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Author Topic: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman  (Read 13807 times)

Molaker

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #30 on: June 13, 2011, 05:17:51 PM »
Made up for by all the meteorites that hit the atmosphere every day.
So, then wouldn't the earth be getting "fuller"?
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wgb1

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #31 on: June 13, 2011, 05:20:44 PM »
So, then wouldn't the earth be getting "fuller"?

But most meteorites are but a mere grain of sand.
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Ned

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #32 on: June 13, 2011, 05:28:02 PM »
But most meteorites are but a mere grain of sand.

The earth has been collecting those grains of sand for 4.5 billion years.  That's a lot of beach :)
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
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Molaker

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #33 on: June 13, 2011, 05:28:59 PM »
But most meteorites are but a mere grain of sand.
OK, which is it?  Either the earth is getting emptier from the stuff we shoot outta here or getting fuller from the grains of sand meteorites or "someone up there" is carefully measuring the ins and outs and ups and downs so it balances out. ???   Oh, I know.  It's being regulated by the government. ;D
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Just Lou

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #34 on: June 13, 2011, 05:49:49 PM »
We are here now, we are going to go away and the earth will still be here when we are gone.  At the same time we have always been here and will always be here, on an atomic level at least.  The atoms that are you, used to be something else, and when they are done being you they will go be something else that is not only not you, but probably not what they were before they were you. 

Earth is just as full now as it was when it was formed and as it will be when we are gone.  Atomically that is.

Jeff

I don't understand a word the man said, but I sure do like talk like that. ??? :-\ :D
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Ned

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #35 on: June 13, 2011, 06:18:46 PM »
Since every atom of every element heavier than iron was made in a supernova, we're all made of "star stuff" as Carl Sagan said.
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Just Lou

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #36 on: June 13, 2011, 07:51:39 PM »
Didn't General Motors make the super nova?
'97 Bounder 34V (F53 w/tag), '99 Honda Accord EX

taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #37 on: June 13, 2011, 10:04:52 PM »

We are here now, we are going to go away and the earth will still be here when we are gone.  At the same time we have always been here and will always be here, on an atomic level at least.  The atoms that are you, used to be something else, and when they are done being you they will go be something else that is not only not you, but probably not what they were before they were you. 

Earth is just as full now as it was when it was formed and as it will be when we are gone.  Atomically that is.

Jeff

I'm gonna frame this!  This is the best paragraph I have ever read, by a large margin.  Thank You Jeff.

My only suggestion is that if we look inside the atoms, what we would find is empty space, except for a few particles in the center, which we call neutrons and protons.  So actually if we strip off all the electrons flying around, the whole planet could be condensed to something like one yard in diameter.  That could be what was here initially?
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Jeff Brown

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #38 on: June 13, 2011, 10:23:51 PM »
The cool thing about all that empty space is that while most of it is empty at any given time the electrons move so fast and so randomly that none of it is empty for long even though most of.it is empty most of the time.

A great book for understanding a bit of science is "A Brief history of nearly everything."

Jeff
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mrschwarz

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #39 on: June 14, 2011, 07:30:43 AM »

We are here now, we are going to go away and the earth will still be here when we are gone.  At the same time we have always been here and will always be here, on an atomic level at least.  The atoms that are you, used to be something else, and when they are done being you they will go be something else that is not only not you, but probably not what they were before they were you. 

Earth is just as full now as it was when it was formed and as it will be when we are gone.  Atomically that is.

Jeff

I seem to remember learning about conversion from matter to energy and vice versa when in school. Wasn't there that E=MC squared thing? We are driving around burning oil and converting it to energy and gasses. Some of the energy is heat which radiates into space. Some of it is motion, which I supposed is affected in the earth's rotation, as insignificant as it may be.

Plants absorb sunlight and carbon dioxide and convert them into mass and oxygen. Pound for pound, does a watermelon pull its equivalent weight in nutrients out of the ground? I don't know.

Most of the water in the world is salt water. Clean, fresh water is an extremely small percentage of the total. We need fresh clean water to live. It isn't necessarily how much matter exists on the earth, it's what form it's in. :)
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Rancher Will

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #40 on: June 15, 2011, 12:41:36 PM »
This "Malathusaian nonsence" has been around for hundreds of years.

Can anyone name even one instance in human history when and/or where humans have suffered from the Earth running out of anything, or that was not replaced by something better? And, why should we believe that Humans are so significant as to affect the Earth?

Just Lou

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #41 on: June 15, 2011, 12:55:03 PM »
Quote from: mrschwarz
Most of the water in the world is salt water. Clean, fresh water is an extremely small percentage of the total. We need fresh clean water to live. It isn't necessarily how much matter exists on the earth, it's what form it's in. :)

All the water in the oceans arrived there as fresh water.  Water evaporates from the ocean surface, leaving the salt and other minerals behind.  The cycle starts over when the beautiful fresh water falls as precipitation and flows back to the sea carrying salt and other minerals with it.

Unless you can stop the evaporation process (I would think that global warming might even speed the process) we will probably have fresh water clear into the middle of next week. ::)   Maybe beyond :-\
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Jeff Brown

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #42 on: June 15, 2011, 02:30:48 PM »
Quote
Can anyone name even one instance in human history when and/or where humans have suffered from the Earth running out of anything, or that was not replaced by something better? And, why should we believe that Humans are so significant as to affect the Earth?

We are not significant, I'll start with that.  Earth was find for billions of years without us and will probably be fine for billions of years when we are gone. 

Quote
Unless you can stop the evaporation process (I would think that global warming might even speed the process) we will probably have fresh water clear into the middle of next week. ::)   Maybe beyond

That's kind of funny a hippie was telling me that global warming was evaporating the clouds before they could drop their water, so that it wouldn't get cool enough to actually precipitate so the water cycle was being broken by our over use of oil.  So all of the water from the oceans and ice caps was going to be evaporated in to a gaseous state with no place on the planet cool enough to actually produce rain, not even at night.  I doubt his 1960s VW vans carbon footprint was nearly small enough for him to be ragging on my RAV-4 though. 

Lesson to be learned here:  Don't smoke weed while watching global warming documentaries!


Fun time ahead I'm sure!

Jeff Brown
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taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #43 on: June 15, 2011, 03:48:37 PM »
This "Malthusian nonsense" has been around for hundreds of years.

Can anyone name even one instance in human history when and/or where humans have suffered from the Earth running out of anything, or that was not replaced by something better? And, why should we believe that Humans are so significant as to affect the Earth?

Buffaloes?
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AndyinLexington

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #44 on: June 15, 2011, 04:18:00 PM »

Lesson to be learned here:  Don't smoke weed while watching global warming documentaries!


Best statement in the discussion, so far.  In my opinion, of course.
Andy Holmes
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Marc L

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #45 on: June 15, 2011, 05:25:21 PM »
Earth is just as full now as it was when it was formed and as it will be when we are gone.  Atomically that is.
Minus the Mars rover.
Marc...

taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #46 on: June 15, 2011, 09:45:40 PM »
Minus the Mars rover.

and a lot of junk that just sits out there orbiting the planet, expired satellites, etc.  Then you need to add all the meteors that have landed here over 4 billion years...

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Rancher Will

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #47 on: June 16, 2011, 07:08:21 AM »
Taoshum, I can't tell you how many buffalos are still in Africa and Asia but the latest ZI have heard it numbers in the millions, total.

 If you are writing Bufflaos about the Bison in North America, then the latest figures for just the United States number considerably over 100,000. I don't know how many in Canada.

If you think the loss of "Bufflaos" has caused any problem then the next time you go shopping check the Bison meat that is sold in the meat shops of Supermarkets or go and enjoy a Buffalo steak or Buffalo Burger in a restaurant.

catblaster

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #48 on: June 16, 2011, 05:48:40 PM »
Love that buffalo!! consider this...if chickens were not so good to eat they would be extinct by now,..this should lead you to "how to save manatees" answer: find a really good recipe and raise them for food. Sorry..I got off subject.
Will and Jane
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PancakeBill

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #49 on: June 16, 2011, 06:07:30 PM »
Live in Yellowstone and tell me about the loss of Bison aka buffalo....  Need proof, I have some pies for you.

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s2kskibum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #50 on: June 16, 2011, 10:31:05 PM »
Wow, some really naive responses here...

the planet is over populated. 7 billion soon.

We cannot continue to pump chemicals into the soil to "make food." Even with fertilizers our food has just a small percentage of the nutrients it used to have.

We are an arrogant species. The sooner we leave food chain, the better. The end of homo sapiens will not be pretty. The planet and life will survive, The human race will not. Just a blip. Relax. Going to go a couple thousand years more. I'll burn all the fuel I can in the mean time!

Sorry. That's the truth. Now go pray I am not right, I am sure it will help.

Yeah, I'm I heathen bad guy. No, actually, I'm the realist.
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taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #51 on: June 17, 2011, 12:13:38 AM »
Taoshum, I can't tell you how many buffalos are still in Africa and Asia but the latest ZI have heard it numbers in the millions, total.

 If you are writing Bufflaos about the Bison in North America, then the latest figures for just the United States number considerably over 100,000. I don't know how many in Canada.

If you think the loss of "Bufflaos" has caused any problem then the next time you go shopping check the Bison meat that is sold in the meat shops of Supermarkets or go and enjoy a Buffalo steak or Buffalo Burger in a restaurant.

I readily admit I know nothing about Africa.  I watch the NGC and see lots of animals, running from one wet spot to another while the big cats grab dinner but  that's about it for me.  I don't know much about Bison either, just that historians say that the high plains of what's now the USA used to have herds numbered in the millions until until they were hunted, practically to extinction, to provide meat to the army and hides for somebody.  Now a few ranches, like Ted Turner, have slowly created some new herds, fenced them in and sell meat to the expensive eateries in big cities or Whole Foods.  There maybe plenty, I don't know but they are gone for the most part, man killed them, and the country side is fenced up one side and down the other.  You may not like the example and can nit pick holes in the example but the Bison/Buffalos are gone.  And, BTW, most of the people where were here before the Bison were killed are dead too along with all their families.  Turns out we could have learned quite a bit from them which is now gone.  You seem to know a lot more about it than I do  II guess the NGC shows are all wrong when they talk about lost city of Atlantis; lost civilizations in central America; polluted rivers that no longer support even the carp and then there are the nuclear weapons that could decimate any city on earth in a moment thru a mistake.  Your right, it's all a hoax.
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Taos, NM.

taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #52 on: June 17, 2011, 12:26:43 AM »
Wow, some really naive responses here...

the planet is over populated. 7 billion soon.

We cannot continue to pump chemicals into the soil to "make food." Even with fertilizers our food has just a small percentage of the nutrients it used to have.

We are an arrogant species. The sooner we leave food chain, the better. The end of homo sapiens will not be pretty. The planet and life will survive, The human race will not. Just a blip. Relax. Going to go a couple thousand years more. I'll burn all the fuel I can in the mean time!


Sorry. That's the truth. Now go pray I am not right, I am sure it will help.

Yeah, I'm I heathen bad guy. No, actually, I'm the realist.


yea, 7 billion soon and in our lifetime, probably 14 billions and in our children's lifetime, probably 28 billion.  It's gone exponential, doubling every generation while food, water and fuel are probably decreasing.  I agree, burn it all... the sooner the better because when it is gone, we will be forced to find a new solution for mobility and I doubt that it will be bicycles.  In fact, we could ban all vehicles that get more than 10 mpg and use the engineers to design better carburetors.  Bring back the Packards... LA needs more smog.
07 Itasca Meridian 34SH.  '08 Jeep Sahara.
Taos, NM.

taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #53 on: June 17, 2011, 12:30:07 AM »
Live in Yellowstone and tell me about the loss of Bison aka buffalo....  Need proof, I have some pies for you.

I guess the wolves are not hungry yet... the Bison I saw would make great wolf bait for a few weeks.  They get so little exercise, they probably can't run more than a mile without a heart attack.  LOL.
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Taos, NM.

taoshum

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #54 on: June 17, 2011, 12:35:54 AM »
Love that buffalo!! consider this...if chickens were not so good to eat they would be extinct by now,..this should lead you to "how to save manatees" answer: find a really good recipe and raise them for food. Sorry..I got off subject.


Seems like rattlesnakes would be easier to grow and I've heard they taste just like chicken.  Are you sure you are getting KFC or KFR... Kentucy Fried Rattlers or Rattler Nuggets at the Mac place.  sorry, further off subject.
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catblaster

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #55 on: June 17, 2011, 07:24:30 AM »
Wonder if anyone remembers an science program on Discovery channel (sorry I can't remember) where rats were given a near perfect environment to reproduce and form social connection much the same as humans, with space being the only limitation. The scientists wanted to see what population level would be achieved and maintained. They were surprised to find that the population did not reach a balance point but instead ..all the rats died. Apparently overcrowding has a lot of negative issues. Oh , rattlesnake is excellent but they are the smelliest animal I have ever tried to clean and dress.
Will and Jane
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blueblood

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #56 on: June 17, 2011, 09:41:25 AM »
I guess the wolves are not hungry yet... the Bison I saw would make great wolf bait for a few weeks.  They get so little exercise, they probably can't run more than a mile without a heart attack.  LOL.

Don't ever test your theory on Bison moving. I was part of a team assigned to Ft Huachuca, AZ in 1954 to reopen the base and we had to remove the Bison who had gathered there over the years. We were not allowed to shoot them - only chase them with horses and Jeeps to lasso them and load for shipment up north to MT and elsewhere. Those big guys can move very fast; they often out run us into canyons, etc.. More recently, in Yellowstone we have both observed them and seen the unfortunate effects of people underestimating them.
Leo

Orick

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #57 on: June 17, 2011, 06:28:34 PM »
I don't know much about Bison either, just that historians say that the high plains of what's now the USA used to have herds numbered in the millions until until they were hunted, practically to extinction, to provide meat to the army and hides for somebody.  Now a few ranches, like Ted Turner, have slowly created some new herds, fenced them in and sell meat to the expensive eateries in big cities or Whole Foods.  There maybe plenty, I don't know but they are gone for the most part, man killed them, and the country side is fenced up one side and down the other.  You may not like the example and can nit pick holes in the example but the Bison/Buffalos are gone.  And, BTW, most of the people where were here before the Bison were killed are dead too along with all their families.  Turns out we could have learned quite a bit from them which is now gone. 

Amen brother.... Amen.  :(

We're currently in Custer State Park in the Black Hills and it feels wonderful to be able to stand in well preserved country and watch the wild life.  Thank goodness for the government regulations which created these and other sanctuaries.  I'm as much a capitalist as the next guy but capitalism has no conscience and needs some help.

"We're partying fools in the autum of a heyday".... Don Henley

Rick
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Getinaway

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #58 on: July 10, 2011, 11:29:51 AM »
It really is to bad there arent millions of Buffalo still roaming the plains.
Can you imagine how great it would be.............. millions of buffalo stampeding................ ruining everything in their path..................
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Ned

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Re: "Earth is Full" by Tom Friedman
« Reply #59 on: July 10, 2011, 12:15:54 PM »
Oh, give me a home where the buffalo roam and I'll show you a messy house.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
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