Towing

Tom said:

I believe the U.S. Gear system includes a vacuum pump, so I assume that is the source of the vaccuum assist.

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Tom

Wouldn't that require a toad power supply, perhaps causing a run down battery? And since a vacuum is a negative air supply  ;D, I would presume that a 125# psi would provide equivalent, or better, power.

As I said, I am not that familiar with US Gear and don't know all the nuances of it's system, but I do recommend it, based on the positive reactions here on the Forum, to those for whom I don't think that the M&G is the better fit.

Bernie,

I don't know much about the U.S. Gear solution either, beyond the fact that I distilled some information into the article in our library. Their system components diagram sure looks complex though. Maybe it's because I like simple solutions that I didn't choose this option. I'm certainly not a mechanical engineer (spent most of my career in electronic hi tech), so I really can't comment on the parts of the system or their effectiveness. But, when I was previously made aware of the option, I promptly gave it due space in the article.

Tom said:

Maybe it's because I like simple solutions

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Can't get much simpler than the Apollo or Brake buddy.  When the towed needs to be slowed or stopped, it pushes the brake pedal.  No intrusion into either vehicle systems to install either.  Can't get much simpler than that.

No disagreement Ned, although we could debate it for a long time  ;D

As I've mentioned previously, both in this discussion and several others, we had a very bad experience with a "box", specifically the BrakePro manufactured by Roadmaster. A long story previously reported in detail (here's the short version). By the time I was ready to use it as a boat anchor, we were going to be within 30 miles of Athens, TX where M&G Engineering is located. A friend who had read about my BP problems offered to let me take his installation appointment and I readily accepted.

I have no doubt that, if I'd first bought the Brake Buddy or the Apollo, I would not have been looking for an alternative. OTOH I really like the M&G - no box to put in and out of the car and no box to store  ;D

The M&G is not what I would call a simple solution, but it does work.

>> The post/replies are getting too long to try and work with them individually, but I'll try and sum up.
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I agree, Bernie. There is enough info posted for a reader to make up their own mind. So I'll just make final comment on the points you seem to misunderstand. ?

Bernie said>> First and foremost, when you are driving down the road and you come into a braking situation, you don't have time to start playing around with brake controls. You step on the brake pedal and keep both hands on the steering wheel.

Bernie said>> Having the adjustments you admire are not something I would want on my brake system. The brake pad wear that you would incur using your supplemental brakes when driving thru a campground over the life of the pads is insignificant. By having increased pressure on your toad brakes while descending a mountain could overheat them and make them useless. Advantage to US Gear-None
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To argue against total control of your braking system from the cockpit is hard for me to understand. Just as you look down to notice other gages on your panel indicating a potential problem -- the USG display let's you know "every" time you press your brake pedal whether or not your brakes are working and how much they are working (it's not a single lite, but rather a progression of lites). Just as with the other displays on your dash, it is designed to prevent a bad situation vs. something that is done during a bad situation. Plus it gives gain adjustment ability and manual toad braking as well. If my battery is not charging, I pull over. If my engine is overheating, I pull over. If my toad brakes are not functioning, I pull over.

Yes, RV parks -- or "any" situation where I spend hours and/or miles and miles in stop and go traffic on level ground pressing the toad brakes every time I have to stop or slow down. But how "I" adjust is not the issue. The issue is that the ability "to adjust" is there from the cockpit and is not with M&G.

>> You seem to confuse power assist with effective braking. If your engine isn't running, you have no power assisted brakes. However, the air pressure provided by the air line to the M&G is the equal to the equivalent of power braking. Seems to me to be advantage-M&G.
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Actually, I DO have power assist -- in the rig and in the toad. The toad engine does not have to be running. A USG 12 volt vacuum pump is mounted in the engine compartment of the towed vehicle that replenishes ?the vacuum to the towed vehicle's power brake booster (so keeps it ready) each time the brake pedal is depressed. BIG DISadvantage M&G. In 9 years, it has "never" run my toad battery down.

>> If you can lock up the coach brakes by maximum application of the brake pedal, the M&G will lock up the car's brakes as well. But why would your want to lock up the brakes? You lose braking effectiveness when you do. That is why ABS brakes now come on all vehicles, so you don't lock up your brakes.
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OK -- just use the cockpit control to apply the brakes manually to whatever degree the driver sees fit. Again, "having that ability" whatever the probability of it's need across types of rigs is the issue. There with USG, and not with M&G.

So, that's where we are. IMHO, and from USG advertising and other literature (if not the case, am sure they would have been called on it by now), M&G does not have the three features I originally posted and is why the USGear system has these advantages over M&G:

o Uses the power assist brakes on the toad (including breakaway).
o Applies both proportional "and" progressive braking.
o Has rig driver display and control.

It's been fun as usual Bernie. Enjoy Moab . . .

BernieD said:

Wouldn't that require a toad power supply, perhaps causing a run down battery? And since a vacuum is a negative air supply  ;D, I would presume that a 125# psi would provide equivalent, or better, power.

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Good catch Bernie, yes it does, however this turns out to be solution more than problem, at least in my case, You missed it when I told you about it.

When I pulled out of Detroit Jan, 2, 2006 I checked my lights,  Everything worked EXCEPT the tail lights on the towed, for some reason (Burned out wire under the coach) they were not lighting.

Wheelers RV in Las Vegas fixed it while Simpson Glass (their contracted glass man) fixed the windshield, I give great reviews to both Wheelers and Simpsons.

So, how did I drive 2,000 miles with no tail lights?  Simple, I pressed the button in the Lumina (Towed) and turned them on at the towed end... So, why did this not run down the battery?

Simple,  the USGear system has a 2 wire lead that connects the towed to the tower,  One wire is control and communication, the other is power, a 40 amp circuit breaker at each end protects the batteries and when you are connected the battery on the towed is directly connected to the coach (Chassis) battery on the towing vehicle

This is to power the vaccume assist pump

By the way,  My coach has power assist on the brakes when not running too.. Same kind of thing, electric pump, only this time it's not USG it's Workhorse

John In Detroit said:

.... the other is power, a 40 amp circuit breaker at each end protects the batteries and when you are connected the battery on the towed is directly connected to the coach (Chassis) battery on the towing vehicle

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I missed that too John - wasn't looking for it. I see it now when I look at the drawing. Sure makes sense.

I did the same thing out of desperation with the BP box, but it wasn't sufficient to prevent the toad battery from draining after relatively few miles. Clearly, the BP was drawing lots of current. Of course, all that went away with the M&G - no power cords to connect or plug in. Just connect/disconnect a simple air hose. I understand why the M&G wouldn't work for you though.

John In Detroit said:

Thanks Bob, I too never understood the difference.

BTW, There is a way to adjust the porportion of braking power applied to towed/towing with the M&G system but it is not user adjustable.... Has to be done at the design level,

There may be other ways too..(Including a user adjustable one) I don't know, I'd have to talk to my brother about that, He knows a whole lot more about air brakes than I do being as I'm a certified ELECTRONICS technician and he is a certified Truck mechenic and operator?

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You're welcome, John. Glad you saw my response to Bernie on that. Most systems give some degree of "the harder you push the rig brakes, the harder the toad brake is pushed (or pulled). However, few adjust the correct braking in the toad to be "just right" compared to the rig during the various hard or soft presses of the brake pedal. And having that control in the cockpit, to me, is a feature others are having to catch up with. M&G or someone for M&G systems is placing a light somewhere and others, I understand, are adding wireless controls in the cockpit for their units. It makes sense to me.

Anyway, either way, both M&G and USGear make great systems. And most here that have M&G also have big rigs with air systems to begin with -- and that lessens the differences as Bernie points out. However, on a non air rig, I think USGear is better hands down. With both, after installation, one winds up with just having to plug in the single umbilical between coach and toad -- plus the break a way. Just another second or two time wise as one hooks up the tow bar.

Sounds like between you and your brother, you have most RV systems covered.? ? Have a good day, John.

Bob Buchanan said:

Sounds like between you and your brother, you have most RV systems covered.    Have a good day, John.

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I know I like the US gear brake system I have in my ride.  Though I do need to fix something that a technician messed up, (He moved the break-away switch, I need to move it back)

Brother's Rig is a Kennworth, Detroit Disel powered, puling a nice flat bed hauling, normally flat steel, licensed for 80 ton, yes, 160,000 lbs.  Last I knew (about 4 hours ago) he was in Ohio

Please do your homework.  Be careful, you may not be able to tow a Subaru 4 down as far as a toad is concerned.  I had a 98 Forester, the manual and the service adviser at my dealer said you could not tow it due to the AWD and the type of transmission that it had.  I sold it, got a 98  Honda CRV.  I have towed the CRV about 500 miles, so far, with no problems.  I used Blue Ox Aladdin Tow bar and a Base plate designed for a CRV.  Also, have an aux brake, "Brake Buddy".  I ordered all the items I needed from Express Distributing, after going to the website and checking it out.  www.expressdistributing.com    I ordered my supplies on the phone at:  1-877-439-4287.  They were very helpful when I called.  I'm very happy with my purchase, and it's so easy to hookup and disconnect, my wife can do it.  Don't forget the 2 safety cables, and the electrical cable.  Good Luck!!!