Bought 2 new chassis batteries

I thought I marked everything so I could hook them back up easily.  Apprently wrong!

I hook up the positive to positive on one battery, take cable over to next battery and hook positive to positive but if I try to hook up negative next it sparks.  I labeled each cord and I'm sure I have that part right.

I found one little connector with no label, don't know where it came from??

And there is no negative battery cord for back left negative, I've looked all over. maybe it fell off, need to reach behind the lower bank of batteries.  Thought one was there to connect that negative to the other battery negatvie am I all wrong here?  Jeez, I'm getting very frustrated.

Pictures would help.

If there is one cable that goes between the two batteries and doesn't connect to anything else you're probably set up for two 6 volt batteries instead of two 12 volt batteries.

You do need to find that missing cable.  It probably did just fall out of sight.

The "spark" may be a different matter, but if it's just a small spark (and not a weld cables together kind of spark) it is probably normal.  You've, no doubt. heard us discussing small phantom loads that are always present in these systems.  Hopefully, that's all that is.

Jammer said:

Pictures would help.

If there is one cable that goes between the two batteries and doesn't connect to anything else you're probably set up for two 6 volt batteries instead of two 12 volt batteries.

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Jammer, these are her chassis (starting) batteries......

Carolyn,, Are you using two 6 volt or two 12 volt batteries??  If they are two 12 volt, then all positives go together and all negatives go together, then you should have a positive from the engine (starter)  and a negative from the frame (hook this one LAST.)  (This should be the system if it is the chassis set.) >>>Dan

I'm using 12 volt, I went out to take pictures and saw right away where I had hooked them up wrong.  I somehow mislabled and had a negative to a positive.  Then my tenant came over and we moved the other 2 small wires, one is a ground and the other I didn't label is some kind of ground and wasn't even hooked up.

so the batteries are good.  I will take a picture BEFORE I ever unhook them again and I made a new label for the one.  I turned the switch on outside and pushed the button for chassis inside and the engine buzzer and everything is on.

So that is one step done.  I have to undo them and rehook as I left the frame off the top that holds them in, duh.

When I last replaced batteries, I went down to Napa Auto Parts and bought battery cable size heat shrink in red and black. Put 1 1/2" pieces of red on the positive wires and black ones on the negative. Hopefully it will save me and maybe the next owner down the road.

We are chasing things down, lot of electric issues I know.  I have my tenant that will help, he has been busy but came over this evening to work again.  All my shore power will work as is and all my 12 volt will work but we need the battery charger to work.

I don't know what the DLS 45 charges, only coach or both coach and chassis batteries.
I'm thinking when driving the alternator should charge them both?
And if the generator is running it charges both?

Here is some history.  When this coach was produced, they used a charger converter that did not work for long and Todd went bankrupt trying to cover the warranty work on them.
So I've read it became Lyght Power Systems and their unit was replaced with an Iota DLSS45 unit instead of the one made by Todd.  My guy says they have jerryrigged this under the bed to make it work. I'm not sure why they would have done this.  We found a converter battery charger per the original information in a bay by the invertor, I would have thought they would have pulled it out and put it there?? I cannot tell if this was made by Todd Engineering until its pulled out, if it is that is what they are trying to replace but not sure why they would moved the location.

So the one under the bed had 3 big inflexible neutral wires wired directly into the 12 volt panel and grounded at the 120 panel with  the 3 big inflexible wires.  Then they cut off the plug and wired it into the Model ATS 30A module under the bed.  I am going to replace that model with the newer version ATS 301 and its half the size with an encased relay instead of being exposed.  We don't think the inverter or converter either one work, I can not find power to it.  He and I are using a toner to trace stuff down. 

I talked to hubby and he said just go ahead and replace this stuff rather then trying to fix it.  So far I've spent $70 on the module, $150 on the ATS.  If I can get a new ATS main power panel, if its the one I'm calling about its $209, then that leaves the converter and inverter.  And like my tenant says you may replace something and it can make the rest work.  We will get there and I'm learning a ton.

I am finding that this is extremely interesting and my tenant is too.  He said its just a matter of going from one item to the next.

Oh I charged up the new batteries and my indicator panel shows they have a full charge!

I have a switch on order from Fleetwood. You push one button and it turns the chassis on and push another button and it turns the coach on.  The batteries feed this and run both, but the coach switch will turn on one time and not the next, it is pretty much gone.  Fleetwood said they do have that and I ordered a replacement, could be up to 10 days to receive.  I hope I get it before then.

I need to get back to putting the last skylight in and putting dicor around all that, then putting my MaxxAir domes back on, will be done with the roof.

But I think tomorrow I'm going to get the tractor out and pull the fencing out of my garden and till it.  I HAVE to get my garden in or it will be to hot to produce, so I may have to stop on this for awhile again.

My insurance agent lives in that subdivision too and he said he will keep a lookout for someone tearing up my yard too.  My daughter thinks the truck was red and what did I see go by this evening.  A red truck, jacked up with a black fender, and huge tires and turned back in there. It woke her up the other night and she said they were in and out quick, but I don't think she realized it was in the yard.  She said it had yellow lights at the bottom front 2 of them.  So I might be able to match those items up and at least find who did it.  I'm not very happy about that.  I'm sure I will get nothing out of it but we may be able to track them down.  Another friend on the net matched the tire tread to a particular tire that he said is very uncommon They are near $400 each.  I have the modesty panel off the front so we might be able to find it yet.  I'm passing the tire info on to two folks living over there. 

I guess I can call Fleetwood and find out.  Mr. E, my tenant checked with the new battery charger hooked up if either the chassis or coach batteries had increased charge when it was hooked up, nothing, so we know that is not working the way they have it.

But I can't find anything that says whether all the batteries will be kept charged up with this or not.  Perhaps this is someting I should just know but I don't.

Anyone else have a clue on an old Eagle?

Water Dog said:

When I last replaced batteries, I went down to Napa Auto Parts and bought battery cable size heat shrink in red and black. Put 1 1/2" pieces of red on the positive wires and black ones on the negative. Hopefully it will save me and maybe the next owner down the road.

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We think alike.  I did the same thing.  I make my own cables (for RV and autos) and use 1" pieces of colored shrink tubing to identify polarity.  I use 2" pieces if using to waterproof lug/cable connection.  Works great!

Just Lou said:

Jammer, these are her chassis (starting) batteries......

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Still, you never know.  6v starting batteries in series were pretty common in diesel tractors for a while.  I've thought about putting a pair of 6v batteries in my pickup but haven't done it.

6 volt batteries in series work OK, but will not usually spin the engine as fast as two 12ves in parallel.>>>Dan

Made a lot of progress today, will continue on later.  I have other things to do today and tomorrow.

I need to draw up all we have done and connected.

I am SO EXCITED. The old wiring that has been added under the bed we are going to remove, it was an add.

We removed the old convertor charger in the bay and put in the new DLS 45 with Iota 4 Smart Controller. There is a block it hooks into the top said Auxillary battery, middle alternator, bottom batteries, not exact need to look again but its behind the converter/charger.

When we hooked the top and bottom red wire in the Smart Controller was just on or floating as they are fully charged, so we were hooked to both but it was "floating". We knew the coach batteries were way down, so he unhooked the top red wire and left the bottom one in only and the bottom or coach batteries are charging. You can tell how many cells by the flashes on the smart minder, so it was flashing 12, which means its charging all 4 batteries. I used the meter to check bottom or coach batteries and they were a 12.93. The indicator panel inside indicates almost full so that was successful.

Mr E said we could get another convertor/charger and hook to the top to charge the chassis batteries only, but I'm thinking the motor charges them, have to check the manual, I think it says. Also I have the switch up front that will connect both sets of batteries to boost starting power when needed.

We are not concerned with the inverter at this point, we don't think it works anyway, doesn't appear to by testing. And I'm not interested in running 120 off 12 at this time.

So next is hooking up the inside ATS, and trying to find out about a new or rebuilt outside ATS main panel. Then hopefully see if everything will run and switch back and forth as needed. What an adventure. I'm giving him a months rent off and that is small payment for this.

Hubby is on his own on the engine, I'm not sure I want to know about diesels right now. A lot for an old lady to absorb!!

A good day, off to check on little house being built. I completed our taxes last night and submitted to the company accts. (I was an accountant before I retired) And today is beautiful!!

Thanks Dave for your help too, He is on another forum. Tomorrow either work on motorhome again or clear the fencing out of my garden so I can till and start planting.

Later!!

Mr. E came over while I was gone and checked the coach batteries, he said they checked out at 13.07 so likely close to fully charged.  Did that in a little over 3 hours, 4 of them.

That makes me very happy.  We may get and hookup the same kind of charger and minder for the chassis batteries.  I can just unplug it when driving if need be.

Glad to hear you're making progress, Carolyn. Sounds as if you're learning a lot, too -- careful, you are on your way to being an RV mechanic.  : ;D

Thanks for sharing this -- your writing is very enjoyable.

Carolyn,
You don't need a second charger. You use a "battery Minder", a small device (basically an isolation diode with indicator lights) that maintains a trickle charge to the chassis batteries while the coach batteries are being charged. These are quite economical and are "install and forget" (mine is on the front fire wall so i see it once in a while and the green light is reassuring).
Keep up the fun stuff (I think you get to keep this one longer since there is more to do),
Ernie

Mr E was convinced we needed two, but I do not think we do and I think he is coming around.

I am getting a better understanding of this, just have to think on it some.  Ok, I found what the module is that the converter/charger attaches to.  It is the battery isolation module, it has a wire to the chassis batteries and one to the coach batteries, one is identified as main and the other auxillary.  Then in the middle is the alternator wire.

He was thinking that the smart module would not be able to bridge all this and monitor all the batteries, but from what I've read it can.

It sounds as though it does a quick fast charge and then maintains.  I do see what he is saying as its maintaining about 12.72 and he had checked when it was hooked up to the coach ones and was 13 something but I think that was doing the fast charge up, they were down to practically nothing. He thinks they are not maintaining at a high enough level, and I think they are though its probably about 90%, but I've read that that reading is considered a full charge.  I had him go ahead and hook up both sets and now both sets are reading the same amount or for example 12.72 to 12.74, very little variation between the sets.

Today I took the coach for about a 12 mile drive, the alternator was showing about 13.5 when driving, as a reading so its charging.  When I got home I measured the batteries again and I had 12.99 and 12.89 so they charged on that short drive.  I was also down to 1/8 tank of diesel so put in $100 worth, that's a laugh at $3.89 a gallon, from what I'm reading though that's a decent price.  It's not quite half a tank but ok.

Here is what we consider an issue, but perhaps its a none issue.  I  think I have finally figured out what was done by a previous owner or owners, not sure why but might have been expense or just aggravation from run down batteries.

I think the inverter and the converter/charger quit working or perhaps the inverter kept pulling to much juice and ran the batteries down.  So they disconnected the inverter all through the system.  I will check tomorrow but I beleive the inverter line out of the main box has even been disconnected and that's why we had a couple of loose wires out there.We kept seeing loose wires and wondering why.  So instead of replacing the inverter, they bought an ATS #2 or we call it baby ATS and put that module under the bed.  Then they bought a new converter/charger and wired it into the ATS #2 under the bed.  This was then wired into panel number 1 under the bed.  Also they wired one of the AC units into this unit so we have 1 unit on panel 1 and 1 unit on panel 2.  From what I've read in my manual the old inverter seemed to have a built in ATS but a stand alone converter/charger. It also told which items it would run.  The inverter had a nice panel inside said when it was on, said when the batteries were low or if it was to hot or if the batteries were to hot and it would shut down.  That was pretty much it.  And since it was an integral part then if demand was read and nothing else was available on it went.  I can see if something went awry you could easily have dead batteries, especially if the charger quit working so it looked like they bypassed all this.Oh and we determined the leftover positive battery cable goes to the inverter, so that mystery solved.

Then also I think part of this was done so when you plugged the 50 amp into a 30 amp you would have one air conditioner running off the one 110 panel number 1 and have all the items hooked into it useable and they limited it that way.  But when doing this you can see wires were added to the panel and some disabled in the ATS 2, so it kept getting more interesting. When we put the converter charger back in the bay and removed the original, we also removed the added wires for it from under the bed.  It's all working fine out there.  It's up on a shelf so dry and is bolted down so won't fall out.  And to me its situated closer to the batteries so it won't lose current when charging.

What I'm wanting to do is simply run whatever we need to use when plugged into 30 amp directly into panel number 1 and do away with the ATS 2.  Everything I read says that the switching takes place in the main power panel where the shore power cord comes in and the second ATS is only used with an inverter.  It's also possible wires were run into the ATS as the breaker slots are full. Get rid of the inverter, as its not hooked up anyway and add a new power panel in the outside bay.  The new ones are smaller and I imagine more efficient.  It would have the main power cord coming in, and outgoing would be panel 1, panel 2, generator, and electric, just delete the inverter.

Does anyone know if the second ATS has to be there, we can't see a reason for it other then to use with an inverter, and does this seem like a logical setup.  Everything is working basically but I think it needs cleaned up.  Even though they are dead I don't like seeing the loose and disconnected wires around and it will make it confusing for future maintenance.

Any ideas?

I can buy a Xantrex inverter with an ATS and a converter/charger built in.  it's a pure sine wave inverter and the thing is $1900!!  I told hubby the problem I see if one component fails you have lost a very expensive unit.  We are pretty much thinking of just leaving the inverter out as it is now.  Anyone see a problem with this?

Carolyn, many of us engineering and technical DIYers would love to be there observing and assisting in the diagnosis and resolution of your coach electrical issues, but are reluctant to make assumptions or recommendations without that hands-on aspect.  The consequences could simply be too great.

I've read your last post three times, and you may well be correct in assuming that the standalone ATS that you found may, in fact, be a previous owners attempt to bypass a failing ATS (and associated Inverter), but that shouldn't necessarily have resulted in loose hanging and extra wires.  Even if you do not intend to replace the inverter, connecting the existing wires in a simple J Box, should restore circuit connectivity, but not result in extra/loose wiring. 

I would be reluctant to connect, and apply power to, any wiring that I didn't absolutely understand and meter out to positively identify.

Please be careful.  AC electricity can be very dangerous.

Whatever they are, all of them are in the ATS box, the baby one, and on one of the connectors I guess its a relay instead of connecter is the right term, on the main switch panel.  We really think they are all related to the inverter. Mr E has tested each one multiple times and there is no power to them, we aren't connecting them to anything, he put wire nuts on the ones like that.  I guess it sounded like a lot of them but there arent' many, its just there shouldn't be any. Beleive me he knows what he is doing with electricity, he has worked with it a long time.  On this I'm mainly an observer and a helper to help him tone things.

We are going to track and verify our wiring, everything is working so they have nothing to do with any of that. Tuesday we are going to start checking the working wires to label and verify they are going where the manual says they are to make sure.

We know what all the connecting wires do, that's why we are wondering if we can just remove the baby ATS box and live without it. Won't the main panel do all the switching functions without it?

All we found connected in it was the dead converter/charger and an air conditioning hookup in it.  Hubby said if everything works why not leave it all alone, cause I don't like it.

What we found wrong was the converter/charger dead so no batteries were being charged, that was the biggest problem.  Then of course we found the main power cable loose, and I found a burned connector on a GFCI in the bathroom and a loose connecter on a switch.  Cleaned up connectors on the 12 volt stuff in the bedroom so that works. It was mainly loose stuff that we fixed, so nothing earth shattering or rocket science.  We just don't understand why they used the one baby ATS.  We could just replace it and go on.  Maybe we have it in good enough shape to just take it to a mechanic and have him check it.  They most likely are very familiar with all this stuff. Hubby can, but time constraints for him is the issue.

It's tough to say what the "baby ATS" is for without seeing it and (at least mentally) building a circuit diagram for the installed components. Like Lou, I'm reluctant to offer advice based on a rough description of a system by an amateur.

Some sort of transfer is needed for any inverter, to make sure that the inverter is never able to power the coach 120v wiring at the same time shore power or generator is active. The TS can be manual, but most elect to use an ATS and that might be what yours is for. A converter/charger alone normally does not need a TS at all, but it may be there to prevent the charger from running when an inverter is powering the coach. That would be pointless, since the inverter would pulling power from the batteries to feed the charger that tries to put it back in.  An integrated inverter/charger handles that internally, but if you have independent charger and inverters, then an ATS makes sense.