Campground prices vs occupancy
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Tom
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Bob Buchanan said:
That says it in a nutshell Bob. It seems that campgrounds/RV parks suffer from some of the same lack of management issues as some marinas I've visited. However, in the latter case, the percentage of long-term berthers is very much higher than any of the numbers I've seen quoted for RV parks. But the percentage of folks who accumulate trash is very much lower in marinas.
When I started the current discussion I wasn't thinking about long-term or seasonal renters. I wasn't even aware that the park in question had any seasonal residents beyond workcampers. Furthermore, I doubt that any of the folks dry camped overnight outside the park were there for more than 1-3 nights. Short-stay people are IMO unlikely to be the folks who trash up campgrounds in a bad way, partly because they're not there long enough to accumulate junk. So, back to my original observation that the park appears to be excluding folks who might stay a night or two if their prices were a little lower.
BTW on reflection, I think I might have figured out their "discount policy". Since I was already in their computer, it's highly probable that my AAA or FMCA membership is in my record, so there would be no need to ask for proof. If that assumption is true, then the non-discounted nightly rate was even higher than we thought.
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Wendy,
I'm sometimes considered an "undesirable" in or out of a CG . Some folks see me coming and put up the "no vacancy" sign
I'm sometimes considered an "undesirable" in or out of a CG . Some folks see me coming and put up the "no vacancy" sign
Tom said:Wendy,
I'm sometimes considered an "undesirable" in or out of a CG . Some folks see me coming and put up the "no vacancy" sign?
Me, too. Maybe we should start an "Undesirables" RV park? You have to be neat and tidy but be social unacceptable in some other way before you can stay.
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Good idea Wendy, but how would we keep the "desirables" out? Maybe we keep the rent low, or maybe free. Nah, if we did that, all those nice folks from WM would come.
Bob Buchanan
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wendycoke said:
Thank you, Wendy. I appreciate your message here.
Bob Buchanan
Well-known member
Hi Tom:
It seems that campgrounds/RV parks suffer from some of the same lack of management issues as some marinas I've visited.
====
My only personal experience with marinas was back in the '60's when I had a 15' ski boat on Folsom lake. From the BurRec offices in Sacto to my boat with beer iced down and ready to go was just under 45 minutes. 8) I had a slip at the Brown's Ravine marina. Skiing Folsom on the hot summer nights is a fond memory of mine. Folsom would be like a sheet of glass on a hot night with no wind. I recall the sign over the marina office entrance read something like, "There's nothing quite like just messing around with your boat".
>> So, back to my original observation that the park appears to be excluding folks who might stay a night or two if their prices were a little lower.
====
Unfortunately, owners have problems with some overnighters as well -- going way beyond leaving trash around. Here are some of their favorites that are better done overnight than long term:
o Stealing the utilities post/s -- including meter and so forth.
o Carry special cutters and U lock tools to rid other RVers of their favorite bicycle.
o Steal from neighboring RVs late at night. Have seen complete compartments cleaned out.
o Steal quarters from the washers, dryers, and vending machines.
o Come in late at night after the office closes, dump tanks, fill tanks, get some sleep, and leave before it opens in the AM.
The dichotomy here in that the long termer's have to fill out an application form just as one would when renting a home or apartment -- so some can be caught up front. However, the over nighter or short termer doesn't have to show any "background" info and can easily lie about what they do record. The good news is that a culprit short termer can be removed by the local police pretty fast, whereas the long termer takes longer to get rid of.
Some States by law require that "anyone" staying over night in an RV park fill out the personal info form and that the RV park then keep that info on file. However, a lot of parks don't even do that. No telling who was in that RV that ripped them or a neighbor off the night before. How many times when spending the night has an RVer been asked for their rig and toad license numbers -- and when the response is they don't know without going back to the rig and looking are told, "Oh, that's OK . . .".
>> BTW on reflection, I think I might have figured out their "discount policy". Since I was already in their computer, it's highly probable that my AAA or FMCA membership is in my record, so there would be no need to ask for proof. If that assumption is true, then the non-discounted nightly rate was even higher than we thought.
====
Not sure who's SW they would be using, but mine "would" store that info -- and apply the discount automatically each time you return until the operator changes the setting.
It seems that campgrounds/RV parks suffer from some of the same lack of management issues as some marinas I've visited.
====
My only personal experience with marinas was back in the '60's when I had a 15' ski boat on Folsom lake. From the BurRec offices in Sacto to my boat with beer iced down and ready to go was just under 45 minutes. 8) I had a slip at the Brown's Ravine marina. Skiing Folsom on the hot summer nights is a fond memory of mine. Folsom would be like a sheet of glass on a hot night with no wind. I recall the sign over the marina office entrance read something like, "There's nothing quite like just messing around with your boat".
>> So, back to my original observation that the park appears to be excluding folks who might stay a night or two if their prices were a little lower.
====
Unfortunately, owners have problems with some overnighters as well -- going way beyond leaving trash around. Here are some of their favorites that are better done overnight than long term:
o Stealing the utilities post/s -- including meter and so forth.
o Carry special cutters and U lock tools to rid other RVers of their favorite bicycle.
o Steal from neighboring RVs late at night. Have seen complete compartments cleaned out.
o Steal quarters from the washers, dryers, and vending machines.
o Come in late at night after the office closes, dump tanks, fill tanks, get some sleep, and leave before it opens in the AM.
The dichotomy here in that the long termer's have to fill out an application form just as one would when renting a home or apartment -- so some can be caught up front. However, the over nighter or short termer doesn't have to show any "background" info and can easily lie about what they do record. The good news is that a culprit short termer can be removed by the local police pretty fast, whereas the long termer takes longer to get rid of.
Some States by law require that "anyone" staying over night in an RV park fill out the personal info form and that the RV park then keep that info on file. However, a lot of parks don't even do that. No telling who was in that RV that ripped them or a neighbor off the night before. How many times when spending the night has an RVer been asked for their rig and toad license numbers -- and when the response is they don't know without going back to the rig and looking are told, "Oh, that's OK . . .".
>> BTW on reflection, I think I might have figured out their "discount policy". Since I was already in their computer, it's highly probable that my AAA or FMCA membership is in my record, so there would be no need to ask for proof. If that assumption is true, then the non-discounted nightly rate was even higher than we thought.
====
Not sure who's SW they would be using, but mine "would" store that info -- and apply the discount automatically each time you return until the operator changes the setting.
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Hi Bob,
I'm still missing something in this discussion, so excuse me if I appear a little dense. If CG owners feel they can't trust overnighters and have even bigger problems with seasonals, maybe they're in the wrong business ???
I've seen that on some rare occasions and just can't figure out why people would do it. If we come in late (as we did at one of the parks on our way to Moab), I'll wait until the office opens in the morning and pay my dues. In this case, the park actually had an "after hours self registration", but I didn't see it until I walked into the office in the morning. I apologized for not self-registering. OTOH when I'd called to ask if they had space, I told them I'd be coming in late and would see them in the morning to pay my bill, but they didn't mention the self registration.
You previously told me they were using yours, which confirms my prior thought re the discount being applied.
I'm still missing something in this discussion, so excuse me if I appear a little dense. If CG owners feel they can't trust overnighters and have even bigger problems with seasonals, maybe they're in the wrong business ???
Bob Buchanan said:
I've seen that on some rare occasions and just can't figure out why people would do it. If we come in late (as we did at one of the parks on our way to Moab), I'll wait until the office opens in the morning and pay my dues. In this case, the park actually had an "after hours self registration", but I didn't see it until I walked into the office in the morning. I apologized for not self-registering. OTOH when I'd called to ask if they had space, I told them I'd be coming in late and would see them in the morning to pay my bill, but they didn't mention the self registration.
You previously told me they were using yours, which confirms my prior thought re the discount being applied.
Bob Buchanan
Well-known member
>> I'm still missing something in this discussion, so excuse me if I appear a little dense. If CG owners feel they can't trust overnighters and have even bigger problems with seasonals, maybe they're in the wrong business? ???
====
Perhaps I am not understanding your question. When I wrote, " . . . owners have problems with some overnighters as well . . .", I meant they have to deal with the problems that some will bring to bear -- not that they have a problem with over nighters or seasonals themselves. Is that were the confusion is?
====
Perhaps I am not understanding your question. When I wrote, " . . . owners have problems with some overnighters as well . . .", I meant they have to deal with the problems that some will bring to bear -- not that they have a problem with over nighters or seasonals themselves. Is that were the confusion is?
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Bob Buchanan said:
Understood.
My synopsis of the discussion might help explain my confusion. In the interests of brevity I'm paraphrasing so please don't get hung up on a specific word or term that I use or omit:
- Another discussion mentions park owners needing to make a profit.
- I observe a park with a high overnight rate only 25% full while overnighters dry camp near the front gate. I wondered if, by lowering their price, they might entice some of the overnighters to come in and pay to camp.
- Lowering the price would bring in undesirables. The lower the price, the more undesirables.
- Some overnighters are likely to steal, cause damage, or avoid paying.
- Monthly renters pay the bills, but some contribute to a trashy park.
- Poor management &/or passive owners allowing the trashy condition to occur.
What I'm not understanding is the business model that says keep the overnight price high enough to keep out undesirable people, even if it keeps out desirable folks while the park is 75% empty. But, since this is the business of the park owner and you've stated that you sometimes disagree with their management philosophy, we probably won't arrive at the answer in this discussion.
BTW it was nice not being squeezed between two other RVs. We were the end of a row and our neighbor on the other side was a couple of sites away. We chatted and visited each other's coaches but, when we went back to our respective coach it felt like we had lots of space (which we did). I was shaking my head as we left and drove past the numerous dry campers.
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Bob Buchanan said:
We haven't boated on Folsom since the early 80's. Launching and retrieving a trailered boat there used to be a zoo, as it was on many California lakes. I suspect it's worse nowadays, given the almost relentless increase in boat sales. I did, however, test drive (aka sea trial) my current bass boat on Folsom - it was the nearest lake to the dealership. The young salesman was used to selling $50K-$60K ski boats to kids with lots of money (or good credit ratings) and knew nothing about fishing boats. His boss told him "these guys know exactly what they want, so just take them to the lake and don't bother selling".
Writing this is giving me the urge to go fishing ;D
Bob Buchanan
Well-known member
Good Morning:
>> What I'm not understanding is the business model that says keep the overnight price high enough to keep out undesirable people, even if it keeps out desirable folks while the park is 75% empty. But, since this is the business of the park owner and you've stated that you sometimes disagree with their management philosophy, we probably won't arrive at the answer in this discussion.
====
As mentioned earlier, I don't know what would cause that park to either keep, raise, or lower their pricing. It may have nothing whatsoever to do with undesirables. I also wrote that they may have given it a lot of thought or perhaps haven't considered it at all. From what I know of that park -- would imagine the former. The owner is on site, very bright, has other business ventures, and very much involved in park operations.
The following summary of thoughts would only be why "I" would or would not lower prices. Not knowing their situation in detail, can only surmise:
o? Lowering prices may bring in more undesirables -- discussed in detail here. You say it keeps out desirables as well, but perhaps not. Some may come because of the lower price, but others may decide if the price is that low, something must be wrong. Also, if someone comes away from that park with a bad experience because of the actions of an undesirable, they may not return in the future and may post on a forum such this telling other good RVers to stay away. What's that marketing rule about one happy or unhappy customer tells at least 5 others of their experience?
o? Your random sampling of occupancy is a "1" night observance. A number of parks I am in on a Monday are even less than 25% full -- some more like 100% empty other than monthlies. Parks that I have been able to observe on the freeway that cater to the overnighter do better as the week goes on.
o? Perhaps the parks in that area have worked this out together -- and they have agreed to not start a price war.
o? Most business model guides advise against lowering prices. As an alternative, they suggest increasing value. In this case, what would it take to get those in the parking lot into the park at the current hopefully well thought out pricing.
Edit ( 5/11/06): Boomtown, Reno has a freebee lot just above their park. It is advertised as the overflow lot but many stay there even tho the park is only partially full. Periodically, BT places a free pass for a one night stay in the RV park on the windshield of each RV in the lot. The idea is to not only have those in the lot "observe" with envy those in the park, but to invite them in to experience the amenities they offer.
o Business model guides also suggest that it is easy to lower prices -- but much harder to increase prices. If the park lowers prices to get at those in the parking lot, how will those returning react to the higher pricing they can hopefully charge in the future.
However, as you suggest, we will probably not find the answer in this discussion . . .?
>> What I'm not understanding is the business model that says keep the overnight price high enough to keep out undesirable people, even if it keeps out desirable folks while the park is 75% empty. But, since this is the business of the park owner and you've stated that you sometimes disagree with their management philosophy, we probably won't arrive at the answer in this discussion.
====
As mentioned earlier, I don't know what would cause that park to either keep, raise, or lower their pricing. It may have nothing whatsoever to do with undesirables. I also wrote that they may have given it a lot of thought or perhaps haven't considered it at all. From what I know of that park -- would imagine the former. The owner is on site, very bright, has other business ventures, and very much involved in park operations.
The following summary of thoughts would only be why "I" would or would not lower prices. Not knowing their situation in detail, can only surmise:
o? Lowering prices may bring in more undesirables -- discussed in detail here. You say it keeps out desirables as well, but perhaps not. Some may come because of the lower price, but others may decide if the price is that low, something must be wrong. Also, if someone comes away from that park with a bad experience because of the actions of an undesirable, they may not return in the future and may post on a forum such this telling other good RVers to stay away. What's that marketing rule about one happy or unhappy customer tells at least 5 others of their experience?
o? Your random sampling of occupancy is a "1" night observance. A number of parks I am in on a Monday are even less than 25% full -- some more like 100% empty other than monthlies. Parks that I have been able to observe on the freeway that cater to the overnighter do better as the week goes on.
o? Perhaps the parks in that area have worked this out together -- and they have agreed to not start a price war.
o? Most business model guides advise against lowering prices. As an alternative, they suggest increasing value. In this case, what would it take to get those in the parking lot into the park at the current hopefully well thought out pricing.
Edit ( 5/11/06): Boomtown, Reno has a freebee lot just above their park. It is advertised as the overflow lot but many stay there even tho the park is only partially full. Periodically, BT places a free pass for a one night stay in the RV park on the windshield of each RV in the lot. The idea is to not only have those in the lot "observe" with envy those in the park, but to invite them in to experience the amenities they offer.
o Business model guides also suggest that it is easy to lower prices -- but much harder to increase prices. If the park lowers prices to get at those in the parking lot, how will those returning react to the higher pricing they can hopefully charge in the future.
However, as you suggest, we will probably not find the answer in this discussion . . .?
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OK thanks for the additional comments Bob. We'll just let it die in peace and I'll continue to scratch my head.
Bob Buchanan
Well-known member
Betty Brewer said:
Betty, thank you for your comments here. I appreciate that.
Have been keeping up with the pictures of your new home (without wheels
) as construction progresses -- and can imagine how exciting it must be for you and Terry.
Dave R
Well-known member
We are those overnighters or just 3 or 4 nights and it seems to me that the price per night has nothing to do with keeping out those who may or may
not trash up the place or attempt to steal something. Rather it seems to be what the traffic will bear. I have seen a lot more people in huge motorhomes who come in late
and leave before daylight and I didn't see them pay. Perhaps they did and this in no way condemns anyone who travels in a motorhome, but rather just what we
have observed in the last six years.
Also I don't think many of the parking lot folks would go to the rv park regardless of what the price was if it wasn't free. Many of the parking lot folks I have talked to
seem to have a "score card" they are keeping of how many nights they stay in parking lots or other free places. We have never stayed in a parking lot, but who
knows, we may be in one tomorrow, so never say never.
Dave
not trash up the place or attempt to steal something. Rather it seems to be what the traffic will bear. I have seen a lot more people in huge motorhomes who come in late
and leave before daylight and I didn't see them pay. Perhaps they did and this in no way condemns anyone who travels in a motorhome, but rather just what we
have observed in the last six years.
Also I don't think many of the parking lot folks would go to the rv park regardless of what the price was if it wasn't free. Many of the parking lot folks I have talked to
seem to have a "score card" they are keeping of how many nights they stay in parking lots or other free places. We have never stayed in a parking lot, but who
knows, we may be in one tomorrow, so never say never.
Dave
Gary RV_Wizard
Site Team
I'm inclined to agree with Dave - there seem to be a bunch of folks who will only consider free places. And when they do break down and rent a site in a campground, they seem to grumble about everything - facilities, site size & condition, dumpster location, campground rules, prices , everything. And then they are likely to abuse the place as well, as though theyare trying to strike back at being "forced' to pay for a campsite. I'm just as happy when they do stay elsewhere...
We have been in the same park for the past month and will be here another week, our last. When we return this fall we will drive an extra ten miles to avoid this place!
It is a beautiful park where the management allows anything to go on until the police get involved. We just spent Memorial Day with a bunch of tenters next to us who partied until 2:00AM one night and midnight last night, including amplifiers and Elvis impersonators.
When I finally gave up and called the office last night to ask that something be done it was closed until this morning at 10:00AM-with 250 campers here for the holiday weekend. The response I got from talking to some of the seasonals who were also upset was that the prices are so low they do not want to rock the boat and have the campground sold.
The worse noise seemed to come from tenters who were paying 18.00/night.
Its all theirs!
It is a beautiful park where the management allows anything to go on until the police get involved. We just spent Memorial Day with a bunch of tenters next to us who partied until 2:00AM one night and midnight last night, including amplifiers and Elvis impersonators.
When I finally gave up and called the office last night to ask that something be done it was closed until this morning at 10:00AM-with 250 campers here for the holiday weekend. The response I got from talking to some of the seasonals who were also upset was that the prices are so low they do not want to rock the boat and have the campground sold.
The worse noise seemed to come from tenters who were paying 18.00/night.
Its all theirs!
