If an F450 more "legally" complex than a F350?

I have a few years of towing a pretty light Keystone Cougar (+/-11,000lbs) with a 2004 GMC Sierra 2500HD...Diesel.  We love it enough that we know we want a much bigger her in the future to spend a few years living in.  So, our plan was to buy a used F350 or 3500 Dually get it paid off and then upgrade the 5er.

I came across a nice deal on a 2005 F450 Diesel that seems to really fit the bill of a big truck.  I put a deposit down and now while getting loans and insurance I keep hearing that it is "commercial".  I am wondering what kind of trouble I am getting myself into by going bigger than a F350\3500.  I am going to be subject to different laws when I am towing a 5th?  Additional tolls?  I just need some advice if I should turn my back on this because there is going to be too much trouble regarding the "commercial" status.  We live in Summit County, CO. 

I don't mind missing out on the $500 deposit if I am onto a bad path.  However, I really want this nice big ass truck! 

Simon

You should put a call in to the DMV as well as your insurance carrier.  They should be able to straighten out the commercial/private stuff.  I've seen a lot of private 450's running around so it can't be that bad.

Never heard of the F450 considered "commercial" unless it was used as such and registered that way.  We have a friend with F450 pulling his 5Ver, not commercial.  Sounds like a good deal you have working, hope this works out for you, that's a nice truck!

And I've seen compact cars registered as commercial.

jje1960 said:

Never heard of the F450 considered "commercial" unless it was used as such and registered that way.  We have a friend with F450 pulling his 5Ver, not commercial.  Sounds like a good deal you have working, hope this works out for you, that's a nice truck!

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Thanks.  I had to get a commercial loan....and commercial insurance - which we are still working on.  However DMV says they don't care just pay up.  It is starting to look like it isn't a big deal.  I think if you live in CA with such a beast and tow as much as a lawn mower you have to get a special endorsement but I think, from what I read that if you are driving through with a CO license you are just fine.  I normally just keep driving and plead ignorant but I was worried about having commercial plates which doesn't sound like it will be an issue now.


Simon

In NY a F350 is considered commercial.  We just bought a F350 dually and it's registered commerical...some limitations on driving on parkways and such, but nothing else seems to have been affected to bad...well, yeah, tolls are a little more and the ferries now charge us more as well (currently we live on an island accesible only by ferry). 

An F450 is no more - or less "commercial" than an F350. It's in the same federal weight class, as far as required equipment and such is concerned. Other than that, any vehicle is "commercial" or not based on its usage, not its size. It's a private vehicle as long as it is not registered for and used for business purposes.

Gary RV Roamer said:

An F450 is no more - or less "commercial" than an F350. It's in the same federal weight class, as far as required equipment and such is concerned. Other than that, any vehicle is "commercial" or not based on its usage, not its size. It's a private vehicle as long as it is not registered for and used for business purposes.

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I wish that were true but I am having to deal with both a commercial insurance policy and a commercial loan.  I have shopped around.  A F350 however did not have that complication.  Maybe it is just a CO issue but I am buying the truck in TX and they could only find a commercial loan, and that is from a huge dealer on ebay.  So far no insurance policy but I have a lot of calls placed.

The GVWR on the F450 in question is 16,000.  On a F350 I looked at it was 13,000.  What the insurance folks are telling me is once you go over 15,000 it becomes "commercial".

So a Prevost conversion would be commercial too. 

The another thing to be noted is that if you tow any other trailers besides your personal 5er or TT with your truck, your total combined GVWR can not be at or over 26000lbs.  If it is 26,000lbs or more then you have to get a CDL.  But if all you are towing is your personal RV, then you are exempt from the 26,000 CGVWR.

Example:  My dad has a couple F350's both are dually, diesel, ext cab long box, 4X4.  Legally I can not take the 05 F350 towing the gooseneck, 05 F350 GVW 13000lbs+gooseneck GVW 14000lbs = 27000lbs CGVWR.  But the 02 F350 GVW is 11800+gooseneck 14000= 25800 CGVWR.

Both my 1/2 & 3/4  trucks are license as commercial, not my choice, just the Nebraska law.

I haven't run into that problem with pick-up trucks in other states, but I guess the attitude that a truck must be "commercial" is more prevalent than I thought. And if the registration says "commercial", then there is probably no escaping the insurance and financing aspect either.

Just another case of gov't bureacracy running counter to any common sense.

PHS79 said:

The another thing to be noted is that if you tow any other trailers besides your personal 5er or TT with your truck, your total combined GVWR can not be at or over 26000lbs.  If it is 26,000lbs or more then you have to get a CDL.  But if all you are towing is your personal RV, then you are exempt from the 26,000 CGVWR.

Example:  My dad has a couple F350's both are dually, diesel, ext cab long box, 4X4.  Legally I can not take the 05 F350 towing the gooseneck, 05 F350 GVW 13000lbs+gooseneck GVW 14000lbs = 27000lbs CGVWR.  But the 02 F350 GVW is 11800+gooseneck 14000= 25800 CGVWR.

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Actually the 26k applies towards straight trucks. If your towing a trailer with a gvw over 10k that's not for personal use you have to have a CDL.

There are 2 distinct issues here:
1. The registration: I can only speak for NY but if a pickup is under a certain weight (don't know what it is), it can be registered with either a Passenger plate or a Commercial plate. Once it hits the weight threshold, Commercial registration is required. The registration does not directly impact how the vehicle is insured, though (my trucks have always been registered "commercial" but insured on my personal auto policy).
2. Insurance: Any vehicle registered to an individual is considered a "personal auto". However, there are some personal insurance companies that will say no to any dually (1-ton included) assuming it's used for some type of business. Other companies will take the time to see how it's truly used and will insure them. On the other side of the scale, most commercial insurance companies will not insure a "commercial" vehicle if it's NOT used for business.

Joezeppy said:

2. Insurance: Any vehicle registered to an individual is considered a "personal auto". However, there are some personal insurance companies that will say no to any dually (1-ton included) assuming it's used for some type of business. Other companies will take the time to see how it's truly used and will insure them. On the other side of the scale, most commercial insurance companies will not insure a "commercial" vehicle if it's NOT used for business.

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This is exactly the catch 22 I am facing. 

PHS79 said:

The another thing to be noted is that if you tow any other trailers besides your personal 5er or TT with your truck, your total combined GVWR can not be at or over 26000lbs.  If it is 26,000lbs or more then you have to get a CDL.  But if all you are towing is your personal RV, then you are exempt from the 26,000 CGVWR.

Example:  My dad has a couple F350's both are dually, diesel, ext cab long box, 4X4.  Legally I can not take the 05 F350 towing the gooseneck, 05 F350 GVW 13000lbs+gooseneck GVW 14000lbs = 27000lbs CGVWR.  But the 02 F350 GVW is 11800+gooseneck 14000= 25800 CGVWR.

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This is one of the items that freaked me out the most at first and made me think I was going to have to cancel the deal.  Then I did some research and found, as you say, that RV\5ers are except from this in most states...but not all.  I guess that could change in the future but I will take my chances....if I can get insurance!

Joezeppy said:

There are 2 distinct issues here:
1. The registration: I can only speak for NY but if a pickup is under a certain weight (don't know what it is), it can be registered with either a Passenger plate or a Commercial plate. Once it hits the weight threshold, Commercial registration is required. The registration does not directly impact how the vehicle is insured, though (my trucks have always been registered "commercial" but insured on my personal auto policy).
2. Insurance: Any vehicle registered to an individual is considered a "personal auto". However, there are some personal insurance companies that will say no to any dually (1-ton included) assuming it's used for some type of business. Other companies will take the time to see how it's truly used and will insure them. On the other side of the scale, most commercial insurance companies will not insure a "commercial" vehicle if it's NOT used for business.

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Agreed.  In CO if it is under 16,000 then you can go Commercial or Private.  How you register it doesn't seem to concern the insurance folks.  We are kind of struggling to explain to them that we use it for fun to tow a 5th wheel...they think we are lying to them to get a private policy!  Nuts...

I guess Colorado and New York have some strange laws. In Wyoming it would be considered a "Farm/Ranch" truck even if it was a F-150 and the licensing fee would be based upon the empty weight not gross.

We tow with a Freightliner FL50 which weighs 12k with a GVW of 18k, it's registered in Montana under my business there and is considered "Commercial" only because it's owned by a business, it has no DOT numbers though and is not required to stop at Port of Entries or scales. As far as insurance is concerned there are plenty out there that will insure you don't sweat that part of it. We use Geico by the way and are extremely happy with them, even after having had to use them.

Now on to your choice of an F-450.  The 450 is the smallest Medium Duty Truck (MDT) out there and is considered a Class 4. As such it will make an outstanding tow vehicle and will out-perform ANY light pick-up while dragging around a 5th Wheel. Having said that, I don't assume to mean that it will out-perform anything in the mileage department. The newer F-450's with the smaller engines are fuel pigs. I have a friend who has owned two and he throws a party when he hits 6mpg while towing his Teton. If you can find one that has the 7.3 liter engine in it you'd be much better off but they haven't been made in many years so any that you find will likely have a bunch of miles on it.

The other issue that you need to look at is what is this thing going to ride like when not towing. I can tell you from experience that an F-450 will beat you to death when you aren't under tow. It is what is considered a "Bolt-Down" cab meaning no air-ride cab or suspension not to mention no air-ride seats. You CAN modify the suspension to air but not the cab or seats.

I would highly recommend that if you are looking for an MDT investigate a used Freightliner or International. They don't need to be spec'd especially for RV's like a Sport Chasis. The up-side to buying a REAL MDT is that you will get full air-ride out of the box and they are intentionally built for what you want it for, towing. You will find that they tow even better than the Fords and will get sometimes twice the fuel mileage.

The final straw for me is the price. We bought our FL50 for $20k

ROOFTOP SPECIAL said:

Actually the 26k applies towards straight trucks. If your towing a trailer with a gvw over 10k that's not for personal use you have to have a CDL.

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The trailer over 10K doesn't matter, only GVW and CGVW, according to my bro-in-law (a WI state trooper) and also the WI DOT.  I have been across WI DOT scales with the 02 F350 and gooseneck and had to get inspected, I have no CDL and I was in the clear, all but a warning for a side marker light on the trailer having a broken lens.

Hello.  I'm new to the forum and this is my first actual post other than my initial post as a new member.  Going from a F350 to an F450 is quite a bit different chassis design.  A lot of the F250 and F350 parts are interchangeable, but the suspension, linkage and other components are not.  Most of the repairs and replacement parts will be more expensive on the F450.  I have a firend that works for a very large commercial landscape company as the fleet manager.  The last time we met he actually mentioned the difference from the F350 to the F450's and F550's.  A lot of the smaller Ford dealers probably will not stock the parts unless they typically deal with commercial and fleet customers.

Good luck