RV Parking Bans

Karl said:

ARVC is the only national association exclusively representing the interests of all commercial RV Parks and Campgrounds in the United States.

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Yup, says it all,,, NOT an orgination that is operating in OUR best interestes

While we were away I called the enforcement guy (see this message), explained that we were on vacation and asked for a 4 week extension, since I wasn't sure when we'd get home. He reluctantly agreed. Today we took the trailer to the storage lot where we store the coach, so we're now legal.

I noticed quite a few trailers and RVs still in folks' yards and today Chris heard an explanation. A number of residents have apparently decided to ignore the notice, let the escalating county enforcement actions take place, then take the county to court. If they win, we'll put the trailer back in our side yard. Meanwhile, we're not going to go through the legal wrangling.

Well the Billings city counsel has made a compromise agreement on the RV Parking bans.  IMHO in favor of the campground owners and against the RVer.  BILLINGS IS STILL ON MY DO NOT DO BUSINESS THERE LIST.  See the Billings Gazette article at:
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/03/10/opinion/gazette/50-gazetteopinion.txt

If you can only park for 6 hours, you don't really have time to sleep and you certainly don't have time to eat at one of their restaurants, shop in any of their stores, or visit any of their tourist attractions. Guess Billings stays on my "do not visit" list.

You know if I were working for ARVC's and KOA's competitors I couldn't come up with a better way to alienate their customers than what they have done with this whole issue.

How many thousands of RVers have we told about this and helped chase away from Billings and the campgrounds involved not counting the discussions on the SKP and other boards.??

It will take a LOT of new customers to make up for the ones they have lost. ???

You can tell from reading that Billings newspaper article that at least some of the people in that community are concerned about the effect this will have on their reputation and the tourist industry. The 12 hour modification would be a good compromise. This would allow someone to get a sleep break from the road, have a meal, and do a little shopping before traveling on.

Woody

I posted my own thoughts on the issue yesterday. Check it out.
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/03/10/opinion/gazette/50-gazetteopinion.txt

Karl said:

I posted my own thoughts on the issue yesterday. Check it out.
http://www.billingsgazette.net/articles/2006/03/10/opinion/gazette/50-gazetteopinion.txt

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Excellent article Karl, and from reading the other replies it seems we have a lot of company on this issue. This reminds me of the issue that occurred here in Indianapolis a few months ago. Several of the storage places around the area started a campaign within the City/County Council to make it illegal to park your RV or boat in your driveway. With a lot of help from the local FMCA chapter we were able to defeat the measure in Council.
KOA, and other campground owner affiliations have proven themselves too greedy for their own good.

Woody

Unfair City Ordinance and Vigilantes Lurking With Cameras

I bought a 27 foot 1974 Travco in the late fall of 2004 at Charleston, SC and brought it home to Pinehurst, NC, better known and advertised as the ?golf capital of the world? and home of the recent 2005 US Open.? I arranged for storage of my RV off my property on January 24, 2005.?

On January 27, 2005 I picked up a certified letter from the Village of Pinehurst dated January 20, 2005 reportedly due to a citizen complaint, stating I must remove the RV to a storage area within 5 days.? Failure to do so would result in a fine of $50 per day.? I called the city immediately to let them know I had put the RV in storage on January 24, 2005.? In addition, I asked how I could bring the RV home to get ready for trips, do minor restoration and maintenance, etc.? It was arranged I could bring the RV home for same for 48 hours upon e-mailing the city to let them know when I was bringing the RV home and when I would be returning it to storage.? If someone complained, we would have to do something else. This seemed a reasonable solution.

I called the city during the summer of 2005 to make sure everything was working out with our arrangement and was told that there was talk of reducing the time limit to 24 hours and that everyone owning an RV would be getting a letter stating same soon.? I thought 48 hours was reasonable, but 24 hours was not.? I never received said letter.? Anyway, I just kept emailing the city and doing the 48 hour thing as before.

After about 15 months of using the 48 hour arrangement, I received another letter on 3/30/06 reportedly due to a second citizen complaint.? Seems this citizen was mad at the city because he had to remove his utility trailer parked at his home so he took it upon himself to cruise the city looking for code violations and filing complaints.? Sadly, I had apparently brought our RV home on one weekend he was cruising.? In any event, the letter went on to say that now, if the RV is owned by the property owners, it may be kept on the property for no more than 12 hours for loading and unloading. And, it is accepted policy at the city that a citizen can shoot dated, digital pictures and give them to the city for them to use as evidence of violations and to issue citations.

Upon receipt of this letter I phoned the city to discuss the issues.? First, what had happened to cause the time limit to go from 48 hours to 24 hours to now to 12 hours in about a year, which I felt was unreasonable, unfriendly, and created very negative climate within our community.? I was told this was done at a city council meeting about the fall of 2005.? Reportedly, public notice was given in regard to this meeting and was attended by a few upset RV owners but the council passed it anyway.? I stated I never heard anything about this meeting or I would have obviously been there to put in my two cents worth.? And second, how come a vigilante with a chip on his shoulder is allowed to hang out in front of other citizen?s homes and take pictures.? I said in this day of terrorism, pedophiles, stalkers, perverts, molesters, registered sex offenders, etc., how in the world could this type of all around negative, and potentially dangerous policy be approved and adopted by the city.? I was told that this was done all over the country and was a fully acceptable method of operation.? Has anyone heard of this before?

Continuing, I decided to go down to city hall to obtain a copy of Pinehurst?s ORDINANCE #03-54 and to try to get a better understanding of the history of the reasons for the negative actions towards RVs and their owners over the years.? The present version of the ordinance was adopted on November 25, 2003.? It states, ?WHEREAS, the Village Council of the Village of Pinehurst finds that parking and storage of certain vehicles are detrimental to the appearance of the Village, adversely impact the value of property throughout the Village and are detrimental to tourism and the Village?s economic well being.?? Recreational vehicles are named further on in the document, apparently, as perpetrators of the above.? In addition the ordinance states, ?Commercial Vehicles, Oversized Vehicles (note, this is how RVs are classified) and Trailers shall not be parked or stored in any residentially zoned districts or on any public right of way adjacent thereto unless they are kept within a totally enclosed structure?.?

I asked about the 48, 24, or 12 hour exceptions and was told this time, contrary to their recent letter to me, the exemptions really didn?t exist but were used by code enforcement to handle individual circumstances.? And even though I was told about the 2005 council meeting on the phone yesterday, now I was told that no changes and/or exceptions were made to the existing ordinance adopted in 2003.? The actual written ordinance I just received a copy of did not allow for ANY EXCEPTIONS FOR RVs.?

So, given same, if anyone, property owner or visitor of a property owner or an RV traveler just wanting to spend some time and/or money and/or take in a game of golf or two, ever parks an RV on private property or on a public right of way within city limits for even a minute, they are subject to a $50 fine.? Thus, it seems one must check ones RV at the city limits so to speak or take it to the city suggested RV park, or pay $50 a day in fines.? The city suggested RV park is The Village of Pinehurst RV Park. Check it out at

http://www.pinehurstrvpark.com? .

At this juncture of my trying to understand the situation, I had a verbal confirmation of a 48 hour and a 24 hour exception, a 12 hour exception in writing, and now a verbal 0 hour exception.? One of the people I talked to didn?t know about the roaming vigilantes and agreed with me that it was not good and he would not accept citizen pictures as evidence.? I began to realize the reason for the all the confusion is that the city employees are trying to do their level best to deal with a public policy adopted by the city council that is so unreasonable that it can not be enforced fairly and, in my opinion, legally.? But remains just the same.? I feel sorry for those persons just trying to do their job under such trying circumstances.? I sensed they are trying to work with our citizens on both sides of the issue the best they can, without losing their jobs.?

I thanked them and mentioned that I was going to put this situation in the hands of the RVing public for their opinions and hopefully help. I said I had no beef with them personally, but I definitely took issue with what seems to be an unjust RV ordinance put in place by the city council and the use of angry vigilantes roaming around with cameras gathering evidence against their fellow citizens.?

Also, I have to note here that, ?Boats may be parked on private property for no more than seven days each month.?? I asked why boats were ok and RVs were not and was told the city didn?t want to curb recreation and wanted to give lakefront owners a break. Check it out at? ?.? ?

http://www.villageofpinehurst.org/departments/planning/information/code_enfocement.htm? .

Lastly, the council members including the mayor have no published email addresses but do publish their names and pictures.? See . http://www.villageofpinehurst.org/departments/council/VOP_dept_council.htm .?

The Village Manager, Andrew Wilkison?s email address is [email protected] . The city?s fax number is 910-295-1396.? The regular mailing address is:

The Village of Pinehurst
395 Magnolia Road
Pinehurst, NC 28374? ?
910-295-2581 (city hall)
910-295-1900 (city council)

I have 2 liver diseases and my significant other has had 3 cancer surgeries and subsequent radiation and cobalt treatments so we do not have the strength to deal with these ?city hall? issues alone.? We use our Travco as much as we possibly can and enjoy our time together in the wide open country fresh air so very much. Sandra and I would sure appreciate any help from our fellow RVers.?

Warmest regards,

Jeff and Sandra
Pinehurst, NC
[email protected]

I suggest you contact FMCA and the Good Sam Club, they have committees set up to address just such parking issues.

I don't know but it sounds like the next city council meeting would be a good place for a forum rally

A Zoning Board isn't subject to courtroom evidentiary rules, but you could protest that dated digital pictures are not considered valid proof of time since the date is easy to forge (just set a different date/time in the camera) and with somewhat more effort so is the picture itself. Probably nobody would bother to forge the picture itself for a matter like this, but who knows if maybe a neighbor has a grudge? It happens all the time...  You can always move the rig and take your own dated photo to show it isn't there.  :  I can see the city issuing a notice based on a citizen complaint with "evidence", but I find it hard to believe they would assess a fine without verification by a city official. And they think that's OK? Wow!

We lived in a gestapo community like that for 16 years, but the city inspectors always verified a complaint with personal observation. They also gave 72 hours to correct the volation, so when we needed a couple days of onsite parking we did it. If we got a notice of violation, we simply called in to notify them  the problem was resolved and the inspector would drive by and note for the record that the problem was resolved.

RV Roamer said:

We lived in a gestapo community like that for 16 years, but the city inspectors always verified a complaint with personal observation. They also gave 72 hours to correct the volation, so when we needed a couple days of onsite parking we did it. If we got a notice of violation, we simply called in to notify them? the problem was resolved and the inspector would drive by and note for the record that the problem was resolved.

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Thanks RV Roamer,

Bringing home the RV and getting it out after a few hours will not work here as they wrote me the following: "As you were sent a first and final notice dated January 20, 2005, the next notice would simply be a citation for $50.00."? So, it's one strike and your out.?

Regards, Jeff, Pinehurst, NC? ?

RV Roamer said:

We lived in a gestapo community like that for 16 years...

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I certainly agree with the sentiment. My city is getting more like this all the time. They want to regulate what you can park and where you can park it, and how short you have to cut your lawn, and where you can put your garbage cans, and a million other things that are none of their business.

I vaguely recall living in America where I could do what I wanted with my own land. I'd like my city manager to tell all the malcontents that call in to just mind their own business and look after their own driveways.

I'm afraid you've struck a nerve for me here, but I'll get off my soapbox now.

"As you were sent a first and final notice dated January 20, 2005, the next notice would simply be a citation for $50.00."  So, it's one strike and your out.

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Your city is tough!  But timing may have some affect - we never had repeat violations in a short time as you apparently did, all in less than 12 months if I read your messages correctly. Clearly you couldn't bring it home every few weeks to load up for weekend trips with the rules they have put in place. Real bummer.

FMCA and Good Sam have some advice on organizing a campaign to get such laws modified, but it's a political process. In my experience the zoning inspectors will enforce the letter of the law once notified of a violation, so you would need to get other RV-owners organizied to lobby their elected representatives for reasonable changes.

[edit]Fixed open tag[/edit]

UPDATE: Unfair Parking Ordinance ?

Thank you so much for your input and support concerning what I feel is an unfair parking ordinance in Pinehusrt, NC.  Apparently, consensus on this forum and other forums in order of content of most replies is the following:

1) RVers could organize to negotiate with the city to amend the present ordinance to include an exception for RVs owners, at the very least, to be able to park on their land for 48 to 72 hours to load, unload, wash, charge batteries, do minor maintenance, upkeep, etc.,

2) RVers around the country could let the city know they will not come to Pinehurst, NC until a more RV user friendly parking ordinance is adopted,

3) In the future, RVers could drum up support to vote in council members sympathetic to the Rvers point of view.

When I consider what this and other forums have offered, what strikes me most is that it appears RVers in many cities around the country are recreating the wheel over and over again in their quests to stop and/or change unfair parking ordinances in their cities.  And, even with ?wheel after wheel?, I think it?s wonderful that in most instances, after months and months of negotiations, Rvers seem to succeed with reasonable outcomes.  Also, on several RV forums, it seems a recent trend has been a few cities have changed their parking ordinances to be more ?user friendly? due to economic pressure from RVers from around the country.  This method seems to be successful as well.  I wonder how it would be if the two methods were used together? 

In Pinehurst, the ordinance states, ?The Village of Pinehurst finds that parking and storage of certain vehicles (note - RVs included) are detrimental to the appearance of the Village, adversely impact the value of property throughout the Village and are detrimental to tourism and the Village?s economic well being.?  And, ?Commercial Vehicles, Oversized Vehicles (note - this is how RVs are classified) and Trailers shall not be parked or stored in any residentially zoned districts or on any public right of way adjacent thereto unless they are kept within a totally enclosed structure.?  There are no exceptions!  Therefore, if RVers do not come to Pinehurst due to seemingly unfair and unfriendly parking restrictions aren?t the city leaders actually acting against the city?s stated mission by hurting tourism and their city?s economic well being? 

Given your much appreciated advice, my next steps will be to try to find a way to contact others that own RVs in Pinehurst and enlist the assistance of Good Sam Club, FMCA, etc.  Also, gather other ideas as to how the RVing folks around the country may be able to offer assistance via the Internet.  Thanks again for your interest and advice. And, thank you so much rvforum.net for the opportunity to address your readers.  Reader feedback has been wonderful, supportive and informative.   
   
Best regards to all,

Jeff and Sandra
Pinehurst, NC
[email protected]

tazcatt said:

UPDATE: Unfair Parking Ordinance ?
In Pinehurst, the ordinance states, ?The Village of Pinehurst finds that parking and storage of certain vehicles (note - RVs included) are detrimental to the appearance of the Village, adversely impact the value of property throughout the Village and are detrimental to tourism and the Village?s economic well being.?  And, ?Commercial Vehicles, Oversized Vehicles (note - this is how RVs are classified) and Trailers shall not be parked or stored in any residentially zoned districts or on any public right of way adjacent thereto unless they are kept within a totally enclosed structure.?  There are no exceptions!  Therefore, if RVers do not come to Pinehurst due to seemingly unfair and unfriendly parking restrictions aren?t the city leaders actually acting against the city?s stated mission by hurting tourism and their city?s economic well being? 

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Humm... from the sounds of this one could not park a SEMI truck full of BEEF in back of the Supermarket so it could be unloaded if there is a street running behind it and houses on the other side of the street. 

Could be interesting...

Is there really such a thing as a "forum rally" at a city council meeting?  That would also be interesting? 

tazcatt said:

Is there really such a thing as a "forum rally" at a city council meeting?  That would also be interesting? 

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What I'm talking about is a bunch of folks who are either members of this forum, or should be (RVers) packing the hall, or Perhaps a million dollars worth of rolling stock (or more) in the parking lot might make a point too.

Recently I was talking with someone about a housing development which was in the neighborhood of where we were parked... This is a new development which is for "Built in place or high-end manufactured" homes only, NO RVs.

I inquired as to how high end manufactured housing got (house trailer)  We figured 100K would be the high end

100K happens to be the low end on Class A motor homes (Not the absolute bottom but very close)

Hi Guys

Anyone know if we can park overnight at Walmart in Billings ?

Is it 6hrs, 12 hrs, unlimited or not allowed at all.

Thanks
Paul