OOPS GVWR GCVWR Does it Matter - A leson learned

[Karl]

Just a suggestion to all.  Get the rig set up as you would for a "normal" trip, full water, food, enough clothes for the wife to live for 13 years Smiley and full fuel tanks (propane and tow vehicle)..  Go to any of the truck stops with a scale and weigh 1) the truck with trailer hitched, then 2) pull forward and weigh the whole rig.

Modification: Weigh just the two front wheels of the truck before weighing the whole truck - That'll give you rear axle weight. Also weigh trailer without truck on scale. That'll allow you to derive pin/hitch weight.

[Carl L]

Just a suggestion to all.  Get the rig set up as you would for a "normal" trip, full water, food, enough clothes for the wife to live for 13 years and full fuel tanks (propane and tow vehicle)..  Go to any of the truck stops with a scale and weigh 1) the truck with trailer hitched, then 2) pull forward and weigh the whole rig. 

Pay the scale fee, and A) save the print out knowing you are within the design limits of the truck, hitch etc. or B) with check book in hand, head for the dealer to get a larger tow vehicle.

Folks, I can guarantee that what you think you are towing is not what's actually back there!

Johncmr

More than that.  We have a file in the library that gives he procedure for a complete weighing of a traler.  To see click  HERE.

[Rickster]

Dang folks this has got me to thinking. Now I have an 06 F-150 and it has disk brakes front and rear. But the issue of the trailer brakes being ineffective in reverse is worriesome at best. I tow a 5000 to 5500 lb, loaded trailer, and almost every time I am in the hills. Sometimes on dirt roads with a grade. I do have good all terrain tires on the truck, and good tires on the trailer. I often have my wife, myself, & one golden retriever, and about 300 lbs in the bed of the truck. I have pulled 10% grades on pavement, going over the pass between Victor, Idaho and Jackson Hole, Wyoming. My truck worked hard but made it over without stopping.
It would be a quick nightmare, to realize when you have to stop on a 10% grade, that your rig is pulling you backwards off a 1000 ft cliff! 

[Ron]

The important consideration is whether or not you are within you weight limits.  When one exceeds the weight limits for their rig thay are placing themselves, anybody with them, and anybody around them in Jepardy. The guy that got pulled backwards was very likely over loaded since he had quite a load in the back of the pickup in addition to the trailer.

[Bocephys]

I have a 2001 Bobkat bumper pull that shows a dry weight of 5360 #.  With all tanks empty except potentially 60 # of propane, the rig with front jack block weighs 5720 #.  Sure need to weigh them on certified scales.

About steep gravel hills.  Was at a bluegrass festival in Hugo Oklahoma, had to camp underneath a very steep gravel hill.  Truck was a Toyota tacoma v6 4x4, camper was a 77    25' powler (weight about 5000#).  When we left I put the tacoma in high range 4wd and got out and locked the hubs in.  Was raised in them thar hills so I knew enough to have all the momentum needed to climb the hill when I reached the bottom of it.  I do this by hitting fast and decelerating as I climb thus not letting the tires break traction, ideally, you will have only enough umph to crest the hill with little or no throttle applied.  What I was unaware of until I reached the top was a group of beer drinking spectators (20 or so) giving me a HUGE applause.

It occurred to me after it was over that they had all taken bets as to if I would make the hill or go sliding back down to the bottom in a heap.  By the way, my wife, got out and walked to the top of the hill.  All breaking issues a side, a good positive locking 4x4 should be part of any tow package that is going to be used on gravel and hills.

Bo
 

[boxermom]

Can someone tell me what the gross combined weight rating is? am a women and new at this LOL 


Thanks
Karen
Boxer Daisy

[Tom]

Karen, from our Glossary of RV Terms ....
Gross Combined Weight Rating (GCWR):

The maximum allowed weight for a vehicle with all of its contents and passengers along with the weight of any towed vehicle and its contents.
Hope that helps.

[redbug2]

Reminds me of a close call I had with my flatbed trailer...

Took my brother-in-laws wife's explorer to pick up an old 8n ford tractor... Used my 16 foot trailer. The trailer is cheap and does not have leveling jacks or ramps with feet, I usually blocked up the back of the trailer with logs.. Anyway, on this trip we went to pick up the tractor on a property that was on a hill... Put the ramps down, started driving the poorly running 8n up on the trailer. The trailer tilts down, the rear of the Explorer tilts up, and then starts sliding down the hill toward a tree... I yelled back to my brother-in-law to put it in reverse and back it off... Thankfully it kept running and backed off... The explorer hopped a few times and missed the tree by 2 feet.

So, related to the story at the beginning of this thread, I feel that the TT could have been improperly balanced....? Could have  had the water tanks fulll, and if they were in the rear of the trailer the center of weight would changed once the trailer was on an incline, therefore taking weight off of the rear wheels of the truck...... Now that I think about it, even if loaded properly, a steep incline would probably shift a portion of the weight off of the hitch... taking the weight off of the wheels, making the truck slide back......

Was the truck in the initial story underpowered and unable to climb the hill or were the tires spinning?

With trailers, hills bring the risk level up. Now after reading this story, if I ever end up on a big gravel hill I believe I will lock my 4x4 hubs in just to be safe... and also think about a back up/bail out plan should the units start sliding backward....

 

[Ron]

Reminds me of a close call I had with my flatbed trailer...

Was the truck in the initial story underpowered and unable to climb the hill or were the tires spinning?

The truck appeared to be underpowered for the load.  The truck had a shell on the back and it appeared to be full of who knows what.  When the truck powered out the driver attempted to the reverse movement using the brakes.  Appeared all four tires were locked up but sliding.  Have no idea what he had in the trailer or how it was loaded.  The guy did indicate he had no problem the time before when he came out of the same place.  But he may not have had the stuff in the back of the pickup.

[Carl L]

The guy did indicate he had no problem the time before when he came out of the same place.

Translation:   The twit had managed to skin by before.    This time the odds caught up with him.

[Ron]

Translation:   The twit had managed to skin by before.    This time the odds caught up with him.

Based on how shook up he appeared I hope he learned a lesson.

[BigLarry]

Back in the early 70's, I had an 65 chevy truck that had a good v-8 engine, but it had a three speed on the column transmission.  I sometimes pulled a jeep on a lowboy trailer.  It handled good and had plenty of power, unless you were going slow and let the rpm get too low.  First gear in that transmission had such a high ratio that if you were going up a hill and let the rpm's get too low, it would bog down and you could never get it going again.  Also, there were no sycronizers in first gear, so it was almost impossible to get from second down to first quickly if you made an error and started up a hill in second.  I learned real quick that this was not the ideal tow vehicle!!!!  If I'd had a good ole 4-speed with a compound first gear or an automatic it would have made the grades.

Now days there should be few excuses for getting into a pickle like that.

Larry

[fmoore]

I think it's important to never get complacent when it comes to towing our rigs and what is even more scarier is how some dealerships give you the wrong information!  Case in point - when we were looking to move from a pop-up to a TT (and definitely newbies at this point), we were told our v6 Ford Escape could tow the 25' TT we were looking at.  The tow capacity on the Escape is 3500 lbs.  So, being newbies, we took the man for his word and was very excited about our soon-to-be new purchase.  Well, when we got home we looked at the brochure for the TT and it said it's dry weight was 3800lbs!  So, I went back to the dealership and they dbl checked and they said, "nope, that's over your limit".  Well DUH we thought and why didn't your salesperson know this to begin with.  So, we went back to the same dealership a year later and this time with a Ram 1500 I had purchased looking to upgrade our lemon Starcraft TT (that's a entirely diff fiasco!).  So, the guy looked at the Ram and looked it up and said my towing capacity was 5800 lbs - which to me, sounded right.  And seeing I saw him looking up the specs of the truck, I took him for his word.  Well, low and behold we go to another dealership and the salesman there asked me more details about the Ram 1500, such as: tow package?, gear ratio?, etc.  So, I checked, and yep, there was the transmission cooler and confirmed with Dodge that the gear ratio was 3:92 as opposed to 3:73 I believe.  So that made a huge diff in our towing capacity - which we found out is 7400 compared to 5800!  My fiance often remind ourselves how PO'd we'd be if we went with a TT based on 5800 and not based on 7400!  Right now we're pulling a 33' Rockwood Ultra Lite with a dry weight around 5900 and always assume we're loading too many extras like firewood, etc., and we minimize as much as possible just to be on the safe side and we know that we'd really be straining the Ram if we were to go into dense mountains so we stick to "flatter" trips! 

[droth12]

Always roll with a Duramax

[BigLarry]

I agree about the Duramax.  The new turbo design does an good job of engine braking.  I sure do like mine, however the best part of the package is the Allison double overdrive six transmission!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Ron]

While the Duramax and Allison transmission makes a good combination it does not negate the need to remain within the DOT weight ratings for the truck.  Exceeding the weight ratings is both dangerous and illegal regardless of what an individual thinks.

[wilfreddrabble]

Can someone tell me what the gross combined weight rating is? am a women and new at this LOL 


Thanks
Karen
Boxer Daisy

OK, Karen, here's a made up scenario that replicates something you might run across in the real world:

Imagine a pickup truck that weighs 5500 pounds empty and has a GCVWR of 12,000 pounds. In that case, allowing for a 10% safety factor, the highest GVWR trailer that you should tow with that truck is 5300 pounds, based on the following assumptions:

10% safety factor, as I said

Actual weight of the truck full of fuel, driver & passenger, misc extras like tools & toys: 6100 pounds.

So the calculation is: 12,000 pounds (GCVWR) minus 5500 pounds, minus 600 pounds (fuel & passengers) equals 5900 pounds, minus 600 pounds (10% safety factor) equals 5300 pounds, maximum GVWR for the trailer.

It's a simple calculation, made obtuse by jargon, really.

John Alldredge, who HAS towed some overweight trailers in his time but isn't proud of it.

[Concreterocks]

It seems like about once a year, I got spend a Friday afternoon sitting in a paking lot on I-5, for a similar reason when I lived in Seattle.  Usually it was some poor fool that thought things would be just fine if  they towed a large boat or camping trailer with their very tough (but not very heavy) SUV.  With out fail, traffic would stop suddenly and when they hit their brake hard, the trailer just pushed that tough SUV's butt right in front of it's nose.   I am certain that this could have been avoided with the proper use of trailer brakes, but just the same the I always cringe when I see lite vehicles towing heavy trailers.  Just because your engine and transmission will pull doesn't mean it's a good idea.  If you get into a sittuation with slick roads (rain, snow, gravel, fuel spill, etc...) the more weight you have for your tow vehicle the better off you are.  Once that trailer locks up and starts trying to pass you, its best if you have enough muscle to push back a bit.

[papahog]

That is what I am afraid of with my rig.  But I have been in two panic stops and the trailer brakes kept it behind me.  Good thing or the dang horse would not have been happy.

[caissiel]

I bought my 1st, 24 ft Fleetwood 5th wheel trailer 4300Lbs empty, in 93 and towed it home with a 86 Ford Ranger with a 2.3L 4 Cylinder Engine.  I never went under 50MPH on 3rd in the hills, and mostly drove 55 all the way home.  I traded the truck on a 88 STX 2.8L Ranger and drove this unit for 3 years. Drove down to Florida 3 times with no problems.  Had to shift to 3 rd in the hills so the clutch would not heat up and slip.  But I still past the transports in the hills at 55MPH.  But I came to an emergency stop and all 8 wheels slid on the pavement until I stopped.  After I was looking at my rear tires and noticed rubber on my tire balancing weights, indicating the tires turned on the rims. Its then I realized I was definitely under sized truck.  My C1500 Gm Diesel was not as good in the hill but it did the hauling of the same trailer quit well.   
One day I was at a campground and one camper asked me to undo the nuts on his back wheels because he could not check the torque. They looked really hard to turn.  Well I was able to undo one nut and told him to get a 2500 series truck because his 1500 dodge did not have enough studs on the rear wheels to haul a 5th wheel.  All his rear studs had stripped threads,  A Dodge 1500 has the same wheel studs as my Ranger had.  And they claim these trucks can haul a 9000Lbs 5th wheel.  When a 5th wheel corners the weight on the outside wheel could be 2 to 3 times more pressure.  Its not the pull that count its the stop and steer.  I told him I would not leave the campground with that setup, he told me he bought the truck and camper from a trailer dealer.  Well they were wrong and I told him to go see them and get a Dodge 2500 if he wanted to survive the trip across Canada.  He was on his first 100 miles of his trip at the point.
My 1500 GM was 1000 lbs less then my 2500, all the weight difference was in the frame and running gear like brakes .   
I feel much better on the road with my 5th wheel with 11000 lbs , and a 6800 lbs truck. now I have
8800LBS on the trailer wheels and 9000lbs on the truck.
When my friends tell me they can haul a heavy 5th wheel with their 1/2 tons I just grin, and say been there before.  My big trailer is much safer on the road then any 1/2 ton trying to haul any size 5th wheel.
They are now building lighter trailers, a friend of mine told me he tipped his lightweight trailer on the highway in Florida, he survived because he had a GM 2500 and the truck did not tip.  I would never own or drive the new light weight because they are to light for the highway condition that exists.  They are just like a billboard and the wind just takes then in flight.  My heavy 24ft 5th wheel was very stable, and with the right truck it was great. The heavy on the truck the better the setup.

I have lots more but for now its enough.

[sjs2657]

Actually, looking at the photos, I see a 25 year old truck with drum brakes in the rear [and possibly the front]. Also it looks like a two wheel drive [actually single wheel drive]. That being said, momentum declining around a corner and a steep enough incline angle, any truck, or car without four wheel drive would be at a loss to PULL the trailer up the hill. Not to mention the LOW transfer case gearing. The mention of the brakes is because drum brakes only work correctly going FORWARD also towing a weight lifts weight off the front limiting proper braking of front brakes.

[GKman]

A lovely spot.  Can you provide the co-ordinates so I can add to my must-visit list.

[navyshooter]

I've always subscribed to the notion to buy more truck than you think you'll ever need. I put over 100k towing miles on my '98 Dodge 2500 V-10 4x4. 22' gooseneck w/ empty weight of 6300#'s. I would regularly have around 12k lbs on trailer. Never had issue one. Very tough truck, I ordered it with all the heavy duy options, plus had airbags and upgraded brakes. I spec'd out the gooseneck with 3 axles/single wheels as opposed to 2 axles/dual wheels and brakes on all axles. Even emergency stops loaded heavy was never a problem. It's all about driving style, keeping your wits about you, not getting in a hurry.

[PancakeBill]

Ron,  wren't you over the GCVWR of the Jeep?

[Mastermtn]

On our way to the China Date Ranch South of Tecopa, CA we found the road blocked by a jackknifed truck and trailer and was flagged down by a very excited but worried gentleman.  Seems he did not have enough power to pull his trailer up the hill and then it started rolling backwards with the brakes locked and tires sliding as they went backwards.  Luckily the trailer turned into the hillside rather than the other way and into the draw.  Al told him not to worry we would just pull him out and to the top of the hill.  The guy questioned if we would be able to do that to which Al replied oh sure this is a Jeep.  We hooked on the tow strap and pulled him out and up the hill with absolutely no difficulty. 

Attached photos to show what can happen.

All turned out well in this case.

Realize this is very old post....but do you still have the photos as they do not seem to be attached any longer?

Thanks,

Rich

[Tom]

The photos are still attached to Ron's original message.