Letter To Bob Olsen Longer Warranty for new coaches

[quote author=banjo5491]... Phil Cosby's...[/quote]

In the spirit of quality improvement, that would be Philip Crosby's .... 

Before I wish the Japanese would come over here to show us how to correctly ...

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I watched the demise of the UK motorcycle industry in the 60's, followed by their consumer electronics and steel industries, all attributed to "Japanese quality". Having spent quite a bit of time in Japan, both as a supplier to Japanese corporations and as a customer of a number of a number of Japanese suppliers, I acquired a somewhat different perspective; Some of those many trips I made across the Pacific were to work with Japanese companies (suppliers) who had caused our customers a lot of grief.

Having spent more than a bit of time in quality control for a major company myself, I'll offer a somewhat different perspective. Most manufacturing quality programs aren't very applicable to RV manufacturing because it is not a repetitive process, i.e. RV's are not perfected and then reproduced by the millions. Or even thousands. RVs are hand built, one at a time, and few, if any, are alike. Production never achieves a steady state where a perfected design becomes stable and then is repeated over and over again and the major issues are making sure that employees are adequately trained and remain attentive to their tasks. Instead, an RV factory is a generalized fabrication facility that pushes through an ever changing variety of custom built products.

Furthermore, many RV quality problems are design issues, either in the RV itself or a component, or use of a component that is not suitable for the environment. One of the biggest issues in product development is design change control, especially for a product that is already in production, and RVs are in a nearly continual state of re-design, trying to keep up with the latest demands from customers for newer/bigger gadgets or the currently most popular brand of appliance.  Stuff gets quickly modified, perhaps shoe-horned in where it was never intended, and nothing gets long term testing except in the customer's hands. And with low production volumes and short lead times, you cannot amortize high development costs over many thousands of units.

But I don't want to get into a long defense of RV quality because they certainly could do better. Or at least a lot more consistent quality.

Gary:
I don't want to get into a kissing contest with you,but I must take you on about the constant change and lack of reliability.  Perfect example is the Day and Night shades.  For years and years they have been in use and for years and years they have failed.  Norcold refers, constant problems, some of them very serious, why hasn't the industry come down on their quality.  On my DP an annoying fueling problem.  Sure, we now have a fix but it will cost you $500.00 in parts. Hey Freightliner, we will not accept inferior handling, fix it or we will go to another provider.  Winnebago it is Freightliners problem go to them, Freightliner it is Winnebago's problem, go to them.  I think you can feel the frustration, especially when you buy your dream machine and it is a nightmare.

Don

We're quickly approaching the beating a dead horse moment in the life of the thread, but I'll make another comment. 

RV manufacturers are taking a whole pile of parts from a bunch of vendors and assemble ling them into a finished good.  The quality of the supplied components and sub-components varies and it has caused issues with Winnebago and Freightliner (since the focus of the thread is Winnebago and now Freightliner.)  Norcold is a good example (or Dometic for fridges) and with Freightliner, the supplier of the fuel tank screwed up big-time by placing the vent line fitting under the filler fitting on the tank.  Freightliner discovered something was wrong on the basis of complaints about slow fuel filling.  As far as the pleated blinds go, there is absolutely no excuse for the long-running and ubiquitous issues with the strings breaking.  Frustration with the blinds most likely was a major factor in MCD shades becoming so popular.

Car manufacturers are not immune from unanticipated problems, nor are other RV manufacturers.  There is a certain former Winnebago owner who now has a new Allegro Bus and he is busy shaking out all of his new coach issues.  My brother-in-law bought a new Dutchstar on a Spartan chassis and I got an earful about his trips to the chassis shop and the latest was one of the roof airs failed.  Etc, etc, etc, etc.

Gary's perspective very closely matches my opinion including the challenge for the industry to do better.

Re: Best Extended Warrenty to work at Winnebago dealers
? Reply #9 on: Today at 02:13:18 PM ?
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I too like the idea of warranty being for when the unit is actually available to be on the road. Many owners winterize the new unit and it sits for several months unused, except to take out for a ride and get the tires moving and the engine running. Actual vacationing or camping is not done at these times. RV manufacture companies make out like bandits with these people as problems will pop up after the 12 months have passed, with the last 6 or so months occurring during the time the motorhome is stored. I also think the clock should restart for those people like myself, who have had the unit in for numerous (over 23 times) repairs the first 12 months, making the unit unavailable for use. And if the warranty is extended, it not be made during the time the unit will be in storage, for example, extend warranty on a unit from Nov. to April, WHEN IT IS IN STORAGE!

I must have hit a nerve with a lot of you with my post. I do not think we are beating a dead horse and this to me is what this form is all about . I think that every body is trying to state how they feel about this but I never thought I would have this much interest. If Winnebago does monitor this form this would be a good one for them to read. Who knows if they did they would really know what us Customers go trough.I like the post about Mr Hanson going around at the GNR and talking to his customers. Well this is the new way for Winnebago to do this. I know change is hard and today it is all about making a profit. But some good old fashioned customer service and CEO that would at least read there mail and not have some one buffer there mail would go along way. I just hope if some of you can pull strings and have a way to talk to the big boys at Forest City would you ask them to read this or forward this post to some one outher than owners relations that could really do something or make changes. That would be great and I hope this Post is not shut down because it is clear I hit a nerve with this post as it keeps growing.

With the purchase of your Sightseer you received a new-vehicle limited warranty against defects in material or workmanship for a period of 12 months or 15,000 miles from the original date of purchase.  Unfortunately, there is no provision for extending in time or mileage the terms of this limited warranty.

As much as we would like to have zero defects in everything we purchase, it ain't gonna happen.  So, warranties are good.  But, in a complex product like a motor home, I think one should probably look at the warranty more like a new home (stick house) warranty rather than like a warranty in a new automobile.  How many of you have purchased new homes that were defect free?  Just sayin'.

I for one don't think we're beating a dead horse or do some people think the "dead horse" is Winnebago.
For some people it's a no-no to talk negative about Winnie. I don't believe there's one manufacturing business that can't apply quality control to it's process and if they don't, let the Japanese show em how.

By the way, you do not need a repetitive process to apply total quality. The only reason it won't work is because people don't want it to work.

Yes Mr. Barnes you did hit a nerve because a lot of us out here are experiencing the same frustrations as you and I am getting fed up. This forum is for information and people who are considering a purchase, can now be forwarned.

                                                              Thank you Mr. Barnes

Maybe it is time for another thread on "Quality" programs.  I am more interested in remaining a Winnie customer because I still believe with a "little tweeking"  they can offer a product competitive with any production model.

After all I have been through I am still  thinking that Winnebago can and will keep making a good coach but it is post like these that could help not hinder them.

I don't want to get into a kissing contest with you,but I must take you on about the constant change and lack of reliability.  Perfect example is the Day and Night shades. 

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Good example. Selection of a poor quality component is a product design issue, not a manufacturing quality issue. So why did they keep on using them?  The industry went from pull down shades to mini-blinds to day/night shades, all because of customer demand for window coverings that allow light during the day and privacy at night.  Trouble is, nobody was building a really good quality day/night shade that would hold up for years and years. Furthermore, day/night shade failures are a nuisance problem for the customer and not a major warranty cost issue for the RV manufacturer. Now everybody wants the MCD product, but nobody yet knows if that will hold up long term either. RV manufacturers are sticking them in nearly every product because customers are demanding them, not because they are a better quality component.

Same with Norcold. 10 or so years ago just about every manufacturer used Dometic fridges, but Dometics were notorious for circuit board failures. Customers discovered the larger Norcold 1200 that didn't need a new controller every few years and the demand blossomed overnight. The word was out: don't buy an RV unless it has a Norcold 4 door fridge.  Now every RV manufacturer puts a Norcold 1200 in the rig and we find they are prone to fires!  And customers have discovered that residential fridges are now practical, so a new rush is on and RV manufacturers are stuffing residential fridges in many models. But those fridges aren't designed for the RV environment and we have no idea whether they will work well and last for many years. I suspect there will be a new set of recriminations in a couple years. People are already finding out that residential fridges often don't work well in very cold weather.

Sigh, after reading all the above posts, it would seem that many people want a product that will seldom if ever fail, and if it does, will be repaired or replaced free of charge for a long time after purchase. My motorhome experience only goes back to 1971, but in that time I have seen great strides in quality of motorhomes. My current motorhome is 8 years old, has 85K miles, and with normal routine preventative maintenance, has served me well. Yes, it did have some problems early in its life, and yes, Winnebago did correct them under warranty.

But, it ain't a car, and I don't expect it to operate like a car. It is a complex machine with many component parts and systems - most purchased off-the-shelf for installation into the motorhome. Think about the cost if every system was designed and built to be installed in a particular motorhome?

My motorhome has its' limitations, but like someone said, the worst day camping in it is better than the best day out on the flightline when I worked for a living! 

Simple question - why don't the RV manufactures offer the same kind of overall warranty that the auto industry offer? That is if something goes wrong with your car, whether it is the radio, a/c or engine, you take it back to Ford for example not the radio manufacturer or whoever manufactured the component. Having a one stop warranty would be a good start. Also our black bag of paper would not contain 10 pound of paper!!

Gary

just like everything you buy today motorhomes are no diverent.the squeaky wheel gets the grease. we have had major problems with our coach long after it was out of warranty and all have been taken care of by Winnebago and freightliner after a little squeak. remember always be nice it goes along way to resolving the problem

Simple question - why don't the RV manufactures offer the same kind of overall warranty that the auto industry offer?

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I think they are just saving the warranty administration expense. Besides, some of the component warranties are longer than the overall RV warranty.

Except for the chassis on a motorhome, the dealer should handle the separate warranties that for you anyway. And larger dealers will handle the chassis warranty too.  In fact, I've had factory service from both Fleetwood and National RV and they both fixed everything without regard to whose warranty covered it. Friends say that Tiffin does that as well - Tiffin gets the problem fixed and then deals with the warranty themselves, without requiring the owner to be involved.

There are situations where the chassis problems become a blame game between Winnebago and the Chassis manufacture.  And I'm sure this is true of other RV makes.  But when this happens at Winnebago at least in our case it seems to get shoved on to the customer to be the go between.  We bought new and when the dealer did the paperwork and sent it to the state for the title we got a letter from the state saying the vin number was invalid and that was after seveal weeks of calls as to why we had not received the title.  Calling the dealer did no good as they said that's the number.  I then called Winnebago, again that's the number nothing we can do.  Called Ford, yes that is a valid vin number the state is in error.  The dealer, Winnebago or Ford was no help to tell me what to do next.  So back to the state, they refused to contact Ford or Winnebago ( the dealer was willing to keep issuing a temporary plate).  My birthday was coming up and time to renew for a plate and I had no title, only a temporary plate.  A friend at the local sheriff department offered to help me.  He somehow got it set up to take the motorhome to the state office so they could verify the Vin number.  The lady there complained because I didn't bring a step ladder so she could see the vin plate on the dash.  Here I was 30 miles from home and she is refusing to verify the vin number.  I told her the number was in at least 3 other locations, no she wanted to see the dash number.  Finally another state worker came out and convinced her to accept the numbers from the other 3 locations.  Finally after nearly 3 months of frustration I got the title.  But how much better I as a customer would have felt if the dealer, Winnebago or Ford would have stepped in and somehow  got this take care of.  To this day I have no idea why the state said the vin was invalid.

Winnebago factory service will handle chassis and house repairs while the house part is under warranty - at least that's the way it worked a couple of years ago.  Like Gary said, some large dealers will also do both chassis and house - Lazydays in Seffner comes to mind.

That's great that factory service will handle warranty on house and chassis.  But I figure by the time I travel close to 2000 miles round trip to the factory & back home it's not to wise a decision dollar wise.  When we had a problem getting a new TV under warranty to fit correctly we were advised if we took it to the factory they would make the change and make it look right.  For the cost of travel I could buy a larger top of the line TV that would fit and install it as we did for much less that a trip to Forest City. 

Note that car manufacturers make nearly all the components for their vehicles, including the chassis. They may subcontract many parts to outside vendors, but they are still custom parts for  the vehicle manufacturer and not generic parts.  Engines and transmissions mostly come from subsidiaries or divisions that build solely or predominantly for the car manufacturer.  And where the car manufacturer buys a standard component, e.g. tires and batteries, they come with a separate warranty.  Conversely, RV manufacturers are largely just assemblers, buying off the shelf components for the most part. They build the body and the cabinetry and have the house wiring harness made to their spec, but not much else is unique.