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Author Topic: Router not permitted in campground  (Read 10889 times)

Ned

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #30 on: September 22, 2011, 09:31:35 AM »
You can always turn off the WiFi radio and use an Ethernet cable to connect to the router.
-- Ned -- Fulltimer 1997-2013
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Marc L

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #31 on: September 22, 2011, 09:45:40 AM »
The campground owner can make any rule they want.
- quiet time at 11PM
- speed limit 5MPH
- no driving on grass
- keep pets on a leash

All the above are not laws, but are still common rules for campgrounds.  Failure to follow can get you kicked out.
Marc...

FrankNSharon

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #32 on: September 22, 2011, 09:53:47 AM »
Quote
I understand this analogy is somewhat different than the router issue, but how much of the air space can be really controlled by campground owners?

A closer analogy would be a theater asking you to leave because you refuse to turn off your cell phone during the movie and it's constant ringing is interfering with the people around you enjoying the movie they paid to see and hear. You could ask the theater to turn up their volume...

Jammer

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #33 on: September 22, 2011, 09:58:31 AM »
Turn off the SSID broadcast on your router and chances are no one will know you're there.

If you're concerned about actual interference, use automatic channel select or check manually to see which channels are in use and configure your router on an empty one.
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FrankNSharon

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #34 on: September 22, 2011, 10:05:33 AM »
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Turn off the SSID broadcast on your router and chances are no one will know you're there.

So, we should only follow those rules we agree with - I see, I like watching tv and running my generator until 2AM every morning maybe I will start doing that. Just beca\use you turn off the SSID or change channels does not mean you are not interfering with other peoples ability to access the internet. Once again it seems the feeling of entitlement over rules common courtesy.

3Gstore_Matt

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #35 on: September 22, 2011, 10:07:40 AM »
Rules are rules, but if you really don't want to use their WiFi just hide your SSID on the router. Which model Cradlepoint are you using and I can write you some basic steps on how to do this.

I'm not sure how there could be WiFi interference at a RV campground unless there are literally hundreds of RV's using WiFi in a very close proximity. In metro areas with dense populations, interference can occur because there are simply to many networks within a close area.

Jammer

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #36 on: September 22, 2011, 04:42:03 PM »
So, we should only follow those rules we agree with - I see, I like watching tv and running my generator until 2AM every morning maybe I will start doing that. Just beca\use you turn off the SSID or change channels does not mean you are not interfering with other peoples ability to access the internet. Once again it seems the feeling of entitlement over rules common courtesy.

In campgrounds and elsewhere in life I make it a point to follow rules that are fair and reasonable.

The FCC sets rules regarding radio interference.  Rules made up by the campground that conflict with the FCC's rules aren't reasonable, IMO.  If they figure out what I'm doing and want to make a big deal out of it, my choices are to play along or to leave.

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FrankNSharon

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #37 on: September 22, 2011, 05:24:46 PM »
'nough said, no point getting this thread locked.

Have fun,

Frank

Wandering

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #38 on: September 22, 2011, 06:01:30 PM »
For all who have replied:
I turned off my router as requested, attempted to access the campground WiFi, and FAILED.  The office did not answer the phone, so I walked up to verify the correct password.  I had used the correct password; they called the technician to come talk to me.  They said he was verifying things to address the problem (whatever that means).   , After waiting several minutes, I left my telephone number for him to call and walked back to the MH.  On the way I saw the technician talking to someone in a different RV.  He showed up at our MH a bit later.  When I answered the knock at the door, he started to step up into the coach.  Since I was not going to allow him to touch any equipment, I told him he had no business inside.  He backed off and then told me that another camper was using his router for business.  Therefore, the technician gave permission for the other camper and me to use our own routers.
Given his comments to me, I have no doubt that the "technician" was a "hacker".  The campground owner told me numerous times that he knew nothing about the WiFi system.  I will not be stopping there again.
Debbie and John

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BernieD

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #39 on: September 22, 2011, 06:30:25 PM »
I will not be stopping there again.

How about letting us know which campground it is so none of us will stop there?? TIA
Bernie & Marlene Dobrin
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Gottasmilealot

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #40 on: September 22, 2011, 06:31:49 PM »
I recall years ago when our municipality tried to regulate the placement of the very large satellite antennas using zoning regulations, they were advised that they were not permitted to interfere with a person's right to receive signals, I believe by the FCC, so they dropped that idea. I can't see how a campground has any authority to regulate anyone's use of wireless signals. They should provide cable internet service to sites if it's an issue. The problem is that many campgrounds install cheap equipment without the needed repeaters, advertise wireless internet access, only to provide inadequate service both in terms of limited bandwidth and coverage. If they don't have usable wireless internet service, they shouldn't advertise it.
Keith

FrankNSharon

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #41 on: September 22, 2011, 06:46:32 PM »
They are not trying to control what you receive it is what you are transmitting - your router is a transmitter and interferes with everyone else on the same channel.

1joester2

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #42 on: September 22, 2011, 07:01:54 PM »
By walking around and viewing the signal strength?  I guess it could although it might only narrow it down to a few sites.  I haven't tried such yet just to see how responsive the signal bars are to change.   That is if the PDA only refreshes the signal strength every minute it might not be helpful.
My HP PDA has a real time monitor for signal strength. I used it once at a former employers site to locate a rouge router that another employee installed to provide broadband access to everyone on the production floor. The IT guys were quite frustrated since they did not authorize the installation and could not locate it. Turns out a 3rd shift employee installed it above the dropped ceiling.
By walking around monitoring signal strength, I can locate a router pretty easily.
Common sense to many of us is, unfortunately, the higher education some strive to attain.

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threeful

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #43 on: September 22, 2011, 07:23:50 PM »
I am not sure this is an individual rights issue as much as a property/business owner right to control:  his business.  No router rule is no different then CG owners barring:

Anyone under 55
Children
Pets
People who wear clothes
No Travel Trailers, 5th Wheels, Pop Ups, etc
No trailer over 32 ft
No generators after 10 PM

Where does the FCC state it is illegal for property owners to bar routers?
 
Bill T
Central PA
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FrankNSharon

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #44 on: September 22, 2011, 07:42:23 PM »
Quote
Where does the FCC state it is illegal for property owners to bar routers?

Actually just the opposite, the FCC regulates the routers transmitters, and was considering banning Wifi amplifiers like the Wilson, et al. because they interfere with others right to use the airwaves.

rikmac

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #45 on: September 22, 2011, 08:34:25 PM »

the FCC regulates the routers transmitters, and was considering banning Wifi amplifiers like the Wilson, et al. because they interfere with others right to use the airwaves.

I would be curious why the WAS did not become the MUST!  Maybe the answer we are seeking is within!!!
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NY_Dutch

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #46 on: September 22, 2011, 09:03:31 PM »
I've never seen a Wilson WiFi amplifier. They do make make cell service amplifiers though, which have been under review by the FCC. Verizon and at least one cell amplifier company have agreed on new tech specs they both can live with, and have presented them to the FCC for review.
Dutch
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SargeW

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #47 on: September 23, 2011, 12:35:04 AM »
This just sounds like a great example of "the sign of the times".  Used to be folks were upset with CBers messing up their analog TV signals in their homes.  Now it's WiFi and the right to surf the net.  We just have to find a way to get along. If anything the proliferation of wireless devices will just exacerbate the problem.  Gotta love progress..........
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Tony_Alberta

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #48 on: September 23, 2011, 12:41:01 AM »
My HP PDA has a real time monitor for signal strength. I used it once at a former employers site to locate a rouge router that another employee installed to provide broadband access to everyone on the production floor. The IT guys were quite frustrated since they did not authorize the installation and could not locate it. Turns out a 3rd shift employee installed it above the dropped ceiling.
By walking around monitoring signal strength, I can locate a router pretty easily.
Ok, that makes sense.    I should see how real time my Palm TX PDA as it's always with me.

My brothers favourite SSID on a jobs site was "Get your own darned WiFi"

Another is "RCMP surveillance van"  Or use FBI/CIA/NSA/state police.  Hmm, no wait.  IRS surveillance van.  Yeah, now that would get folks nervous.

On a related note.  I heard a story of a CEO who was in a meeting and having troubles with his wireless Internet in the meeting.  He berated the IT manager.   Turns out the CEO or a VP in a nearby office had installed a rogue WAP in their network and hadn't put a password on it.  Left the SSID as the default dlink or linksys or whatever so it became the default.   Trouble is the IT department had noticed a rogue device on the LAN so shut down it's network access.  But everyone could still see it and were trying to use it.   Or something like that.
« Last Edit: September 23, 2011, 12:43:01 AM by Tony_Alberta »

SCVJeff

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #49 on: September 27, 2011, 02:13:40 AM »
It's been too many years since my Amateur ax.25 packet equipment was on the air and I really knew how technically how they really played with others on the channel, but you all need to remember that a router does not take up, nor does it have exclusive use of the channel. The protocol simply doesn't work like that. Routers all look for other routers on the same channel, and will do that each and every time it transmits data. If it hears something, it stands by until it doesn't. Any packet comms are complicated, and stacking several routers on the same channel will slow things down if running Carbonite or watching YouTube, but one will NEVER see the difference doing email, basic surfing, etc. That assumes all the routers can hear each other so they can all play nice (and this is important). All those internal settings are tweaks to trim the units when working in close quarters by someone that knows how to tweak them. But factory defaults aren't bad.
« Last Edit: September 27, 2011, 02:17:19 AM by SCVJeff »
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Lou Schneider

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #50 on: September 28, 2011, 02:43:51 PM »
Quote
That assumes all the routers can hear each other so they can all play nice (and this is important).

And that's what causes problems in a campground situation.  A router takes twice as much airtime as a direct laptop to campground router connection.  You have to send the packet from the campground router to the individual, then his router uses the same amount of airtime to relay the packet to the laptop.

Then there's also hidden transmitter syndrome, where there are transmitters not under the control of a central router.  You wind up with packet collisions - multiple transmitters trying to send information at the same time.  The central router thinks the channel is clear, so it sends a packet at the same time an invisible laptop is responding to it's router.  Everything appears OK to the router users, but the poor guy stuck in a space within range of the laptop signal can't get a word in edgewise between the multiple packets arriving at his site.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 02:50:20 PM by Lou Schneider »

SCVJeff

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #51 on: September 28, 2011, 08:42:35 PM »
If you are referring to a REPEATER, then I agree. I was referring to a broadband router that lots of folks have.
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Lou Schneider

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #52 on: September 28, 2011, 09:50:20 PM »
Sorry, I missed that the router was fed from a Verizon aircard.  But my comments about it being a source of interference to the campground's wi-fi still apply.  Either the campground router will slow down while waiting for the other router to clear the air, or there will be packet collisions between the two uncoordinated systems extending well beyond the user's site.  Both of these may be invisible to the router user.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2011, 10:01:12 PM by Lou Schneider »

SCVJeff

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Re: Router not permitted in campground
« Reply #53 on: September 29, 2011, 12:46:36 AM »
Sorry, I missed that the router was fed from a Verizon aircard.  But my comments about it being a source of interference to the campground's wi-fi still apply.  Either the campground router will slow down while waiting for the other router to clear the air, or there will be packet collisions between the two uncoordinated systems extending well beyond the user's site.  Both of these may be invisible to the router user.
I wouldn't call it "interference" because that implies one jams the other, and that's where this thread was heading with people comparing this protocol to a broadcast hetrodyne type interference. Agreed that all things being equal, the routers are not running at their potential max because they are now sharing the same spectrum. But 'N' routers are so fast, up to 54M thruput, that even at 1/2 speed (27M),  is still 10+ times faster than a T1 off the street. The collisions are going to come from routers that can't hear each other, but one certainly don't kill the other as those collisions are going to cause packet re-tries the the routers will start adjusting their timings to avoid whatever it was that caused the re-try in the 1st place.

I run 1W on gain antennas at the house. Not because I'm working on distance or trying to rule the neighborhood, but to make sure the local area routers can hear me and will stand by and i'm now in rotation without collisions. IMO, if all CG users sharing a community router, and those on broadband local routers are doing typical surfing and email, it could take a significant number of co-channel users to really cause a problem. I've seen those numbers and even looking at the formula hurts my eyes..  And for the rest watching streaming video..  they deserve to get slammed for killing what incoming bandwidth there is off the street
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Jeff - WA6EQU
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