Minimum 4-wheeling equipment

Tom,

Both our stock Geo Trackers and Suzuki Grand Vitaras got us to many places that a car might not go.

As you know, we were not into "extreme" off roading but we did do some trails in Moab that Jeeps seemed to hesitate a little. I think driver awareness has a lot to do with the success of making, or not making, a trail. I'm far from an expert but had a lot of fun in the past. Those times are probably over except for riding with someone.

One year Terry B. and I did a trip up the Calcite Mine trail in Anza Borrego. We both had Grand Vitaras at the time. It was a little rough but we made it successfully. When Terry checked in with a Ranger about another trail he was told the Calcite Mine trail was not driveable!! 

Unless you want to do the really hard stuff, there are many vehicles available the do not require mortgaging the farm to obtain. I sure would love a fully equipped Rubicon but it's just not practical for us at this time in our life.

Thanks for all the replies. Understand the desire  &/or need to lower tire pressures, but doesn't that cause premature failure?

Jim, your GV was a great vehicle.

I don't want to, and do not do really hard stuff, or extreme off roading. But one of the problems in today's world, is you can't do what you use to do. (usta). Areas are being closed across the country for revegatation and making them wilderness areas.

In some places, where you drove a nice scenic road to go for a hike, now requires a high clearance4 wheel drive suv.

So I would have to say the Minimum 4-wheeling equipment would be a high clearence suv, and a good understanding of how the trail rating system works.

Tom said:

Thanks for all the replies. Understand the desire  &/or need to lower tire pressures, but doesn't that cause premature failure?

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Interesting question... my initial thought, upon reading your question, is that the "off-road" tires are designed for "tough" duty and running at lower pressure is kinda "in the noise" compared to the terrain and road surfaces encountered.  Driving on under-inflated tires on the hiway is known to cause overheating and damage... off-road the speed is usually less than 15-20 mph, often 5 mph, so heating is not an issue; the sidewall flex might be an issue over time but driving over big, sometimes sharp, rocks the lower pressure spreads the load across more tread so maybe less damage is possible.  Obviously I don't really know for sure one way or the other.  The other aspect to your Q is the "premature" part.  I doubt anyone really expects to get a full life... 30,000 miles?... from these tires.  I'd guess that traction starts to decline after the tread reaches even half of the original tread depth and the chances of a puncture go up so folks probably replace the tires for those reasons instead of mileage.  The MT type tires don't even offer a mileage "warranty".  The "AT" tires offer a warranty but I would never try to reach it.

Actually, in my case, I have two sets of tires... one for driving off-road and one for paved roads.  It takes about 10-15 minutes to change from one to the other.  If we are going on an "off-road" event, put those tires on; after we get home again, put the "street" tires on...  BTW, I "air-up" to 40psi for towing. 

Tom said:

Thanks for all the replies. Understand the desire  &/or need to lower tire pressures, but doesn't that cause premature failure?

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I think a non-issue with tires designed for the 4x4 off-road crowd.  The sidewalls on our Goodyear MT/Rs have a Kevlar layer and tire engineers know that the off-road bunch always airs down. We like to run anywhere from 9 to 12 psi in our 35" tires - makes for a great ride and the tread wraps around rocks and is less likely to get punctured.

Tire failure for us means we have chewed up the sidewalls and torn off the outer tread lugs  .

Barb said:

In some places, where you drove a nice scenic road to go for a hike, now requires a high clearance4 wheel drive suv.

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And trails change with every rainstorm, season, and traffic - what might have been an easy trail for any 4x4 last month might be much harder today.

We started out running trails in our Jeep Liberty and liked it so much we went all out with Rubi. I suppose it's a guy thing, but I love the challenge of overcoming a difficult obstacle.

I had a 90 YJ that I wheeled on up to 9 level trails.  Locked front and rear with 4.10 gears and a teralow 4:1 case.  Roll cage, full skid plates (engine, transfer case and gas tank) on board air, on board welder, tools and spares, and an HS9500i winch, hand throttle and more.  It ran on 35s sprung over with 2.5" packs.  I had 24" of clearance under the belly pan.  All that said, the best advice so far is to build for where you want to go.  The bigger you get, the more sacrifices you make.  It got to the point that I was breaking something every time out and was very expensive. 

My advice is to get aggressive tires, lockers front and rear, a proper lift, and proper gearing (LOW).  A winch and a way to air up are also a good add ons.  Long wheelbase versus short wheelbase are better depending on where you are in the trail.  Don't run alone, or you may find yourself in a bad way if you get in over your head. 

There is know tires that has sidewalls that won't tear or slice (we all know that). I believe that the MTR's have the best sidewall, but I have also seen the sidewall slice on a MTR in New Mexico that we had to use 7 plugs to get it to hold 6lbs of air. The best thing for tires is a driver that pays attention.

Agreed, kevlar tires are superior...cost could be an issue.  I would love to budget these some day for my Jeep.  The military uses them on Hum-vees for good reason!  I have had great luck with my BFG's though, and I work them pretty hard.

I have replaced tires with 20K+ miles of tread left, but with destroyed side walls.  If you play in the rocks, you will tear or damage the sidewalls.  Kevlar tires again offer better resistance to that kind of abuse. 

4-wheelin as a hobby is a costly one.  4-wheelin while touring the country and sticking to fire roads, you can have an awsome time seeing areas you otherwise could not without spending $30K.  Keeping it simple is still enjoyable but do take along enough tools for minor repairs.  A GPS suited for off road can also be a life saver.  Not the same type as in your every day driver, but one with a USGS topo map.  You may think your lost, but there may be another dirt road right out of site that could lead you to help.  Your average on road gps sont see these roads.

For Wheelin said:

I have replaced tires with 20K+ miles of tread left, but with destroyed side walls.  If you play in the rocks, you will tear or damage the sidewalls. ...

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That's a fact.  I ripped up a couple of the sidewalls on my last set of MT/R Kevlars (33") playing in the rocks, but the tires still hold air.  Replaced them because I wanted 35-inchers and beadlock wheels.

More than anything else you need good driving skills and a gentle touch on the accelerator and as Dirty Harry said, a man has got to know his limitations, and that extends to off road driving skills and the limitations of the vehicle. I have owned 3 Willys, Dodge Powerwagon, 4 4WD SUV's, 3 Toyota 4x4 pickups, and currently a 3/4 ton 4WD Chevy diesel powered pickup. The Toyota 4WD mini trucks would go anywhere that the CJ7 could go and would do so on many an occasion. Larger vehicles are not as nimble off road as smaller vehicles and their drivers tend to do a lot more damage.

I photographed a local off-road recreation area for off-road vehicles during a Hummer event and there were both the pure military versions and the suburban versions for the general public to use driving to the grocery store. After watching the participants it was very obvious that even a Hummer can get stuck with a novice at the wheel. At the end of the obstacle course was a very difficult section and most of the Hummers failed to negotiate it. After the Hummer sponsored event was over I saw a family with their little Suzuki Brute negotiate the same difficult section with no more effort than had they been driving down the fairway in a golf cart.

In the west there are usually roads that were built by the logging companies for their operations or by the US Forestry Service for the logging companies use. These roads tend to be very narrow and the turns can be very tight. There are distinct advantages to a narrow and short wheelbase vehicle which is where the Toyota mini-trucks and the Jeeps excel. The downside with the Jeeps is that they are easier to put into a spin and easier to flip and the extra length of the CJ7 greatly improves its stability over the CJ5. You also get a much smoother rid on the highway with the CJ7 or the Toyota trucks and having a IFS front end makes a big difference over a solid front axle. The IFS is why I went with a GM truck over a Ford for my 3/4 ton diesel 4WD truck.

In addition to the skill of the driver there is no substitute for ground clearance which can vary more than you might think with trucks and 4WD SUV's as well as the amount of protection that comes straight from the factory. In terms of vehicles built for off-road straight from the factory nothing compares to the Toyota 4x4 trucks. With every other trucks and 4x4 I ended up adding shields and braided hoses, and extra shock mounts and shocks and reinforcing the axles.

I would also choose a vehicle that has a lot of dealerships in the area where I will be traveling to get repairs or parts as needed. If a motor mount breaks and you need a new one it may be readily available with a Ford or Chevy but you may be stuck at a motel for a few days waiting for parts for another make.

I carried around a winch for years but never used it to pull my truck out only those of other people who went places that a smart person would have known to avoid. Now I don't bother with a winch and only carry a snatch strap. If I was to get a winch I would get one that was removable and could be mounted to either a rear or front hitch receiver. Sometimes the wisest course of action is to retreat and get back to harder ground.

For a bare minimum all I look for is a 4x4 with 7" or more ground clearance and both high and low range gear box options. The low range changes the gear by a factor of 1:2.75 or thereabouts so that 3rd gear is lower than 1st gear in the high or normal range. This is equally important to having 4WD in terms of traveling off road and getting pack with the vehicle and your passengers in one piece with nothing broken or bruised. An automatic trans is better than a manual with clutch for most drivers and an automatic can take more abuse without damage.

elkhornsun said:

...I photographed a local off-road recreation area for off-road vehicles during a Hummer event and there were both the pure military versions and the suburban versions for the general public to use driving to the grocery store. After watching the participants it was very obvious that even a Hummer can get stuck with a novice at the wheel. ..

..I saw a family with their little Suzuki Brute negotiate the same difficult section with no more effort than had they been driving down the fairway in a golf cart.

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The H-1 with its independent suspension really isn't the best setup for trails and rock-crawling not to mention it is way too wide, but then again it was designed to be a vehicle to fulfill a military mission.  I watched a military type H-1 in Moab (taking tourists on Hell's Revenge) struggle on a simple rock step that we popped right up and over.

The little Suzuki's are great off-road vehicles due in large part to their light weight.  We followed a little Suzuki at the last Chili Challenge off-road event and I was always impressed with how capable the little guy was.  There are some downsides with it though - with its small tires he struggled on many obstacles and the very short wheelbase makes it potentially dangerous on a steep climb or descent.

In the bottom line it is all about driver skill combined with the right equipment. 

John Canfield said:

bottom line it is all about driver skill combined with the right equipment.

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Exactly!  And how much money you are willing to spend.

Last year I had lots of fun in Death Valley and then again at Moab with a $1500 Bronco II.  It's a capable, maneuverable vehicle like the original Jeep with a short wheelbase and good ground clearance.  And thanks to Consumers Reports giving them a "Not Acceptable" back in the 1980s, they're dirt cheap.  At that price, if I broke it, no biggie. <g>

I expect you could do much the same with the later model Ford Explorer, which is the Bronco II's successor. It's pretty much the same vehicle, just lowered a bit and wide-tracked to improve it's highway stability.  Or any of the other small SUV's.

Most of the trails the group goes on are basically just dirt roads.  To me, it's not so much seeing what the vehicle can do, but going places and seeing things you wouldn't experience otherwise.

Airing down tires makes the ride over rough terrain much smoother - the impact of small rocks and such are absorbed by the tires instead of being transmitted to the vehicle.  You air down when you leave the pavement, then reinflate when you're done so you only run low pressure while traveling at low speeds.  A good, high volume air compressor is a must.  I like the big 12 volt compressor from Harbor Freight, it's a knock-off of the $200+ units used by the "real" off-roaders.

If you want a fun ride, come with me to our Palm Springs transmitter site.  1200 ft. rise in just under a mile through rocky soil straight up the side of a mountain.  It'll burn out an automatic transmission if you don't work it right and you'll lose your coolant at the top unless you let the engine idle for 10 minutes before shutting it off.  Going down is fun, too.

I just recently rejoined this web site.  I am a moderator on a jeep website and have loved going off road for many years.  I have had Wranglers in the past.  I enjoy what I call Expedition Off Roading.  I explore remote sites and like to take any backroad trail to it's end to see what is there.  I am the guy that will drive around a tough spot especially if I am alone.  I like to know that I can get there and back.

Therefore I took a different approach to choosing and modifying my vehicle of choice.  I have a ( 2 actually another story), Jeep Commander.  The Jeep Commander was only made for a few years.  I guess it was to big and competed with the Cherokee.  It has a very capable four wheel drive system and can crawl up places that my wrangler had to take a run at.  It is a little tight in some confined roads but I have never failed to get where I wanted to go.

I added an auxillary gas tank as well as a NATO can on the back to give me 55 gallons of confidence about not running out of gas.  I also have steel front and rear bumpers and a removeable winch on a cradle for each end.  I also put a lift on it and it has skid plates from one end to the other.

I think this thread has a lot of good advice.  Taking your time and having experience driving off road is the most important off road accessory. 

I plan on joining some of you in Quartsite this coming January.

We've run trails with Broncos, Scouts, trucks, Wranglers, various SUVs, Suzukis (but never a Commander that I can recall) and we did a bunch of trails around the San Juan's with our Jeep Liberty. 

We've seen good drivers suffer from inadequate equipment, we've seen inexperienced drivers with good equipment struggle, and then it's always interesting watching inexperienced drivers with a poorly set up vehicle (or a vehicle that has no business on a difficult trail.)  :