OOPS GVWR GCVWR Does it Matter - A leson learned

[Ron]

On our way to the China Date Ranch South of Tecopa, CA we found the road blocked by a jackknifed truck and trailer and was flagged down by a very excited but worried gentleman.  Seems he did not have enough power to pull his trailer up the hill and then it started rolling backwards with the brakes locked and tires sliding as they went backwards.  Luckily the trailer turned into the hillside rather than the other way and into the draw.  Al told him not to worry we would just pull him out and to the top of the hill.  The guy questioned if we would be able to do that to which Al replied oh sure this is a Jeep.  We hooked on the tow strap and pulled him out and up the hill with absolutely no difficulty. 

Attached photos to show what can happen.

All turned out well in this case.

[Smoky]

Oh my!  That was not a very large trailer either!

[Ron]

Oh my!  That was not a very large trailer either!

Looked like he had a lot of stuff in the truck too. Just too much weight for the truck to pull up the hill.

[Carl L]

Looking at that rig, I see a small, light single axle trailer and an old, maybe 1970s or 80s truck probably of the F150, 1500 class.   Worse yet I see a high rise camper shell which implies a big load in the bed of the truck.   The coup d' gras is a gravel road -- low traction on what are probably street usage tires.   Nothing for brakes to hang on to so to speak -- locked tires sliding along the gravel/sand.  Disaster waiting to happen.

I have seen trailers on back roads.   The last one I saw was a 19 footer being driven by a couple of ranch women on a spring roundup in Capitol Reef NP.  The truck was an F250 with off road tires.   The traiiler tires were equally aggresively treaded.

Anyrate,  I am stickying this horror story.    Thanks for posting it.

[Ron]

The guy mentioned he had been there last year and had no problem coming out.  He probably didn't have as much weight last year. Fortunately no one was hurt and no serious damage occurred, other than the mess in the front seat maybe.

[Carl L]

The guy mentioned he had been there last year and had no problem coming out.  He probably didn't have as much weight last year. Fortunately no one was hurt and no serious damage occurred, other than the mess in the front seat maybe.

The upholstery will dry out in no time.   

[Ron]

It had to be a scary situation brakes locked up but still being dragged bacwards down the hill with no control over what was happening. 

[Carl L]

It had to be a scary situation brakes locked up but still being dragged bacwards down the hill with no control over what was happening. 

Bet your bippy.  Happened to me in a car.  In San Francisco when I was a college boy.  At the top of a long hill.   Brakes faded when I came  to a stop at a sign.   Pedal went to the floor and stayed there.   The car started rolling backwards down the hill.  I tried to stop it by squeezing against the curb, but the speed was too high by then and I jumped the curb, I cut the well hard right and crashed into the gargage abutment of a house and came to a halt about 100 yards down the hill.    That was about 2 weeks after a truck had runaway and took out a dozen people on Grant Ave. in Chinatown.   That was the only wreck I have been in where the cops congratulated me.

[dusty4x4]

Folks,
Something else to consider. A lot of trucks have disk brakes on front and drums on the back. I had a very similar problem with a 3/4 T burb and a 6000# boat. This vehicle has the largest of the 3 brake sizes that come on a 88 burb, they NEVER have a stopping problem. When backing down a wet slick boat ramp on Lake Powell I ended up with the front wheels locked and the rear drums doing nothing. I just continued sliding down hill towards the water at about 3 mph. The problem is the rear drums are set as in a dual leading shoe config. - they just don't brake well in reverse. Front disks were working VERY well in reverse. I finally got off the brakes so I could steer till I hit the water. 
(Wife in boat later ask, gee, why were you coming down the ramp so fast :-)  )

PS - I'm still surprised that even a F150 could not pull that small a trailer up what doesn't appear to be a bad grade ?

[Ron]

Looks are deceiving as it was a pretty good grade plus he had the back of the truck loaded too so was pretty heavy.  The brakes worked alright just looking at the skid marks  you could see where all 4 wheels were locked up.  Had to be a very uncomfortable feeling being pulled backwards, brakes locked up, and no control over what direction you might take during the ride backwards .  If the trailer would have went the other direction it would have dragged him over the edge and down a 10 15 foot draw.

[Carl L]

And that truck was old, at least 20 maybe 30 years old.   The body style is definitely pre-1990.   Its drive train has got to have aged along with it -- engine and tranny.    I guarantee the rear brakes were drum and would give short odds on the front being drum also.   Pulling power of anything does not improve with age, trucks and people both.

[Griff]

...and it doesn't have a bowtie!!!  <grin>

[Karl]

I guarantee the rear brakes were drum and would give short odds on the front being drum also.

Right on, Carl - and drums don't do diddiley (sp?) in reverse - unless they're dual cylinder; which they aren't.

[72Blazerod]

The truck definitely wasn't brand new.  Looking at the grille, the newest is could possible have been was a 1979 (it could have been as old as a 1973 with a newer 78-79 grille swapped in).  They change the entire body style in 1980.  So the truck was at least 27 years old.

Rod

[Lou Schneider]

The trailer brakes were probably ineffective - electric brakes work by moving the brake shoes outward when an electromagnet drags against the  FORWARD rotation of the brake drum.  When the drum turns backwards there's little or no brake action.

[Ron]

Hadn't really thought about the trailer brakes being ineffective in reverse but you are absolutely correct.  So only the truck brakes would do much good which wasn't enough.  What a ride backwards.

[motojavaphil]

Very scary situation!  Having the right tools for the right job sure matters here.  I wonder if he had a six cylinder in that old truck which would have compounded the problem!  Glad you were there to help him.  You didn't offer him a TL Towing Guide did you?

[chaajoad]

I gotta tell ya - these photos and the story will give me nightmares tonight. Until I decided to buy a pre-owned (ok, "used") MH, I almost bought a TT. I was looking at rigs weighing 4500-5000 lbs with a 2000 Explorer V-6 (two door) to pull. Despite sales people assuring me, my gut was telling me that my Explorer was never meant to tow that much weight. And those weights - as you know - are for bone dry units.

This post tells me I did the right thing. Maybe I could have gotten away with it for short hauls over level ground. But any hills, rough weather, etc - and I would have been in way over my depth.

Danny

[Carl L]

Well if you had the SOHC V6 with a 3.98 to 4.10 rear end and a heavy duty towin package with a 5900lb tow rating,  you might have skinned by with a 4500 lbs dry weight trailer.  However, I would have my doubts about it in the mountain west.

Nothing replaces knowing what you are doing by getting good information.

[Lou Schneider]

Wanna to see the video?

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8108076307279476521&q=trailer+on+a+hill&hl=en

[MTRancher]

I can't help but think some of this had to do with the driver also!

[ai guy]

I may be wrong, but I've always thought that, as a general rule, 1/2 tons are worthless for towing anything bigger than a snowmobile trailer.

[Carl L]

I may be wrong, but I've always thought that, as a general rule, 1/2 tons are worthless for towing anything bigger than a snowmobile trailer.

You are wrong.  The F-150 can be an excellent tow vehicle -- for trailers within its capabilities.  Light and converntionally hitched trailers.  Trailers over a GVWR of, say, 5500 lbs or a 5th wheel units should be moved up to F-250s or more.

[Lowell]

I agree with Carl.  I have a Dodge 1500 1/2 ton and pull a 28 ft lite TT with gusto. I've pulled it through the mountains of Colorado over 10,000 ft and had no problems maintaining decent speed and good handling.  A 1/2 ton is fine if you stay "comfortably" within the GVWR GCVWR limits of the truck. That means one needs to consider the "lite" trailer models or the smaller length models.

[Wendy]

Mom and Dad full-timed for over 10 years with a 35-foot 5th wheel and a 1/2 ton Ford (Yes, FORD) with nary a problem. Now they have a 24-foot 5er and still have a 1/2-ton but now it's a Chevy.

[dan992]

  I pull a 27' Prowler with an unladen weight of 5700lbs. WIth all the propane and all the stuff inside I'd guess it weighs in around 6000. My truck is a 1/2 ton 2006 Chevy Silverado 4x4...4.8 litre engine... with a maximum towing weight of 6400. Living here in the Adirondacks of NY with all these mountains I haven't had a problem going or stopping. I usually tow in regular drive (not overdrive) and have only used the towing switch a couple times. I've had a slight loss of speed on some of the longer uphill grades. My next truck I'll get the 5.3 litre engine ...More Power !

[motojavaphil]

Ron, Just a quick question on GVWR.  When they do the GVWR on a 5r do they do that with all tanks full, including propane?  I got to looking at some numbers and was surprised.  Water is about 8lbs per gallon so if you had a 100 gallon freshwater tank that is 800lbs. 
Thanx, Phil

[Karl]

Phil,

Here are the definitions of GVWR and Curb Weight. As you can see, only the curb weight is an actual weight measurement, and even it does not include water, propane, etc. - just your base vehicle weight with fuel. It may or may not be a true weight, but represents what a standard, base model of that unit should weigh. Each rig is not weighed individually. The GVWR is not an actual measurement but simply a not-to-exceed, calculated number. I'm sure Gary or Carl will correct me if I got anything wrong. Oh, and water is 8.3lbs/gal and propane is 4.2lbs/gal.

Gross Vehicle Weight Rating (GVWR)
The maximum allowable weight of the fully loaded vehicle (Base Curb Weight plus options plus cargo plus passengers). The vehicle's measured GVW must never exceed the GVWR. The GVWR along with other maximum safe vehicle weights, as well as tire, rim size and inflation pressure are shown on the vehicle's Safety Compliance Certification Label, located on the left front door lock facing or the door latch post pillar.

Base Curb Weight 
Weight of the vehicle including a full tank of fuel and all standard equipment. It does not include driver, passengers, cargo or any optional equipment.

[Johncmr]

Just a suggestion to all.  Get the rig set up as you would for a "normal" trip, full water, food, enough clothes for the wife to live for 13 years and full fuel tanks (propane and tow vehicle)..  Go to any of the truck stops with a scale and weigh 1) the truck with trailer hitched, then 2) pull forward and weigh the whole rig. 

Pay the scale fee, and A) save the print out knowing you are within the design limits of the truck, hitch etc. or B) with check book in hand, head for the dealer to get a larger tow vehicle.

Folks, I can guarantee that what you think you are towing is not what's actually back there!

Johncmr

[Wendy]

Johncmr, You forgot C) Start throwing things away, starting with 5 years worth of the wife's clothes.

Wendy
Cortez Colorado