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Author Topic: Lithium ion battery  (Read 8486 times)

19GC45

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Lithium ion battery
« on: April 27, 2011, 11:41:28 PM »
New development in RV battery.
 Blog:
RVing Tips- RV LifeStyle - RV Travel Full Time RVing - RV Maintenance - RV Repair
 Manufacturer:
RV Motorhome Trailer - Lithionics Battery
Glen

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19GC45

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #1 on: April 27, 2011, 11:44:59 PM »
I see the links aren't live. Let's try again.

Blog:
http://www.aboutrving.com/rr_one.php

Manufacturer
http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/rv.html

Better.
Glen

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Mexray

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #2 on: April 28, 2011, 01:50:34 AM »
Those Li3 batteries sound intriguing...The reduction in weight seems significant!

Price of this newly packaged Li3 product (not yet mentioned) seems to be the crux of the matter for wide-spread RV use, etc...I assume it will be 'pricey', if the Li small batteries now available (for cameras, etc.) are any indication...

Once a 'normal' service life can be determined, one could seemingly compute a rough cost/year of life to compare with AGM's and flooded cell types...

There will always be those that want the 'best' no matter what the cost - don't know how big that market might be for this product, however...

I applaud them for developing this technology for more wide-spread use in vehicles, etc...Maybe there are others waiting in the 'weeds' to join in, bringing costs down for us!

Who knows, with the price of Lead increasing as it has recently (along with Gold and Silver!) - this Li technology may be upon us sooner than later...

With $5/gal gas upon us, a $500 Group 24 deep cycle battery can't be far behind!



Ray & Pat near Lodi, CA...

Gary RV_Wizard

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #3 on: April 28, 2011, 05:34:23 AM »
Lithium Ion batteries have some shortcomings for RV use. They are fairly easily damaged by shock,  don't like to be deep discharged and can be damaged by high temps (but that's in the 100+ arena).  On the other hand, they enjoy being repeatedly charged in short cycles.

http://www.tvtechnology.com/article/89350
Gary
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Gary Brinck
Summers: Black Mountain, NC
Home: Ocala National Forest, FL

19GC45

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #4 on: April 28, 2011, 11:49:27 AM »
Those Li3 batteries sound intriguing...The reduction in weight seems significant!

Price of this newly packaged Li3 product (not yet mentioned) seems to be the crux of the matter for wide-spread RV use, etc...I assume it will be 'pricey', if the Li small batteries now available (for cameras, etc.) are any indication...

Once a 'normal' service life can be determined, one could seemingly compute a rough cost/year of life to compare with AGM's and flooded cell types...

There will always be those that want the 'best' no matter what the cost - don't know how big that market might be for this product, however...

I applaud them for developing this technology for more wide-spread use in vehicles, etc...Maybe there are others waiting in the 'weeds' to join in, bringing costs down for us!

Who knows, with the price of Lead increasing as it has recently (along with Gold and Silver!) - this Li technology may be upon us sooner than later...

With $5/gal gas upon us, a $500 Group 24 deep cycle battery can't be far behind!

Price is as yet unknown. I have emailed the company but nothing back yet. This thing is in the very early stages of commercialization.
Glen

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Tony_Alberta

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #5 on: May 07, 2011, 10:35:05 PM »
I like the idea of these because they can be recharged so much faster and appear to have a much longer discharge/recharge life.   Three or four times faster than lead acid and maybe three or five times as many charges.   

But I wonder if you need to get new chargers and new charge circuitry.  Seems to me the stock converter that comes with even a brand new coach won't be able to put out the amps and might not do a proper job of charging these.  OTOH the blog link indicates they just had to change some settings in the converter so who knows.

FrankNSharon

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #6 on: May 08, 2011, 09:08:34 AM »
The LiFePO4 batteries overcome many of the issues with regular lithium batteries and have been used for a while now in electric vehicle applications, so their performance and longevity is documented. While the initial cost seems high (about 4x lead acid) the ability to really deep cycle (down to 20% or less) without damage - unlike lead acid that you should not go below 50% - makes up for it over the life of the battery. I have seem calculations that show the total life cycle cost is less than lead acid, but I don't remember where I read it now.

Here is an example that I am looking at - not sure I can afford the upfront cost.

http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4prismaticbattery128v200ah2560wh400arate.aspx

Also, if you try these, be sure to get their charger - they charge characteristics are different than lead acid.

Frank

19GC45

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #7 on: May 09, 2011, 07:51:38 PM »
The LiFePO4 batteries overcome many of the issues with regular lithium batteries and have been used for a while now in electric vehicle applications, so their performance and longevity is documented. While the initial cost seems high (about 4x lead acid) the ability to really deep cycle (down to 20% or less) without damage - unlike lead acid that you should not go below 50% - makes up for it over the life of the battery. I have seem calculations that show the total life cycle cost is less than lead acid, but I don't remember where I read it now.

Here is an example that I am looking at - not sure I can afford the upfront cost.

http://www.batteryspace.com/lifepo4prismaticbattery128v200ah2560wh400arate.aspx

Also, if you try these, be sure to get their charger - they charge characteristics are different than lead acid.

Frank

Took a look at that link. The price is certainly staggering at this point. Whether they can achieve market acceptance to bring prices down enough remains to be seen.
Glen

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FrankNSharon

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #8 on: May 09, 2011, 08:09:20 PM »
The price looks staggering at first, but when you do the math, they are close to the same price as lead acid for the same number of usable AMP hours. Most people look at a lead acid, say a Trojan 105, and see 225 AMP Hours. But, the reality is you only get 112 of those AMP Hours to use, since you are not supposed to discharge them more than 50% max, and 80% on a regular basis if you want to get the most life out of them. To get the same life out of a LifePO4 battery, you can use 200 of the 220 Amp Hours. And still get more cycles than the lead acid.

So, it is a case of more up front, but lasting longer and having some other benefits. I still have not decided if I am going with them - I have until August when we hit the road to make up my mind.

Frank

Just Lou

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #9 on: May 09, 2011, 08:41:16 PM »
Frank, in doing your calculations of usable amp hours, be aware that many of your appliances, inverters and electronic devices will/may shut down, and refuse to work, before you have the opportunity to discharge the batteries much below the 50% level recommended for the lead acid batteries.  It may not harm the battery to discharge it deeper than the old lead acid batteries, but is it usable power in your application?  Just a thought.
« Last Edit: May 09, 2011, 08:43:50 PM by aka Porky »
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

Tony_Alberta

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #10 on: May 09, 2011, 09:41:04 PM »
The price looks staggering at first, but when you do the math, they are close to the same price as lead acid for the same number of usable AMP hours. Most people look at a lead acid, say a Trojan 105, and see 225 AMP Hours. But, the reality is you only get 112 of those AMP Hours to use, since you are not supposed to discharge them more than 50% max, and 80% on a regular basis if you want to get the most life out of them. To get the same life out of a LifePO4 battery, you can use 200 of the 220 Amp Hours. And still get more cycles than the lead acid.
Very good point.  I hadn't thought about comparing things that way.

FrankNSharon

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #11 on: May 09, 2011, 11:12:00 PM »
Porky,

That is a good point, I will have to look at the discharge voltage curve and see how far down it is usable. Of course, you could have an 18V or 24V system done just combining more or less cells, which should solve that, but then you loose some power in the voltage regulator. :(

Frank

Lou Schneider

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #12 on: May 10, 2011, 12:20:12 AM »
I see the 80% discharge level of the Li-Ion batteries as a disadvantage compared to Lead-Acid.

Think of the remaining charge after using a Lead-Acid battery to it's 50% level as an emergency reserve.  You usually don't use it, but if you need to pull more from the battery due to unforseen circumstances, the power is available.

Li-Ions don't have that luxury.  Once you drain the battery to it's recommended level, it's done.  You can't stretch it any further so you're out of luck if you're not able to recharge it when you've planned.
« Last Edit: May 10, 2011, 12:22:44 AM by Lou Schneider »

Just Lou

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #13 on: May 10, 2011, 09:41:38 AM »
Porky,

That is a good point, I will have to look at the discharge voltage curve and see how far down it is usable. Of course, you could have an 18V or 24V system done just combining more or less cells, which should solve that, but then you loose some power in the voltage regulator. :(

Frank

The true test of usable power lies in what your loads will require and demand (before shutdown).  I question what usable information you can gain from the battery manufacturer in that regard.  There's bound to be a big difference in running an electric motor (vehicle or power tool) and the more sophisticated or demanding electronics you may experience in your application.  Interesting process.
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

19GC45

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #14 on: May 10, 2011, 10:22:44 PM »
Frank, in doing your calculations of usable amp hours, be aware that many of your appliances, inverters and electronic devices will/may shut down, and refuse to work, before you have the opportunity to discharge the batteries much below the 50% level recommended for the lead acid batteries.  It may not harm the battery to discharge it deeper than the old lead acid batteries, but is it usable power in your application?  Just a thought.

Off the top of my head, one of the features of LiIon batteries is that they will continue delivering usable power deep into their discharge cycle. This particular battery is programmed to enter "sleep mode" at a certain point, leaving enough residual power to start your generator. It seems to me that the manufacturer would be well advised to put more hard information on their website rather than assuming that people lack the knowledge to interpret the information and draw reasonable conclusions.
Glen

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SargeW

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #15 on: May 11, 2011, 10:54:26 AM »
This is an interesting conversation for sure, but in looking at their web site I see nothing to indicate that the manufacturer would even consider recommending their products for RV use.  Their entire informational literature is directed at electric vehicles.  I don't see where it would even be a consideration for an RV at this point.
Marty--
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FrankNSharon

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #16 on: May 11, 2011, 11:13:32 AM »
SargeW,

The LifePO4 technology is used in many applications, EV's is just one of them. If you think about it, "Golf Cart" batteries are often used in RV coaches for many of the same reasons - many deep cycles are required in both applications. Golf Carts are EV's.

LifePO4's are also finding acceptance in some off grid solar applications for the same reasons - many deep cycles are required.

Frank

19GC45

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #17 on: May 11, 2011, 12:10:55 PM »
This is an interesting conversation for sure, but in looking at their web site I see nothing to indicate that the manufacturer would even consider recommending their products for RV use.  Their entire informational literature is directed at electric vehicles.  I don't see where it would even be a consideration for an RV at this point.

I'm not sure which website you're referring to, but if you look here http://www.lithionicsbattery.com/rv.html you'll see that they do, in fact, show RV application.
Glen

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SargeW

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #18 on: May 11, 2011, 05:47:20 PM »
I am referring to the web site that Frank posted in reply #7 above. I went to that web site and looked at it. It appeared to me that was the web site that was being discussed. There may be other web sites that list an RV application, but the first one we were talking about does not.
Marty--
2017 Tiffin Allegro Bus 40SP
Cummins ISL 450 HP/Powerglide chassis
Visit our new travel blog! http://www.mytripjournal.com/rvnchickTNG
Support your local Police Officer, Fire Fighter and Military!

19GC45

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #19 on: May 12, 2011, 09:10:39 PM »
I am referring to the web site that Frank posted in reply #7 above. I went to that web site and looked at it. It appeared to me that was the web site that was being discussed. There may be other web sites that list an RV application, but the first one we were talking about does not.

Sarge

In #1 above, in which I corrected my initial post, you will find the website I referred to when I started the thread. Unfortunately they don't have price info, but are the manufacturer of the battery designed for RV application. Information on the site is shallow.
I think the other company makes batteries which might be used for RVs, but they don't seem to be going in that direction. Also, their batteries seem to be much heavier than the Lithionics. If you read the blog mentioned in my original post you can get an idea of capacities, weights & dimensions.
Glen

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donandmax

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #20 on: May 13, 2011, 08:37:35 AM »
The price looks staggering at first, but when you do the math, they are close to the same price as lead acid for the same number of usable AMP hours. Most people look at a lead acid, say a Trojan 105, and see 225 AMP Hours. But, the reality is you only get 112 of those AMP Hours to use, since you are not supposed to discharge them more than 50% max, and 80% on a regular basis if you want to get the most life out of them. To get the same life out of a LifePO4 battery, you can use 200 of the 220 Amp Hours. And still get more cycles than the lead acid.

So, it is a case of more up front, but lasting longer and having some other benefits. I still have not decided if I am going with them - I have until August when we hit the road to make up my mind.

Frank
My mind is made up. No way would I spend this kind of money on something I rarely use. Even if I did camp in the boonies I still wouldnt spend this kind of money on a battery and charger.The price will come down in due time like everything does i.e. flat screen tv's but I'll probably be dead by then..
Happy Motoring
Don and Maxine
1996 damon Intruder 33 ft class A
Amber the spoiled rotten Dachshund

FrankNSharon

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #21 on: May 13, 2011, 10:18:59 AM »
Don and Max,

In your case you are absolutely correct. These batteries, if they do make sense, only make sense if they are used heavily day in and day out. So they do not fit your planned life style. In our case we ar going to be putting a serious solar system onto our coach and want to push how long we can boondock, so these may be a consideration for us...

Frank

Tony_Alberta

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Re: Lithium ion battery
« Reply #22 on: May 13, 2011, 04:47:48 PM »
One of the other things I like about these batteries is it appears they will accept a high rate of charge much nearer to the end of the charge cycle.   Lead acid batteries start taking less of a charge at 70% capacity. http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_the_lead_acid_battery   But the Lithium batteries start taking less of a charge at 85%.   http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/charging_lithium_ion_batteries

That said I would never put any of these batteries under the hood of a vehicle as their life goes down a lot with high temperatures.    I'd stay with lead acid there.  Well, ok, I'd consider it up in the Arctic but that's about it.

 

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