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Author Topic: World Cup Football (Soccer)  (Read 13512 times)

UK-RV

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World Cup Football (Soccer)
« on: June 12, 2006, 11:15:05 AM »
Hi Guys

I think I may upset you with this, but here goes :-

After watching most of the World Cup on TV, I switched on for the USA v Czech game this morning.

Most of the games have started broadcasting just 5 minutes before Kick-Off, with no pre-match build-up or National Anthems - fair enough as the game is no big thing over here.

But I was appalled when I started to watch the USA coverage this morning.

At the start of every game, both teams are presented to the crowd and each countries National Anthem is broadcast. The opposing supporters will stand and be silent for the opposite teams anthem and usually sing their hearts out at their own.

What happened on TV today - the USA anthem is broadcast and then the Czech anthem is replaced with commercials - how rude and disrespectful !!

The USA often wonder why people are against them - I feel this is a perfect example of why. There doesn't appear to be any recognition/respect for anyone else's culture.

Football is a World Sport which brings nations together in friendly competition - it is played with Fair Play and Respect at its heart.

I do hope the TV stations change this practice as the competition progresses.

Paul

JohnSandyWhite

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #1 on: June 12, 2006, 11:28:19 AM »
Football is a World Sport which brings nations together in friendly competition - it is played with Fair Play and Respect at its heart.

 ;D I agree Football is a World Sport.
 :o I disagree that it brings together Nations in friendly competition.
 :o It hasn't been played with Fair Play and Respect at its heart since I were a lad.

 ??? Grown men hugging, kissing and crying?  ;D
Been there, done that. But I never stop learning

Carl L

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #2 on: June 12, 2006, 01:06:45 PM »
Paul,

You watched the program on a US station, right?  Broadcasting in the USA, right?  About how many Czechs might be watching that broadcast?   As many as 10?  If I were watching the broadcast in the Czech Republic and the station cut away during the US anthem, no big deal.  I have heard it before, I would not be standing at attention, and I would doubt of many Czech viewers were doing the same.   In fact, I might be out getting a beer during the playing.   This all presumes I would be watching a soccer game on TV.

As long as respect is rendered at the event itself that is enough.
Carl L/LA   [Forum Staff]  KI6SEZ

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Alaskansnowbirds

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2006, 03:55:10 PM »
Paul,

You watched the program on a US station, right?  Broadcasting in the USA, right?  About how many Czechs might be watching that broadcast?   As many as 10?

snip

As many as 10? It all depends on what part of the US you're talking about. Back in the steel mill areas you will find large populations of people from Czech descent. I'm sure they are just as proud of their heritage as you are of yours.

Sorry Carl, I agree with Paul. The US's reputation as "ugly America" is well earned by the way we respect other nations. Just watch the stands at any sporting event while the National Anthem is being played. We don't even respect our own National Anthem.
Don & Peg
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Weather at Camp Verde, AZ.

Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2006, 08:14:07 PM »
Well Paul, we had some English visitors at the house last year and they attended an event at the local yacht club with us. It was the Memorial Day weekend, our equivalent of Armistice Day. Chris (my other half) was invited to be part of a flag-bearing procession, which was followed by the Pledge Of Allegiance and a recognition of troops currently in combat. One of our English friends said in a sarcastic tone "typical American isn't it".

Why would anyone from England expect respect for the Czech national anthem when one of your fellow countrymen can't respect the honoring of U.S. troops who have fallen in defence of their country?

As for soccer, I turn to a different TV station if/when soccer comes on. Anyone attending a typical English club soccer game is in for a real treat - English fans participating in some really ugly violence. If it's an away game, club or international, and their team loses, the English fans go on a rampage throughout the host city, causing endless property damage and go on a witch hunt for locals with the intent of causing serious personal injury. Then they get on the train to head home and destroy the interior of the train.

FWIW I attended my first rugby game at the ripe old age of 6 months (my Dad used to take me to all the local home games) and I've been a rugby supporter ever since. I've yet to see any violence at a rugby game or in the host city afterwards, and certainly none instigated by Welsh or American fans against their English counterparts.

Seems to me that your countrymen could learn a lot about respect for other cities and countries before any of their bretheren complain about not being able to listen to the Czech national anthem on U.S. TV.

Have a nice day!  ;D
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 08:16:20 PM by Tom »
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Jeff

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2006, 08:29:35 PM »
Paul:

But we do stand for the Canadian National Anthem at every hockey game played in the US. 8)
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 09:05:15 PM by Jeff Cousins »

UK-RV

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2006, 09:04:10 PM »
Tom,

OMG !!

OK - now Ive spent a few minutes and can reply calmly.

Shall I compare your statements of "..English fans go on a rampage.." and "..go on a witch hunt for locals.." with the thought that all US soldiers committed crimes at Abu Garab ? - of course not - there are a VERY small number of idiots who watch football as there are a VERY small number of idiots in Military uniform (all nationalities).

Your house guest was outspoken - but you might compare his background of our Armistice Day (2 minute silence nationwide, prayer, poppies) with the US version with the razzmatazz and (to reserved Brits) OTT actions - if he felt this was indeed OTT, he really should have kept his mouth shut - Im sorry, but I cant be responsible for him !!

For my part, I didn't witness ANY Memorial Day actions last month - the only thing I knew of Memorial Day was on TV and Radio news stating "get out and enjoy your HOLIDAY weekend".

Generally, the US is a very proud nation and knows how to show that pride - you do see it everywhere.

I do wish we Brits could take a bit more pride in OUR Country too.

Back to my original complaint - the TV station this morning had a perfect opportunity to show respect for the Czechs by allowing just 5 minutes to air their anthem, rather than showing commercials.

Paul





Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #7 on: June 12, 2006, 09:21:19 PM »
Quote
....you might compare his background of our Armistice Day (2 minute silence nationwide, prayer, poppies) with the US version with the razzmatazz and (to reserved Brits) OTT actions

My memory of Armistice Day is a lot more than 2 minutes silence and laying a wreath at the Cenotaph. Lots of local parades including police, boy scouts, girl guides, St. John's Ambulance and anyone who wears a uniform. That's not razzmatazz  ???  ;D

Quote
... I didn't witness ANY Memorial Day actions last month..

It was all around, should anyone have chosen to look.

Quote
...the TV station this morning had a perfect opportunity to show respect for the Czechs by allowing just 5 minutes to air their anthem, rather than showing commercials.

Unlike the BBC, U.S. TV stations have to make money and, unlike American Football where the action on the field stops for TV commercials, cutting away from continuing play to ads would be equally objectionable to some folks.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 09:22:59 PM by Tom »
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UK-RV

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #8 on: June 12, 2006, 09:46:26 PM »
Tom

The BBC is just one of many channels in the UK - all the others rely on advertising revenue.

US TV could have cut the US anthem too and doubled their advertising time/revenue as money is SO much more important than respecting other nationalities. ;D

At this point in time tthe US needs to open it's arms to welcome/respect other nationalities/faiths rather than just preach "the American way".

Nothing wrong with America, but there are other people on the planet too.

Paul

Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #9 on: June 12, 2006, 10:39:56 PM »
tthe US needs to open it's arms to welcome/respect other nationalities/faiths

 ??? Just look around Paul. The U.S. welcomes people of all nationalities and faiths more than any other nation.
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UK-RV

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #10 on: June 12, 2006, 11:15:30 PM »

LOL - yes Tom - stay in your bubble and all will be well - NOT.

The many, many thousands of Mexicans protesting in the US at the moment no doubt appreciate your warm welcome.

Your President seems to think that allowing them to enter the US for a set period of time - to do all the crap jobs the Americans wont do - and then being sent home again is also 'welcoming'. Invite them, let them prove their worth to your Country and then reward them with a green card may be a better way of welcoming other nations.

And this is how your nearest neighbours are treated !

But of course "The U.S. welcomes people of all nationalities and faiths more than any other nation."

All this discussion over an Anthem - cant you even concede that it would have been better if the Anthem was aired ?

I havent asked that the Anthems for each Country be played at the start of every game, just that if you are going to play the USA, then you should air the opponent too - not too difficult to accept is it?

Paul

Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #11 on: June 12, 2006, 11:26:17 PM »
Paul,

There's one word missing when it comes to discussing immigrants from any source - legal. There's a well defined process for legal immigration into the U.S. that millions of people have followed.

As for the anthem issue, try calling the network/station that cut to commercials. There's nothing that anyone here on this forum can do about it. Personally, I always respect the anthems of other countries - I either stand in silence or, if I've been able to learn the words and music, I'll sing their anthem. I've never heard a single English person sing the Welsh or U.S. national anthems at any kind of game, although I've sung the English anthem countless times. I've even heard English fans boo loudly during the singing/playing of other anthems; Quite respectful.
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 11:31:57 PM by Tom »
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Smoky

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #12 on: June 13, 2006, 05:21:47 AM »
I have to agree with Paul on this one, and I am pure American.

World soccer is a "world" event.  Just like the Olympics.  It is NOT an American event.

It would be considered awful if we cut to advertising when a non American anthem was being played at an Olympic event.

Paul I do hope you have enough understanding in your heart to allow for the fact that America is new to football.  In our country football has an entirely different game and meaning, and we are only now really beginning to enter the world of non American football.  We have a lot to learn in this area.

That said, I think Americans are no worse than any other culture when it comes to manners.  What are often interpreted as "bad manners" are in many cases, on the global scale, simply cultural misunderstandings. 

For example, Americans are HORRIFIED at the fighting and stampeding that they see that goes on in other countries surrounding the World football matches.  This is VERY rare in our country, though it has on rare occasions happened, though not on the same scale as in Europe.

Maybe someday down the road we will see American stations honoring both country's anthems, and Americans wildly rampaging through stadiums, killing and injuring others,  during the World football matches.   ;D

At any rate, you can at least take some solace in the fact that the Americans were soundly defeated by the Csechs in a match that everyone expected the Americans to win.
Smoky S  Ham radio - W3PY

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JohnSandyWhite

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #13 on: June 13, 2006, 05:38:21 AM »
I do wish we Brits could take a bit more pride in OUR Country too.

 ??? So do I. But it will never happen while ever any Government allows immigration (illegal or otherwise) and preferential treatment to them over and above the natural born and bred. United Kingdom? Dis-United more like. I am not a political person (only ever voted once) but I believe more and more people are seriously thinking of backing the BNP.
I have to agree (up to a point) that the Americans do appear to go over the top when it comes to raising the flag and supporting the country. But hey? I can't see much wrong with that.  ;D
Been there, done that. But I never stop learning

Smoky

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #14 on: June 13, 2006, 06:00:20 AM »
John:

Thanks for saying that.  Believe me I appreciate hearing that from a non-American.

I think sometimes we Americans overcompensate because we have given an enormous number of lives and dollars trying to help other nations, only then to be accused of having ulterior motives and agendas.  While it is true that our government may sometimes use dollars to manipulate other nations, I know they do not use lives to do this.  And from an individual viewpoint, no American individual wants their precious tax dollars used for any other purpose than good purposes.  I sometimes worry that non-Americans hate Americans because of what governments do.

The global nature of the Internet has taught me that all individuals, all over the world, are basically the same.  It is our governments that are different.  I think one of the great benefits of the Internet is that it allows we individuals to break through the spin of media and the control of government and relate to each other without all the restrictions we used to have before the Internet.  I think 100 years from now the Internet will be looked back upon as a great world liberating force.

I hate to be an ugly American.  I am envious of Europeans because they are more cosmopolitan.  They have a better understanding of the world because they are more closely interconnected with other nations and also are exposed to many more languages.

I take every opportunity I can to be less ugly and more knowledgeable about other cultures.  This is not an easy task when one lives separated by many oceans from most other cultures.

That is why I am hoping that Paul (who began this thread) while he is correct in pointing the finger at an American oversight, can also find the love and understanding in his heart to look at us as individuals, and not some part of a mean and nasty army that is trying to be rude to the rest of the world.
Smoky S  Ham radio - W3PY

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Shayne

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #15 on: June 13, 2006, 08:50:30 AM »
While on the subject of anthems- It's very rude to play one anthem and not the other on the tube, but that was the stations desire not all Americans believe that way.   As a matter of fact I wish in most cases they wouldn't play either, cause when some of these so called entertainers decieve to put their own version of the National Anthem, I just cringe at the extended notes and screaming intpo the microphone.  That's not the way it was written and composed and definately an insult to the Anthem as to the way it should be performed.  SAndy Patti sang the pro[er version at the Philly commencement several years ago and if you have any patriotic feeling whatsoever, it will bring chills down your spine as you hear it.  To me that's what it's about. It gets you attention.  And as for as border control, It's become a necessity to do so. We may be the richest country on earth but the people just can't afford the laxitivity of the rules by which this great country controls it's borders.  Millions are here and have contributed nothing and we are supporting them.  Wrong.  If we want to support someone, let's start here at home.   Let the new comers to this country do it legally and learn to speak our language not we learn theirs.    I'm off the soap box.  Some may disagree but that's my opinion. To each his own, but I think I speak as a majority.
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #16 on: June 13, 2006, 11:45:48 AM »
LOL Shayne, you say it like you see it and don't use unnecessary words to do so. I agree with almost everything you said.

Personally, I'm all for both anthems at a sporting event and I really enjoy seeing/hearing supporters from opposing teams sing their respective national anthem with pride.

BTW did you know that we here in the U.S. have a wonderful and patriotic hymn that shares the same tune with the English national anthem? It's "America" aka "My country 'tis of thee", written by Dr. Sam­u­el F. Smith in 1832.
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Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #17 on: June 13, 2006, 11:52:25 AM »
.....Government allows immigration (illegal or otherwise) and preferential treatment to them over and above the natural born and bred.

John,

The stories I've heard from family and friends in the UK just astound me. Back in the 60's a controversial politician named Enoch Powell continually warned the UK government and UK citizens that "if you open the door just a little, you'll be sorry one day". For anyone who's interested, here's a little history of the man and his views on national identity and immigration.
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Shayne

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #18 on: June 13, 2006, 01:55:43 PM »
Totally Agree  It ticks me off when anyone's Anthem is being played and some SOB stands yakking up a storms and has no idea what his or her mouth is rattling off.  If I was 30 yrs younger I'd probably go to jail for decking the lout.  Besides we can't blame Pres Bush for this dang mess,  he didn't create it,  but someones's got to clean it up and we're only 70- years to late in doing so.  If you listen to Gore, Kennedy, and Kerry and crew they would have everybody on on relief and no one would pay.  So figure that one out.  I sure can't.  Don't believe in mincing words on patritism, too, too, too, dang many of us served and way too many paid too dearly with their lives to allow this crap that's going on in this country today.  If you don't like  it, get the Hell out.  If you want to enter, do it the legal and right way, I've got no problem with that and then I can respect you.  Wow  Sorry for the soap box. 
Old, Stubborn, Opinionated, Set in my Ways, and Independent,  IMHO

Ron

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #19 on: June 13, 2006, 05:33:37 PM »
Watch out here come my comments and I tend to call a spade a spade with no beating around the bush.  In Paul's original post he complained that the US TV went to a commercial break during the singing of another countries National Anthem.  Well I have seen our TV stations go to Commercial break during our own National Anthem.  The last time this happend frankly I was glad since the person singing the National Anthem was butchering it so bad.  Like Shane mentioned some of the people they select to sing the National Anthem should be Tared and feathered for they way they butcher it.

As for station breaks IMHO the News Media have no honor, and I don't care from which country they are from, they have no respect for anything, anybody or any country and the stations they are affiliated with are just as bad since they broadcast what ever the news media give them.

It is easy for some to criticize the other guy or the other country but before doing so they should look at themselves and in their own back yard.

What CBS, ABC,  NBC or any other network  does for commercial break is not influenced by the American citizens so don't hold us responsible.  The networks have done things like this before and even to the American Anthem and I am sure it will happen again because IMHO they are driven by Greed.


Was it the right thing to do NO, will it happen again probably and next time it could very well be during our own Anthem.  Do I approve of this behavior NO, can I do anything about it NO, can you do anything about it NO.  So let it go and just consider who is responsible, the networks and let it go.

Another possibility it that the feed from where ever the games are being held went to commercial break forcing every body getting that particular feed to do the same.  Not an excuse just a possibility.

Enough said on this subject.
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Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #20 on: June 13, 2006, 05:56:32 PM »
Paul's first line of his lead message read:

Quote
I think I may upset you with this, but here goes

It didn't necessarily upset anyone, but it stirred emotions a little. Helps break the boredom around here  ;D
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 05:59:53 PM by Tom »
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UK-RV

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #21 on: June 13, 2006, 07:45:14 PM »
Thanks for adding that last bit Tom - my original post wasnt intended to start a fire, just pass an observation.

This next bit isnt intended to stoke it up either :-

US Immigration :-

I TOTALLY agree with you that the ideal way to contribute to a Country is thru legal channels.

However, the US offers a VERY limited choice in applying for a work permit and/or residency - and why shouldnt they, its their Country.

But, think of all the Mexicans who have been doing the crap jobs in your Country (we have them too), because no US citizen will do the jobs.

How would you cope if they werent here?

You have allowed this situation for many, many years and only after 9/11 have you recognised a potential problem with ignoring they are here.

OK, let them apply to become US Citizens - what are the choices :-

1. Green Card Lottery - more chance of winning the Lotto and not needing to come to the US.
2. Skilled Workforce Program - I dont think cleaners are classed in the same vein as Doctors, so no chance there.
3. Entertainers, etc - no, I dont think so.
4. Financial Invester - minimum $0.5M to invest in a deprived area of the US.

Actually, I just found a link with a little more than the above - http://www.visalaw.com/03may4/2may403.html

You will soon see that there are very few legal avenues open to the tyoe of worker you actually NEED in your Country.

The scheme suggested by President Bush is potentially an excellent way of introducing a new workforce into the US - but to tell them they can work the crap jobs for x years and then be sent home is a bit much - no wonder they are all protesting, and what do you expect will happen when they vanish after the x years - you cant find the illegal ones you already have.

The UK suffers from a very similar shortage of workers - except we are 'importing' Bus Drivers, Electricians, Plumbers even Doctors and Nurses to fill our job vacancies - I worked in one of our Unemployment Offices for 6 months and was amazed at the numbers being invited from Eastern Europe.

Of course, we have 1/2 million lazy so and so's getting paid by the state for sitting on their backsides - now that opens a whole new debate.

Paul

Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #22 on: June 13, 2006, 08:07:58 PM »
However, the US offers a VERY limited choice in applying for a work permit and/or residency..

There are more legal ways for people to work in this country than you could imagine and many employers exploit these rules to legally employ people here. There's no reason for anyone to be here illegally.

Quote
...think of all the Mexicans who have been doing the crap jobs in your Country...

Think of all the Welsh coal miners who worked for a pitance at English-owned coal mines and spent all their money at English-owned company stores. I came from a coal mining family - my father, uncles and grandfathers all worked in the mines. My Dad started work in the mines at 12 years of age and ultimately suffered pneumoconiosis (aka black lung disease), all to line the coffers of the English coal mine owners. Do you really want to talk about "crap jobs in your country"?

To add insult to injury, Welsh kids who attended English-run schools were beaten for speaking their native Welsh tongue while attending schools in Wales because the English-speaking teachers were too lazy or incapable of learning the Welsh language. If you haven't seen the movie "How green was my valley", it might be educational.

Quote
Of course, we have 1/2 million lazy so and so's getting paid by the state for sitting on their backsides

I'm ashamed to say that I have friends and relatives among that 1/2 million.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 08:37:44 PM by Tom »
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Ron

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #23 on: June 13, 2006, 08:25:52 PM »
Your post did indeed prompt discussion.  I doubt if it really upset anybody.


As for the illegal residents here.  There are several avenues for workers to enter this country legally and it is done all the time.  However, if anybody chooses to enter illegally then why should they be allowed to stay.  That is only rewarding them for their crime and letting them keep the proceed of their crime.  But anybody employing illegals should also be held accountable with heavy fines and contributions to the social security system to help replace that which has been lost do to the illegal workers they hired.  The illegal workers are not only holding as you called crap jobs but constructions jobs and others.  It is a problem but rewarding criminals for their crime is not a way to fix the problem.
Ron & Sam-home is where we park it. Currently located   HERE

UK-RV

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #24 on: June 13, 2006, 08:41:50 PM »

But anybody employing illegals should also be held accountable with heavy fines and contributions to the social security system

Ron - now THAT is the only way you are going to deal with the people you already have here - if employers are too scared to hire them, the majority will go home.

Of course, that does then leave you with nobody doing the work.  ;D

Paul



Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #25 on: June 13, 2006, 08:50:58 PM »
Of course, that does then leave you with nobody doing the work.

Not so Paul. Among the millions of legal foreign workers are Hispanic folks who work in the fields and make their contribution to American society.

Personally, I believe the real threat is from folks who come here legally to be educated and gain work experience, then go home to their native land to set up competing companies. China, for example, is our largest potential competitior, followed by India. I personally know quite a few folks, both Chinese and Indian, who followed the route I'm describing and returned to their homeland. I've said for a long time that we'd all better learn Mandarin.
« Last Edit: June 13, 2006, 08:55:12 PM by Tom »
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Ron

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #26 on: June 13, 2006, 08:54:23 PM »
We also have too many freeloaders that are healthy but lazy drawing paychecks for doing nothing.  Stop those free paychecks and make them go to work.
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JohnSandyWhite

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #27 on: June 14, 2006, 04:33:42 AM »
 :( Yes Paul we have illegal's working in the UK doing jobs that our lazy B*("&&(* don't want to do. The employers have been charged for these offences at times (when caught).

Yes Tom. I come from the same background. ALL the coalmines were owned by the English landed gentry. We had a lot of Welsh working down our local Coal mine too along side my father and myself.

Enoch Powell should have been Prime Minister. Perhaps even the President of Britain.

We have the same in the UK Ron. We should make them do the jobs the illegals are currently doing instead of giving them money and housing for nothing. IMH&VHO.
 ;D
Been there, done that. But I never stop learning

Tom

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #28 on: June 14, 2006, 08:46:50 AM »
Thanks for the observations John. I have to agree that Enoch Powell should have been PM.

BTW were English kids beaten for speaking their native tongue at English schools ?  ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #29 on: June 14, 2006, 08:52:05 AM »
BTW were English kids beaten for speaking their native tongue at English schools ?  ;D

 :D We were all beaten Tom. None of us could speak the Queen's english. I'm a Yorkshireman.  ;D :D ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #30 on: June 14, 2006, 09:23:08 AM »
LOL John.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #31 on: June 14, 2006, 02:46:40 PM »
Ron Ruward makes a good point.  Paul, please do not judge individual Americans based on what the media does.

Paul, you made an excellent point in your initial post, and I defended your original view, but I believe you are going way to far down the road with this.  You said:

“But, think of all the Mexicans who have been doing the crap jobs in your Country (we have them too), because no US citizen will do the jobs.

How would you cope if they weren’t here?”

Gee.  That simply is not true.  What are your circumstances?  Do you live in the United States?  If so, where?  I spend my winters near the Mexican border.  I have hired Mexicans, not to do crap jobs, but to do craftsman jobs because they are good at it.  I admire working Mexicans.  Unlike some other segments of the U.S. population, they have a very high work ethic and are trustoworthy.  And they exude a great happiness and joy towards life.

I think we would cope just fine without Mexicans.  Plenty of non Mexicans to do the crap jobs, whatever they are (I don’t know).  I have cleaned bathrooms in my time, and that is the closest thing I can think of to what you vaguely refer to as crap jobs.

Paul…. I can’t understand where you are headed with this, other than to criticize Americans for some things they do wrong and lots of things they don’t do wrong.  Sounds to me like you are “out to get” Americans.  Not a very neighborly attitude.  Likely I misread your intentions.

But that is a popular attitude overseas I admit.  I sometimes wonder if some kind of envy is behind it.  If so, there is little to be envious about, IMO.  America has made some tough choices and paid some heavy sacrifices for them.

Just for clarification, do you feel anyone who wants to can just enter the United States and take advantage of any benefits offered to citizens?  When you say if we don’t allow them, “Of course, that does then leave you with nobody doing the work.” It tells me you do not really know what goes on here.  There are plenty of people to do the work.

Why don’t we just leave it at the fact that the American media showed lack of thought in not allowing both anthems to be broadcast?
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #32 on: June 15, 2006, 10:41:47 AM »
Before I respond, Ive just seen the following video on TV - hilarious - http://www.golakes.co.uk/worldcupsheep/


Smoky (and anyone else) - apologies if that is the impression I gave off - certainly not intended.

My comments are only made based on looking at Immigration requirements for Ann-Marie and myself, as we were actually looking at the potential in moving here and buying a business.

We soon found it near impossible to do.

So, if it is that difficult for us (We dont want to be forced to spend a $0.5M investment in a 'high unemployment area' - been there and done that) it must surely be near impossible for those without the cash.

My comments on the 'crap jobs' were taken (perhaps too literally) from Pres Bush's statement of 'the jobs no American will do' - I wouldn't have thought you have too many people turning down the really good jobs (whatever they are).

I mentioned earlier that I worked in an (un)employment office in the UK and saw, first hand, the number and type of jobs that nobody would do. These jobs remained empty for months and months or had a really high staff turnover rate. We owned a couple of retail stores and filling basic cashier vacancies was a nightmare.

Our Country is encouraging people from overseas to comes and work in the UK - the people from Poland I met whilst at the employment office appeared so grateful for the opportunity offered to them.

Im certainly not anti-American (I dont think Im anti-anyone) - I really have met some wonderful Americans.

But, I am definately anti-American on a LOT of your Countries attitudes and policies - hell, Im pretty anti on a lot of ours too  ;D

So, apologies if you feel my comments were anti-you, that wasn't intended.

It is just casual debate over issues (once again) we can do very little to change.

Paul





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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #33 on: June 15, 2006, 08:36:48 PM »
.....we were actually looking at the potential in moving here and buying a business. We soon found it near impossible to do.

Paul,

Find yourself a good immigration lawyer who knows the ropes and doesn't give up after reading some web site. But be prepared to go through a process, or series of processes and to be patient.

Quote
....it must surely be near impossible for those without the cash.

We came here (legally) 25 years ago with little money and whatever we could fit in a few suitcases. Millions more did it, some with less than the little cash we had.

Quote
.... were taken (perhaps too literally) from Pres Bush's statement of 'the jobs no American will do'

Yes, probably too literally. There are people here who can and would do those jobs, but not for the pittance being paid.

Quote
..... saw, first hand, the number and type of jobs that nobody would do.

You forgot to mention that folks could make more money by living off the state. Remember, I have friends and relatives in that 1/2 million.
« Last Edit: June 15, 2006, 10:23:41 PM by Tom »
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #34 on: June 16, 2006, 06:41:01 AM »
BTW Paul, congrats on the win yesterday. I turned the tube on at half time and watched some of the 2nd half as well as some replays from the first half. Little old Trinidad and Tobago were doing a great job of defending and were really close with that first half near-goal. It looked like England was going to have to settle for a scoreless draw, but making the substitution late in the game saved the day for them.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #35 on: June 16, 2006, 10:34:01 AM »
Thanks Tom

Unfortunately, if the team continue as they've played the first two games they will soon be heading home.

But I guess it could be argued that a win is a win however badly you scrape thru with it.

If we do lose the next round, it would certainly save me the hassle of tracking down CGs with suitable TV stations  ;D

Paul

BTW Ive just watched the great display by Argentina, but haven't had chance to see if we are due to meet them further in the competition - we are STUFFED if we do play them.





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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #36 on: June 16, 2006, 12:29:55 PM »
Paul, thanks very much for your explanation.  It explained a lot of things for me.

I can see that the tougher immigration process has affected you in a personal way, something I did not understand when first reading your messages.  Indeed immigration was a lot easier decades ago.  In fact, if you go back to when our nation began the process of changing from native Americans to immigrants, we gladly welcomed immigrants.  There were some negatives, of course, such as indentureship, but on the whole America, in its early days, was a grand melting pot of many nations.  That is one of the things that made us strong, and we are proud of our heritage. 

However that was then and this is now.  Because America is such an attractive place to live (for some people) it continues to draw more than its fair share of potential immigrants.  Also, more than its fair share of abusive intruders who attempt to siphon off the riches without paying their share of the cost.  I think you know this is true, and I think that is not a description of your own efforts.  I take it you would like to be a full citizen and share in both the benefits and responsibilities of citizenship.  Those who think this is a land of milk and honey to be had for the grabbing, are the ones who likely will be disappointed as our policies tighten.

But you have been caught in the switch.  Like any change in a major direction, it starts out rough and takes time to work itself into an acceptable and fair plan.  If becoming a citizen of the United States were simple and easy, then everyone would do it and the country would suffer greatly.  But if one is serious about citizenship, then the amount of effort required would certainly lead to a worthy reward and something to be quite proud of.  I know if I decided I preferred living in another land, I would work very hard to accomplish my goal.

What specifically are the main difficulties preventing you from becoming a citizen here?  Maybe if we understood more why you are having doors closed on your attempts to move here we could better understand where you are coming from.
« Last Edit: June 16, 2006, 03:42:59 PM by Smoky »
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #37 on: June 16, 2006, 03:14:00 PM »
Paul,

We had a question while watching the second half of the T&T game - any idea how much David Beckham (sp?) earns? I assume he has to be the top paid player in the UK. Won't be long now before he's getting a bit past it for playing soccer though.

A side note ....

You may not recall the heyday of George Best, by far one of the best players the UK ever produced. So much talent. But he discovered women and booze and, after repeatedly faling to turn up for practice, was kicked off one team after another. He eventually came to California in the late 70's and played for the San Jose Earthquakes. Even as a washed up old player, he still had more talent than local folks had seen. IIRC he passed away a year or so ago.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #38 on: June 16, 2006, 04:48:43 PM »
Quote
But you have been caught in the switch.  Like any change in a major direction, it starts out rough and takes time to work itself into an acceptable and fair plan.  If becoming a citizen of the United States were simple and easy, then everyone would do it and the country would suffer greatly.  But if one is serious about citizenship, then the amount of effort required would certainly lead to a worthy reward and something to be quite proud of.  I know if I decided I preferred living in another land, I would work very hard to accomplish my goal.

Actually once upon a time it was, Smoky.  Back in the 1800s and early 1900s.   Buy a ticket, get on a boat, land in some American port and you got a start.    Come election time, a precinct worker for the local political would show up at your door and encourge you to vote and for the machine's candidates.  After a while, enough elections rolled by and you were a citizen.   One of the machine's judges would swear you in.   Anyway that is how my Svensker ancestors crept in under the wire.   

My Welsh ancestors qualified by shooting enough redcoats to make a country to be citizens of -- Battle of Saratoga. 

One way is even easier.   If your momma gives birth to you in the territory of the USA, including the decks of its warships, and she is subject to the jurisdiction of the USA (ie not a diplomat), then the moment you stick your head out, you are a US citizen.   Entitled to a passport and to vote at your 18th birthday.  Shoot, you can even run for Prez.   Ain't America grand?    ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #39 on: June 16, 2006, 10:46:19 PM »
Tom - I THINK Germanys Michael Ballack is the highest paid player in the UK at the moment - playing for Chelsea.


Following Englands poor performance, this joke is doing the rounds :-


It is just before the England v Brazil match. Ronaldinho goes into the Brazilian changing room to find all his teammates looking a bit glum.

"What's up?" he asks.

"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only England. They're sh*te and we can't be bothered."

Ronaldinho looks at them and says, "Well, I reckon I can beat them by myself. You lads go down the pub."

So Ronaldinho goes out to play England by himself and the rest of the Brazilian team go off for a few jars.

After a few pints they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads " Brazil 1 - England 0 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes)". He is beating England all by himself!

Anyway, a few pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers, "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on." They put the teletext on.

"Result from the Stadium 'Brazil 1 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes) - England 1 (Lampard 89 minutes)."

They can't believe it; he has single-handedly got a draw against England!! They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate Ronaldinho. They find him in the dressing room, still in his gear, sitting with his head in his hands.

He refuses to look at them. "I've let you down, I've let you down."

"Don't be daft, you got a draw against England, all by yourself. And they only scored at the very, very end!"

"No, no, I have, I've let you down. I got sent off after 12 minutes."

 ;D ;D
Paul

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #40 on: June 16, 2006, 10:47:23 PM »
Right you are Carl.  I was trying to make that clear and then explain how times have changed.  And yes there are some quick ways of becoming a citizen, but I don't think Paul will be able to utilize them.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #41 on: June 16, 2006, 10:48:17 PM »
LOL Paul, that's a real low blow for England.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #42 on: June 25, 2006, 05:04:48 PM »
English soccer fans again showed their respect for other countries yesterday by engaging in street fights with peaceful German supporters. England wasn't even playing, but their fans decided they'd pick on the locals anyway. 300 people were arrested, unfortunately most would be let out after only a brief stay.

This was not an isolated incident. It's happened numerous times over the years, both at world cup events and at regular 'away' games.

Too bad they can't respect other people and especially the country they're visiting.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #43 on: June 25, 2006, 05:13:22 PM »
Ah weell, those Englisher laddies just like to have fun.   I wonder how they rate the German coppers and nicks.   It was too bad that they couldn't make the world cup when LA hosted some of the games.  LAPD missed a chance at the Quadriennial Yob Cup.   ;D ;D 
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #44 on: June 25, 2006, 08:57:09 PM »
I wonder if we could arrange a match in Bagdad for the Brits and provide free transportation for the "Englisher laddies"; might solve our problems in Iraq. ::) ::)

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #45 on: June 25, 2006, 09:21:54 PM »
Too late, those arrangements were made 3 years ago or so.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #46 on: June 25, 2006, 11:49:53 PM »
ROTFL Jeff!

One correction - rather than generic "Brits", it should be more specifically English soccer fans.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #47 on: June 25, 2006, 11:55:05 PM »
ROTFL Jeff!

One correction - rather than generic "Brits", it should be more specifically English soccer fans.

Oops, sorry Tom, didn't mean to inpunge the rest of the Bristish isles. ;D

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #48 on: June 25, 2006, 11:56:41 PM »
LOL Jeff, it's OK if you mix up the Scots, Welsh and Irish, but don't associate any of us with the English  ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #49 on: June 28, 2006, 12:29:34 AM »
Here you go again Tom.

Please don't report half-facts - if you are going to state these things, at least give the full details.

I would be happy to read the news report containing the words ...engaging in street fights with peaceful German supporters..

400 English fans have been arrested out of a total 5,000 fans arrested throughout the tournament (so far) - given that Germany and England have by far (70%) the highest numbers of 'fans' at the tournament, your limited statement doesn't mean too much (and seems like you are determined to use every titbit of information to word any sort of attack on all but the US and the Welsh).

Rather than utilise one hyped headline, why not read all the headlines to get a balanced view! - http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2235276,00.html

Out of those 400, 3 were detained - for offences such as throwing chairs and breaking a table.

Given the past history of English fans, it beggars belief that the German authorities didn't have enough space to hold those arrested if they felt it justified ??

Don't get me wrong - I'm all in favour of locking people up and throwing away the key - I don't think enough is done to tackle crime of any sort, whether it be in Europe or elsewhere. Don't forget, Ive just spent 7 years fighting off drug addicts, shoplifters and burglars in my (old)retail stores.

BTW - what would be your excuse for the 110,000 annual deaths and/or serious injuries caused by guns in the USA each year ? (I think I would rather have a few thrown chairs).

I started this thread as a pretty simple observation on Respect (or lack of it) - I even apologised several times to anyone who may have been offended by 'my views'.

Tom - I think it is time you left your anti-English stance now and agree that we may disagree - I am certainly offended by your repeated negative swipes at the English.

Paul

PS I have been watching the World Cup on Canadian TV and am pleased that EVERY National Anthem has been aired to date.




« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 12:48:40 AM by UK-RV »

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #50 on: June 28, 2006, 12:53:24 AM »
Ohmygod, here we go again.

For about 8 years I sysopped on a British political forum on Compuserve.  I am an American, a native American, with a Swedish surname, so don't ask how that happened.  ;D   Every once in a while the Jocks, Taffs, and Sassanachs/Limeys would get into it, and the poor damn lone American would have to wade in and pull irate members out of the pile and take them off to section 0, the private staff section, and read them the riot act about being nice to each other and tolerent of other countries lest they leave us for a month or so in Coventry.

I have a announcement:

                  I ain't gonna do it here!

So you all be nice to each other, hear.  8)
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #51 on: June 28, 2006, 03:33:23 AM »
Gee Paul, I reported what I saw on TV, although I'm the first to complain that our TV news lacks both depth and breadth when it comes to international issues. What I saw was the same thing I've seen for many years at or following numerous international and club games involving English supporters. I've also seen it while watching British-made documentaries following Bobbies around after games. For whatever reason, some of these folks go looking for opposing fans just to beat them up.

Quote
...what would be your excuse for the 110,000 annual deaths and/or serious injuries caused by guns in the USA each year ?

Good try but, if you'd been around here longer, you'd know that I don't discuss gun-related issues. Actually, most folks here don't discuss the subject, partly because of the emotions on both sides. It's one of those subjects like religion and politics that long-time members agreed among themselves not to discuss in the interests of harmony. Occasionally someone will throw in a gun-related comment in hopes of stirring the pot, but most folks ignore it.
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 03:47:15 AM by Tom »
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #52 on: June 28, 2006, 03:38:01 AM »
LOL Carl, you don't want the Sheriff's badge back?

BTW two of my pastimes are teasing Englishmen and teasing salesmen. The Englishman who sold me the boat was in deep trouble  ;D  But he was a good sport and we subsequently became friends.

I've also taken my share of abuse from Englishmen  :(
« Last Edit: June 28, 2006, 03:52:03 AM by Tom »
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #53 on: June 29, 2006, 06:39:35 AM »
I've also taken my share of abuse from Englishmen  :(

 ;D You should see the latest advertisement on TV for Pot Noodles Tom. It's the Welsh miners working down the Pot Noodle mine. Isn't it?  ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #54 on: June 29, 2006, 09:17:56 AM »
LOL John, I haven't seen that ad, but I bet they're all singing too  ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #55 on: June 29, 2006, 09:52:20 AM »
 :) There is a little mention of it here :- >> IC Wales - Pot Noodle <<. There is even a game to play :- http://www.fuelofbritain.co.uk/  ::)
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #56 on: June 29, 2006, 11:41:04 AM »
Another anti-Welsh campaign by English company owners. Sounds like they even coerced some of their Welsh workers into appearing in the ads. I can hear it now - "be in the ads or be on the dole".

Maybe the colliery boys will organize a bus trip to meet with the execs and whisper some advice in their ears  ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #57 on: June 29, 2006, 11:49:27 AM »
Tom,

You can view the ad here http://www.visit4info.com/details.cfm?adid=33280 just hope it doesn't make you home sick  :) :)
Regards Mick & Pat Podmore.

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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #58 on: June 29, 2006, 12:01:03 PM »
 ??? I searched everywhere for that one Mick.  ::) You have to admit Tom. Is is a good advert?  ;)
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #59 on: June 29, 2006, 12:21:22 PM »
Thanks for the link Mick. It's definitely an insult to Welsh culture and heritage. Obviously produced/promoted by non-Welsh speaking folks - they've even spelled the name of the town (mentioned at the beginning of the commentary) incorrectly on the web page; Always a dead giveaway.

Maybe it's payback for the folk songs written and sung by Max Boyce about the abysmal performance of English rugby in the 70's  ???

John, yes it is a good ad, except for the racial slurs  ;D

[edit]Fix typos[/edit]
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 11:56:28 AM by Tom »
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #60 on: June 29, 2006, 12:43:49 PM »
 :) Tom. I have a Griffin tattoed on my rgiht arm. When I joined the army or went to work down the Pit. They all called me Taff until I spoke.  ;D Then they started calling me Chalky.  ;D
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #61 on: June 29, 2006, 01:26:43 PM »
They all called me Taff until I spoke.

LOL John. Folks who had only dealt with me online get a shock when they meet me in person. One of our long time members who I met in person for the first time at the last Quartzsite rally told me "your brogue sure doesn't come through online"  ;D

When we moved to California in 1980 our (then 10 year old) daughter came home from school saying the teacher would pick a different student to read something to the class each day. But, when our daughter read, the entire class was silent, so the teacher picked her to read every day. She lost her Welsh accent in a hurry and most folks don't believe she's our daughter.
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Re: World Cup Football (Soccer)
« Reply #62 on: July 01, 2006, 11:21:30 PM »
Too bad, England was beaten by Portugal in extra time. Hopefully the German police were out in force to prevent any violence or unruly behaviour by the disappointed fans.

Wonderful play by Portuguese goalkeeper Ricardo who saved three penalties.
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