ingals 594 and have them install that first to see if that does the trick" Finally, "if there is movement in the ball joint, is it really unsafe and something to fix ASAP?" Thanks!
 
Clwood, your post may have been better if you started a new thread, this one is a little old. It is hard to say about the wear and how severe it might be but the symptoms you have do seem consistent. You could always take it to another shop to get another opinion.

I have a similar unit and have no problems and in fact, have always thought it drove very well. We get pushed around on windy days but most everybody does.
 
Harvard said:
Yes, I also have the same suspension, and so does every E350/E450. The top mount of your upper ball joints are shipped from the factory with fixed non adjustable sleeves that need to be replaced.

In my opinion, your best choice in adjustable sleeves are from Ingalls Engineering. They are clearly marked as INGALLS 594. They consist of two concentric sleeves that have 360/24 = 15 degrees indices labeled A through X. In order to set them you need a "cheat" sheet which is on the web as "59400.pdf". These sleeves will allow adjustment of both CAMBER and CASTER up to +/- 2.0 degrees each, in any combination of CASTER or CAMBER. All you need to do is, using the cheat sheet, is take the max adjustable + CASTER change which is +2.0 any you will see a black and white improvement.

Pre 1992 E350's inc my 1991 E350 'DO NOT HAVE BALL JOINTS' they have king pins and the INGALLS 59400 bushing can not be fitted. I have yet to find someone in the UK able to adjust the caster on my RV.
 
bryansshort said:
Hi,
I've got a 1991 7.3 Diesel E350 based Born Free 24' RB and it drives like a camel on stilts!

I've read everything on here and elsewhere and have come to the conclusion that I want to increase Caster. I have bought the Ingalls 59400 bushes but they do not have instructions that relate to my vehicle.

I do not seem to have pinch bolts, what holds the bushes in place and stops them twisting round at random?

On all the charts max caster without altering camber shows M over G so I have lined up M with the slot in the outer bush, the bushes are identical and it would appear that M should be to the front of the vehicle in order to increase caster without affecting camber on both sides of the vehicle. What is the relevance of G? On the drivers side G would be to the right ie inboard and on the passengers side also to the right ie outboard.

Any help gratefully received.

In the pictures of the Drivers Side is M over G where M is at the rear and G is at the Pinch Bolt.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/pb20091018/DriverSide.jpg

In the picture of the Passengers Side is M over S where M is also at the rear and S is at the Pinch Bolt.
http://i685.photobucket.com/albums/vv215/pb20091018/PassengerSide.jpg

If you consider both pictures at the same time, you will notice on both sides of the vehicle the sleeves are orientated in the same direction. On both sides, M points to the rear of the vehicle while G (on both sides) points to the Drivers Side and S (on both sides) points to the Passenger Side.


 
Here is a link to a method used to estimate the caster of a vehicle using a digital camera.

http://www.rv.net/forum/index.cfm/fuseaction/thread/tid/28154264.cfm

The secret to using the camera are:

1. Line the lens up with the outside side of the wheel.
2. The camera is to be as parallel as possible to the vehicle. The vehicle need not be level but the skew between the camera and the vehicle needs to be a close to zero as possible.

 
This is a great thread.  I imagine if all econoline owners knew the cure, the roads would be safer..

I found a alignment shop who is familiar with, and willing to install the INGALLS 594

What if my ball joints is worn?  Will the kit help?    I assume the installer might say I need to replace them as well after getting the van on the lift..

Thanks!
 
The Ingnalls 594 sleeves do not replace the ball joints, they are concentric sleeves that provide the anchor for the top of the upper ball joint.

By increasing the caster it ONLY FEELS AS THOUGH you have tightened up the steering box to reduce the steering center free play area.
 
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