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Author Topic: Fulltiming insurance costs  (Read 11221 times)

Mick & Pat

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Fulltiming insurance costs
« on: March 07, 2011, 06:20:29 AM »
We appear to be dead in the water with this topic so may i ask the first I hope of many questions?

Would a full timer in the US or Canada pay more, about the same or less than someone with identical rig and details?  If there is a difference can you say why?

Thanks Mick

Tom, In the UK forum I have mention to the members that before asking any questions they visit the excellent library and the full timing section so not duplicating questions  :)
Edit: Added link to prior topic.
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 06:43:18 AM by Tom »
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

UK couple who toured USA / Canada. Oct 2007 - Aug 2009

2005 Fleetwood Discovery 39S,Cat C7, Freightliner XC Chassis  2008 Jeep Liberty Ltd 3.7 .

Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #1 on: March 07, 2011, 07:03:39 AM »
I'll let the fulltimers give a more comprehensive reply, but we might want to clarify that there are 3 (or maybe more) categories of insurance for RVers:

  • Insurance for the RV. Most insurance companies assume an RV is being used for up to 6 months a year, and fulltimers have reported paying a higher premium.
  • Liability insurance. Most folks with a stick (or brick & mortar) house carry this coverage as part of their homeowners insurance. Fulltimers have reported buying separate liability insurance.
  • Medical insurance. It has been reported that Canadians have different rules/requirements. See here for an example.
Using the Search button in the toolbar above will find a number of prior discussions on the subject of "fulltiming insurance"; Also try "fulltimers insurance".

What are the equivalent coverages in the UK?
« Last Edit: March 07, 2011, 07:40:06 AM by Tom »
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #2 on: March 07, 2011, 09:26:54 AM »
So back to the insurance question: what kind of insurance does the UK broker offer in the "fulltimer" package? Presumably something above and beyond whatever motor vehicle insurance may be mandatory in the UK?  A motorhome owner would want to have fire, theft and comprehensive insurance on the coach and its contents and I'm under the impression that is commonly available in the UK. Is there some limitation in the usual policy that makes it inadequate for fulltime RVers?

An issue in the US that may apply to the UK as well is the mobility of the 'house". Insurance rates are typically based on where the vehicle is driven, which the insurer traditionally based on the location of the owners home. For a fulltimer, the question of a "home base' can get sticky. If the coach spends 6 months a year in Spain, what rate do they charge?


Tom mentioned the anti-gypsy bias - I'll bet that has a lot to do with fulltiming issues in the UK.
Gary
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Mick & Pat

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #3 on: March 07, 2011, 03:10:06 PM »
Gary, The existence of full timing in the UK is a nightmare, persons are even to frightened to ask in case their details are placed on the insurance companies data base that being a know full timer would then prevent them from ever obtaining insurance..........if that makes sense?

Please visit the UK forum http://www.motorhome365.com/  where you can read in miuets what it would take me hours to type on here, then you may see what the UK problem is. :)

Mick 
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

UK couple who toured USA / Canada. Oct 2007 - Aug 2009

2005 Fleetwood Discovery 39S,Cat C7, Freightliner XC Chassis  2008 Jeep Liberty Ltd 3.7 .

Mick & Pat

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #4 on: July 02, 2011, 05:33:38 AM »
Guy's may I try and resurrect this thread if possible by asking a simple question?

Okay two American couples, identical age, location BOTH own lets say an identical A class RV.

Now the only difference is that one couple live full time in their RV and the other couple use their RV every weekend and when ever they can get away.

Both insure with the same company, now does the full timing couple pay more that the other couple?

Can we come up with a simple answer to this question without involving medical, home owner,liability  insurance ?

Mick
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

UK couple who toured USA / Canada. Oct 2007 - Aug 2009

2005 Fleetwood Discovery 39S,Cat C7, Freightliner XC Chassis  2008 Jeep Liberty Ltd 3.7 .

mrschwarz

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #5 on: July 02, 2011, 08:15:50 AM »
I am also interested in the answer to this question. My motor home insurance is up for renewal this month and I am shopping like I always do. One of the questions that I am asked is if I spend more than 30 days in my RV. Since I am currently working, the answer is no. In a short while, the answer will be yes. Can I expect higher premiums or are they only interested for statistical reasons?
Michael

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Ned

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #6 on: July 02, 2011, 08:27:23 AM »
A simple answer, yes, the full timers will pay more.  They will have additional coverages and higher use, so higher cost.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #7 on: July 02, 2011, 09:28:55 AM »
How simple is that, and from someone who should know  ;D
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Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #8 on: July 02, 2011, 09:55:16 AM »
Ned,

Now that Mick has received his 'simple' answer, could you elaborate on what additional coverages you carry as a fulltimer vs when you were a homeowner? I'm thinking that we could come up with an article for the forum library. I'll also look at some of the prior discussions. TIA.
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Jeff

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #9 on: July 02, 2011, 10:43:04 AM »
Ned,

Now that Mick has received his 'simple' answer, could you elaborate on what additional coverages you carry as a fulltimer vs when you were a homeowner? I'm thinking that we could come up with an article for the forum library. I'll also look at some of the prior discussions. TIA.

Tom:

Progressive's Full Timing Package provides personal liability that a homeowner usually has as part of their coverage on their home and additional personal contents coverage for items stored outside the RV.

That in addition to the exposure of living in the RV full time.

Ned

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #10 on: July 02, 2011, 10:47:29 AM »
Since we haven't been homeowners for over 14 years, others may have to fill in some details.  But a homeowners insurance policy will include some coverages that extend to an RV, like liability umbrellas, that a full timer has to add to their insurance.  Also, an RV used only for vacations will have a number of days use restriction in it, which is cheaper than full time use, due to the reduced exposure to claims.

On the other hand, a full timer has more flexibility in choosing a garaging address and domicile state so has more control over the insurance costs than the fixed base homeowner.  Insurance is all about probability of loss.  The lower the chance of a claim, the lower the premium.  A full timer just has more exposure to RV related losses than the part time RVer.  That, along with the additional needed coverage, mostly liability, that otherwise are extended from the homeowner's insurance, all increase the premium cost.  But the full timer without the house doesn't have to pay for homeowner's insurance, so the overall insurance costs may be about the same, or even less for the full timer.

In short, I guess there really is no simple answer :)  Each case will be different.

I believe all the above is true, but I'm sure if I have any of it wrong, we'll hear about it :)  I'm not an insurance expert by any means but have been on both sides of this issue.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #11 on: July 02, 2011, 10:59:25 AM »
My company (National Interstate) offers both "fulltime' and "recreational" RV coverage and I have used both. They declare that any use over 150 nights/year is full time, so if we will be on the road more than 150 nights, I activate the fulltime option. The cost difference was about $60 the last time I did this, which was 2008.  No additional coverages are involved in this - it merely adjusts the premium for the greater on-the-road time.

If you have no other home insurance, you may want to add some additional personal liability coverage, e.g. a liability umbrella policy. Homeowner or renter policies usually have this as part of the package, but automotive insurance does not and provides liability only if should you be at fault in a vehicle accident.  Costs will vary according to what coverage you choose and the amount.
Gary
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Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #12 on: July 02, 2011, 11:05:26 AM »
Quote from: Ned
In short, I guess there really is no simple answer (http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/Smileys/default/smiley.gif)  Each case will be different.

Aye, I tried to say that in an earlier message, but I came across as the watchmaker replying to someone who asked the time  :(

FWIW although we carried 300,000/300,000 on our vehicles and small boats, our insurance company asked us to increase those to 500,000/500,000 when we took out an umbrella policy. The big boat already had higher coverages and has coverage for stuff not normally covered on a vehicle.

Some of this stuff may not translate for folks from overseas, especially the UK with their social medicine system and (relative) lack of litigation. We haven't lived there for over 30 years, and so I'm out of touch with the current needs and coverages there; That's why I asked in my earlier message what the current UK equivalents are.

I'm always wary of providing a 'simple' answer to anyone from overseas when it comes to insurance; We got a big education when we moved from the UK to California  :o
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 11:10:26 AM by Tom »
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Ned

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #13 on: July 02, 2011, 11:47:49 AM »
Unfortunately, things are never "exactly the same" for two people, so the best simple answer is "it depends" :)  An article comparing homeowner plus RV insurance coverages (not costs) to full timer coverages would be useful.  I think there's enough information in this topic to at least cover the basics.  And, as you point out, it may not apply at all to foreigners when they visit here.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #14 on: July 02, 2011, 12:05:21 PM »
Quote from: Ned
... it may not apply at all to foreigners when they visit here.

Aye, but my bigger concern is that some of it does apply (when they visit the US) and they may not realize it. Someone coming from a country with social medicine and little or no personal litigation may not understand the need for medical coverage on their RV or car, or personal liability coverage.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 12:07:41 PM by Tom »
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Ned

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #15 on: July 02, 2011, 12:25:51 PM »
I didn't mean to imply that there are no insurance concerns for visiting foreigners, just that those concerns may be quite different from a US resident.  And those concerns will probably vary by country as well.  That would be a subject for a different article.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #16 on: July 02, 2011, 12:47:48 PM »
Understood Ned.

Quote
That would be a subject for a different article.

Aye, probably two articles, although I was initially thinking of visitors to the USA.
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Mick & Pat

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #17 on: July 02, 2011, 01:18:27 PM »
My company (National Interstate) offers both "fulltime' and "recreational" RV coverage and I have used both. They declare that any use over 150 nights/year is full time, so if we will be on the road more than 150 nights, I activate the fulltime option. The cost difference was about $60 the last time I did this, which was 2008.  No additional coverages are involved in this - it merely adjusts the premium for the greater on-the-road time.

Gary, you not only answered my initial 'simple' question but also the next one which was by what amount does it differ  :), but not to let you guys off to lightly does the 150 days mean consecutive or 150 days intermittent in one year?

Mick
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

UK couple who toured USA / Canada. Oct 2007 - Aug 2009

2005 Fleetwood Discovery 39S,Cat C7, Freightliner XC Chassis  2008 Jeep Liberty Ltd 3.7 .

AlanT

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #18 on: July 02, 2011, 01:34:30 PM »
Since we haven't been homeowners for over 14 years, others may have to fill in some details. But a homeowners insurance policy will include some coverages that extend to an RV, like liability umbrellas, that a full timer has to add to their insurance. Also, an RV used only for vacations will have a number of days use restriction in it, which is cheaper than full time use, due to the reduced exposure to claims.

On the other hand, a full timer has more flexibility in choosing a garaging address and domicile state so has more control over the insurance costs than the fixed base homeowner.  Insurance is all about probability of loss.  The lower the chance of a claim, the lower the premium.  A full timer just has more exposure to RV related losses than the part time RVer.  That, along with the additional needed coverage, mostly liability, that otherwise are extended from the homeowner's insurance, all increase the premium cost.  But the full timer without the house doesn't have to pay for homeowner's insurance, so the overall insurance costs may be about the same, or even less for the full timer.

In short, I guess there really is no simple answer :)  Each case will be different.

I believe all the above is true, but I'm sure if I have any of it wrong, we'll hear about it :)  I'm not an insurance expert by any means but have been on both sides of this issue.

I am in the UK and there is nothing in my home insurance that would relate to my RV.


Alan

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #19 on: July 02, 2011, 01:56:24 PM »
Alan, see the subsequent messages in this topic where we discuss what does and does not apply to visitors.  My reply was specifically to (Michael) mrschwarz, who, I believe, is a US resident.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Marsha/CA

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #20 on: July 02, 2011, 02:28:58 PM »
Mick & Pat,

We have had our motorhome since 2003.  In 2007 we sold our house and lived in our motorhome for close to a year while our new house was being built.  We changed over to fulltime coverage during that period of time and the increase was $90.00 per year.

Regarding whether the 150 days is consecutive or not, our insurance considers a total of 150 days of the year as needing fulltime insurance, not consecutive.

We now own a house and some of the coverage while in the motorhome is taken care of by our homeowners insurance.

My gut feeling is if I plan to travel more than a total of the 150 days of the year, I'll pick up the fulltime coverage.  I don't want to give the insurance company any grounds to either not pay or to reduce their responsibility because I was in the coach for more than 150 days.

BTW, we also have an umbrella coverage for everything.  Probably more than we need; but we both sleep well at night..... ;)

Marsha~
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Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #21 on: July 02, 2011, 03:11:15 PM »
Quote from: AlanT
I am in the UK and there is nothing in my home insurance that would relate to my RV.

Thanks Alan. That's an example of differences between UK insurance and insurance here in the USA. As Gary explained in another topic:

"The contents (of the RV) would be covered by homeowners (insurance), to the extent of the homeowner policy on 'personal property'."

I suspect other differences include the need for &/or the amount of liability insurance, medical insurance (covers anyone injured in an automobile accident), uninsured motorist (someone driving without insurance runs into your vehicle), and a number of others.
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 04:56:01 PM by Tom »
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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #22 on: July 02, 2011, 08:15:22 PM »
National Interstate counts the 150 nights as a total - makes no difference if consecutive or not.

I should add that we do own a home and have a home owner policy that provides coverage for our personal property wherever it is located (RV, car, hotel room, etc.) and also personal liability for any damage we may cause to someone else's person or property.  A visitor to the USA would not have this, so might wish to buy additional coverages to cover the risk. By risk I mean things like your dog bites a child or a spark from your campfire starts a fire or a visitor bumps their head on your awning supports and needs stitches. Nothing in a normal RV insurance policy would cover such things, so you would have to pay out of pocket if you had no other insurance in the USA.
Gary
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Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #23 on: July 02, 2011, 08:23:00 PM »
Good explanation Gary. That should help scare visitors from coming to the USA  ;D

Last time we visited the UK (a year ago) we stumbled upon a serious (turned out to be fatal) accident en route to the airport in the wee hours. In addition to talking with police at the scene, we had to provide statements from here (another story). I was concerned about potential litigation for anyone who touched the scene, and whether there was an equivalent to our Good Samaritan law. The police investigative officer I dealt with via email and phone for several months assured me there would be zero chance of litigation.

Just remembered that Mick is retired-constabulary, so he might associate with my comments.
 
« Last Edit: July 02, 2011, 08:34:06 PM by Tom »
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pdq

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #24 on: July 02, 2011, 09:50:30 PM »
.......now does the full timing couple pay more that the other couple?...

Hi Mick:

we are just going through this exact thing
current = motorhome covered for recreational use and house covered
soon = fulltime motorhome only (and no house - its sold)

in the end; about the same cost for insurance for fulltiming (as previously the cost of two policies added together)

regards, pdq
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Mick & Pat

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #25 on: July 03, 2011, 01:13:41 AM »
The 150 day thing is crazy.

Okay you take out 'normal' RV insurance and use your RV, lets say for 100 days, during those 100 days you tour the entire USA, the remainder of the time it sits on your drive but is still insured.

Now a person who takes out a full time policy, may remain in one location all year, does zero miles pays more where's the sense in that?

Surely the guy our on the roads is the greater risk?

Mick
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

UK couple who toured USA / Canada. Oct 2007 - Aug 2009

2005 Fleetwood Discovery 39S,Cat C7, Freightliner XC Chassis  2008 Jeep Liberty Ltd 3.7 .

Ned

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #26 on: July 03, 2011, 08:47:30 AM »
Okay you take out 'normal' RV insurance and use your RV, lets say for 100 days, during those 100 days you tour the entire USA, the remainder of the time it sits on your drive but is still insured.

Now a person who takes out a full time policy, may remain in one location all year, does zero miles pays more where's the sense in that?

Surely the guy our on the roads is the greater risk?

Not really.  The typical full timer will travel about twice as many miles a year as the vacation RVer.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #27 on: July 03, 2011, 10:32:26 AM »
One can always cite exceptions, but insurance is based on statistical norms.  To keep the premiums lower for the occasional use RVers, they need to establish some cut-off between part time and full time. The cut-off point is arbitrary, but that is true of any grouping, e.g. men vs women, adult vs child, etc.,
Gary
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Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #28 on: July 03, 2011, 11:31:41 AM »
Mick,

I'm just curious - what insurance coverage(s) did you have when you toured North America 2007-2009? IIRC you had at least one break where you flew back to the UK, but it would appear you were here more than 150 (or 180) days. Were you required to take out fulltimers insurance?
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 11:34:00 AM by Tom »
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Mick & Pat

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #29 on: July 03, 2011, 11:59:59 AM »
Tom, we used Progressive Drive or Direct, forget which one now, but we originally signed up with one for the Jeep and when it came to adding the RV they told us they couldn't insure us as full timers so Garden City Insurance http://www.gardencityins.com/ put us in touch with the other Progressive which bye the way had identical logo, web site and paper work  ???


Another surprise to us Brits was despite them covering  BOTH RV & toad, they would cover the RV for 12 months but only 6 months for the toad.


Mick
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

UK couple who toured USA / Canada. Oct 2007 - Aug 2009

2005 Fleetwood Discovery 39S,Cat C7, Freightliner XC Chassis  2008 Jeep Liberty Ltd 3.7 .

Tom

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #30 on: July 03, 2011, 12:08:44 PM »
Thanks for that info Mick.

Quote
Another surprise to us Brits was despite them covering  BOTH RV & toad, they would cover the RV for 12 months but only 6 months for the toad.

Yes, I believe that's quite normal, although I've never figured out the rationale. Our RV and cars are insured with the same company (State Farm); The RV coverage is for a year, while the cars are insured for 6 months at a time.

On the two companies/one logo issue, I wonder if it's like the situation we ran into when we first arrived here; Because we didn't have a minimum of one year driving experience in the US, State Farm couldn't insure us, but their State Farm Mutual division could, albeit at a significantly higher premium. Our clean UK driving records didn't count. After a year, they switched us to the "regular" State Farm, and our premiums halved.
« Last Edit: July 03, 2011, 12:20:41 PM by Tom »
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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #31 on: July 03, 2011, 12:26:44 PM »
Jeff, apologies for delayed thanks for your input. One question ...

Quote from: Jeff
That in addition to the exposure of living in the RV full time.

Could you please elaborate on that. TIA.
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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #32 on: July 03, 2011, 12:46:48 PM »
We have both our RV and truck insurance through Explorer and both policies are for 1 year.  I believe that's the first company we've insured with that offered a 1 year auto/truck policy.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
1997 Holiday Rambler Endeavor LE
2007 GMC Canyon

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #33 on: July 03, 2011, 08:55:17 PM »
Mick:

Pretty much all auto insurance is written on a six month form in the US.

mrschwarz

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #34 on: July 04, 2011, 06:56:17 AM »
I thought the same thing until I changed to Liberty Mutual (homeowner and other discounts, plus a better price). Their policy is for one year.
Michael

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Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #35 on: July 04, 2011, 08:55:13 AM »
Policies from The Hartford are also one year, whether car or RV.

It may be contortions in the regulatory system again. Consumer protection regulations have made it increasingly difficult to cancel a policy in mid term, but declining to renew it is an easy out for the companies. Shorter terms are a defensive move by the companies.
Gary
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Re: Fulltiming insurance costs
« Reply #36 on: July 04, 2011, 01:59:56 PM »
More fun for them to increase your premium twice a year rather than once. Also, permits them to raise it in smaller increments, thus you may be less likely to jump companies as it would seem more reasonable....

Just food for thought... In Canada, in my experience, most policies are for 1 year although the new trend is monthly payments and auto withdrawals to make it seem painless.
Stu
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