World Cup Football (Soccer)

Paul's first line of his lead message read:

I think I may upset you with this, but here goes

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It didn't necessarily upset anyone, but it stirred emotions a little. Helps break the boredom around here  ;D

Thanks for adding that last bit Tom - my original post wasnt intended to start a fire, just pass an observation.

This next bit isnt intended to stoke it up either :-

US Immigration :-

I TOTALLY agree with you that the ideal way to contribute to a Country is thru legal channels.

However, the US offers a VERY limited choice in applying for a work permit and/or residency - and why shouldnt they, its their Country.

But, think of all the Mexicans who have been doing the crap jobs in your Country (we have them too), because no US citizen will do the jobs.

How would you cope if they werent here?

You have allowed this situation for many, many years and only after 9/11 have you recognised a potential problem with ignoring they are here.

OK, let them apply to become US Citizens - what are the choices :-

1. Green Card Lottery - more chance of winning the Lotto and not needing to come to the US.
2. Skilled Workforce Program - I dont think cleaners are classed in the same vein as Doctors, so no chance there.
3. Entertainers, etc - no, I dont think so.
4. Financial Invester - minimum $0.5M to invest in a deprived area of the US.

Actually, I just found a link with a little more than the above - http://www.visalaw.com/03may4/2may403.html

You will soon see that there are very few legal avenues open to the tyoe of worker you actually NEED in your Country.

The scheme suggested by President Bush is potentially an excellent way of introducing a new workforce into the US - but to tell them they can work the crap jobs for x years and then be sent home is a bit much - no wonder they are all protesting, and what do you expect will happen when they vanish after the x years - you cant find the illegal ones you already have.

The UK suffers from a very similar shortage of workers - except we are 'importing' Bus Drivers, Electricians, Plumbers even Doctors and Nurses to fill our job vacancies - I worked in one of our Unemployment Offices for 6 months and was amazed at the numbers being invited from Eastern Europe.

Of course, we have 1/2 million lazy so and so's getting paid by the state for sitting on their backsides - now that opens a whole new debate.

Paul

UK-RV said:

However, the US offers a VERY limited choice in applying for a work permit and/or residency..

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There are more legal ways for people to work in this country than you could imagine and many employers exploit these rules to legally employ people here. There's no reason for anyone to be here illegally.

...think of all the Mexicans who have been doing the crap jobs in your Country...

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Think of all the Welsh coal miners who worked for a pitance at English-owned coal mines and spent all their money at English-owned company stores. I came from a coal mining family - my father, uncles and grandfathers all worked in the mines. My Dad started work in the mines at 12 years of age and ultimately suffered pneumoconiosis (aka black lung disease), all to line the coffers of the English coal mine owners. Do you really want to talk about "crap jobs in your country"?

To add insult to injury, Welsh kids who attended English-run schools were beaten for speaking their native Welsh tongue while attending schools in Wales because the English-speaking teachers were too lazy or incapable of learning the Welsh language. If you haven't seen the movie "How green was my valley", it might be educational.

Of course, we have 1/2 million lazy so and so's getting paid by the state for sitting on their backsides

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I'm ashamed to say that I have friends and relatives among that 1/2 million.

Your post did indeed prompt discussion.  I doubt if it really upset anybody.


As for the illegal residents here.  There are several avenues for workers to enter this country legally and it is done all the time.  However, if anybody chooses to enter illegally then why should they be allowed to stay.  That is only rewarding them for their crime and letting them keep the proceed of their crime.  But anybody employing illegals should also be held accountable with heavy fines and contributions to the social security system to help replace that which has been lost do to the illegal workers they hired.  The illegal workers are not only holding as you called crap jobs but constructions jobs and others.  It is a problem but rewarding criminals for their crime is not a way to fix the problem.

But anybody employing illegals should also be held accountable with heavy fines and contributions to the social security system

Ron - now THAT is the only way you are going to deal with the people you already have here - if employers are too scared to hire them, the majority will go home.

Of course, that does then leave you with nobody doing the work.  ;D

Paul

UK-RV said:

Of course, that does then leave you with nobody doing the work.

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Not so Paul. Among the millions of legal foreign workers are Hispanic folks who work in the fields and make their contribution to American society.

Personally, I believe the real threat is from folks who come here legally to be educated and gain work experience, then go home to their native land to set up competing companies. China, for example, is our largest potential competitior, followed by India. I personally know quite a few folks, both Chinese and Indian, who followed the route I'm describing and returned to their homeland. I've said for a long time that we'd all better learn Mandarin.

We also have too many freeloaders that are healthy but lazy drawing paychecks for doing nothing.  Stop those free paychecks and make them go to work.

Yes Paul we have illegal's working in the UK doing jobs that our lazy B*("&&(* don't want to do. The employers have been charged for these offences at times (when caught).

Yes Tom. I come from the same background. ALL the coalmines were owned by the English landed gentry. We had a lot of Welsh working down our local Coal mine too along side my father and myself.

Enoch Powell should have been Prime Minister. Perhaps even the President of Britain.

We have the same in the UK Ron. We should make them do the jobs the illegals are currently doing instead of giving them money and housing for nothing. IMH&VHO.
;D

Thanks for the observations John. I have to agree that Enoch Powell should have been PM.

BTW were English kids beaten for speaking their native tongue at English schools ?  ;D

Tom said:

BTW were English kids beaten for speaking their native tongue at English schools ?? ;D

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We were all beaten Tom. None of us could speak the Queen's english. I'm a Yorkshireman.  ;D ;D

LOL John.

Ron Ruward makes a good point.  Paul, please do not judge individual Americans based on what the media does.

Paul, you made an excellent point in your initial post, and I defended your original view, but I believe you are going way to far down the road with this.  You said:

?But, think of all the Mexicans who have been doing the crap jobs in your Country (we have them too), because no US citizen will do the jobs.

How would you cope if they weren?t here??

Gee.  That simply is not true.  What are your circumstances?  Do you live in the United States?  If so, where?  I spend my winters near the Mexican border.  I have hired Mexicans, not to do crap jobs, but to do craftsman jobs because they are good at it.  I admire working Mexicans.  Unlike some other segments of the U.S. population, they have a very high work ethic and are trustoworthy.  And they exude a great happiness and joy towards life.

I think we would cope just fine without Mexicans.  Plenty of non Mexicans to do the crap jobs, whatever they are (I don?t know).  I have cleaned bathrooms in my time, and that is the closest thing I can think of to what you vaguely refer to as crap jobs.

Paul?. I can?t understand where you are headed with this, other than to criticize Americans for some things they do wrong and lots of things they don?t do wrong.  Sounds to me like you are ?out to get? Americans.  Not a very neighborly attitude.  Likely I misread your intentions.

But that is a popular attitude overseas I admit.  I sometimes wonder if some kind of envy is behind it.  If so, there is little to be envious about, IMO.  America has made some tough choices and paid some heavy sacrifices for them.

Just for clarification, do you feel anyone who wants to can just enter the United States and take advantage of any benefits offered to citizens?  When you say if we don?t allow them, ?Of course, that does then leave you with nobody doing the work.? It tells me you do not really know what goes on here.  There are plenty of people to do the work.

Why don?t we just leave it at the fact that the American media showed lack of thought in not allowing both anthems to be broadcast?

Before I respond, Ive just seen the following video on TV - hilarious - http://www.golakes.co.uk/worldcupsheep/


Smoky (and anyone else) - apologies if that is the impression I gave off - certainly not intended.

My comments are only made based on looking at Immigration requirements for Ann-Marie and myself, as we were actually looking at the potential in moving here and buying a business.

We soon found it near impossible to do.

So, if it is that difficult for us (We dont want to be forced to spend a $0.5M investment in a 'high unemployment area' - been there and done that) it must surely be near impossible for those without the cash.

My comments on the 'crap jobs' were taken (perhaps too literally) from Pres Bush's statement of 'the jobs no American will do' - I wouldn't have thought you have too many people turning down the really good jobs (whatever they are).

I mentioned earlier that I worked in an (un)employment office in the UK and saw, first hand, the number and type of jobs that nobody would do. These jobs remained empty for months and months or had a really high staff turnover rate. We owned a couple of retail stores and filling basic cashier vacancies was a nightmare.

Our Country is encouraging people from overseas to comes and work in the UK - the people from Poland I met whilst at the employment office appeared so grateful for the opportunity offered to them.

Im certainly not anti-American (I dont think Im anti-anyone) - I really have met some wonderful Americans.

But, I am definately anti-American on a LOT of your Countries attitudes and policies - hell, Im pretty anti on a lot of ours too? ;D

So, apologies if you feel my comments were anti-you, that wasn't intended.

It is just casual debate over issues (once again) we can do very little to change.

Paul

UK-RV said:

.....we were actually looking at the potential in moving here and buying a business. We soon found it near impossible to do.

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Paul,

Find yourself a good immigration lawyer who knows the ropes and doesn't give up after reading some web site. But be prepared to go through a process, or series of processes and to be patient.

....it must surely be near impossible for those without the cash.

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We came here (legally) 25 years ago with little money and whatever we could fit in a few suitcases. Millions more did it, some with less than the little cash we had.

.... were taken (perhaps too literally) from Pres Bush's statement of 'the jobs no American will do'

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Yes, probably too literally. There are people here who can and would do those jobs, but not for the pittance being paid.

..... saw, first hand, the number and type of jobs that nobody would do.

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You forgot to mention that folks could make more money by living off the state. Remember, I have friends and relatives in that 1/2 million.

BTW Paul, congrats on the win yesterday. I turned the tube on at half time and watched some of the 2nd half as well as some replays from the first half. Little old Trinidad and Tobago were doing a great job of defending and were really close with that first half near-goal. It looked like England was going to have to settle for a scoreless draw, but making the substitution late in the game saved the day for them.

Thanks Tom

Unfortunately, if the team continue as they've played the first two games they will soon be heading home.

But I guess it could be argued that a win is a win however badly you scrape thru with it.

If we do lose the next round, it would certainly save me the hassle of tracking down CGs with suitable TV stations? ;D

Paul

BTW Ive just watched the great display by Argentina, but haven't had chance to see if we are due to meet them further in the competition - we are STUFFED if we do play them.

Paul, thanks very much for your explanation.? It explained a lot of things for me.

I can see that the tougher immigration process has affected you in a personal way, something I did not understand when first reading your messages.? Indeed immigration was a lot easier decades ago.? In fact, if you go back to when our nation began the process of changing from native Americans to immigrants, we gladly welcomed immigrants.? There were some negatives, of course, such as indentureship, but on the whole America, in its early days, was a grand melting pot of many nations.? That is one of the things that made us strong, and we are proud of our heritage.?

However that was then and this is now.? Because America is such an attractive place to live (for some people) it continues to draw more than its fair share of potential immigrants.? Also, more than its fair share of abusive intruders who attempt to siphon off the riches without paying their share of the cost.? I think you know this is true, and I think that is not a description of your own efforts.? I take it you would like to be a full citizen and share in both the benefits and responsibilities of citizenship.? Those who think this is a land of milk and honey to be had for the grabbing, are the ones who likely will be disappointed as our policies tighten.

But you have been caught in the switch.? Like any change in a major direction, it starts out rough and takes time to work itself into an acceptable and fair plan.? If becoming a citizen of the United States were simple and easy, then everyone would do it and the country would suffer greatly.? But if one is serious about citizenship, then the amount of effort required would certainly lead to a worthy reward and something to be quite proud of.? I know if I decided I preferred living in another land, I would work very hard to accomplish my goal.

What specifically are the main difficulties preventing you from becoming a citizen here?? Maybe if we understood more why you are having doors closed on your attempts to move here we could better understand where you are coming from.

Paul,

We had a question while watching the second half of the T&T game - any idea how much David Beckham (sp?) earns? I assume he has to be the top paid player in the UK. Won't be long now before he's getting a bit past it for playing soccer though.

A side note ....

You may not recall the heyday of George Best, by far one of the best players the UK ever produced. So much talent. But he discovered women and booze and, after repeatedly faling to turn up for practice, was kicked off one team after another. He eventually came to California in the late 70's and played for the San Jose Earthquakes. Even as a washed up old player, he still had more talent than local folks had seen. IIRC he passed away a year or so ago.

But you have been caught in the switch.? Like any change in a major direction, it starts out rough and takes time to work itself into an acceptable and fair plan.? If becoming a citizen of the United States were simple and easy, then everyone would do it and the country would suffer greatly.? But if one is serious about citizenship, then the amount of effort required would certainly lead to a worthy reward and something to be quite proud of.? I know if I decided I preferred living in another land, I would work very hard to accomplish my goal.

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Actually once upon a time it was, Smoky.? Back in the 1800s and early 1900s.? ?Buy a ticket, get on a boat, land in some American port and you got a start.? ? Come election time, a precinct worker for the local political would show up at your door and encourge you to vote and for the machine's candidates.? After a while, enough elections rolled by and you were a citizen.? ?One of the machine's judges would swear you in.? ?Anyway that is how my Svensker ancestors crept in under the wire.? ?

My Welsh ancestors qualified by shooting enough redcoats to make a country to be citizens of -- Battle of Saratoga.?

One way is even easier.? ?If your momma gives birth to you in the territory of the USA, including the decks of its warships, and she is subject to the jurisdiction of the USA (ie not a diplomat), then the moment you stick your head out, you are a US citizen.? ?Entitled to a passport and to vote at your 18th birthday.? Shoot, you can even run for Prez.? ?Ain't America grand??? ?;D

Tom - I THINK Germanys Michael Ballack is the highest paid player in the UK at the moment - playing for Chelsea.


Following Englands poor performance, this joke is doing the rounds :-


It is just before the England v Brazil match. Ronaldinho goes into the Brazilian changing room to find all his teammates looking a bit glum.

"What's up?" he asks.

"Well, we're having trouble getting motivated for this game. We know it's important but it's only England. They're sh*te and we can't be bothered."

Ronaldinho looks at them and says, "Well, I reckon I can beat them by myself. You lads go down the pub."

So Ronaldinho goes out to play England by himself and the rest of the Brazilian team go off for a few jars.

After a few pints they wonder how the game is going, so they get the landlord to put the teletext on. A big cheer goes up as the screen reads " Brazil 1 - England 0 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes)". He is beating England all by himself!

Anyway, a few pints later and the game is forgotten until someone remembers, "It must be full time now, let's see how he got on." They put the teletext on.

"Result from the Stadium 'Brazil 1 (Ronaldinho 10 minutes) - England 1 (Lampard 89 minutes)."

They can't believe it; he has single-handedly got a draw against England!! They rush back to the Stadium to congratulate Ronaldinho. They find him in the dressing room, still in his gear, sitting with his head in his hands.

He refuses to look at them. "I've let you down, I've let you down."

"Don't be daft, you got a draw against England, all by yourself. And they only scored at the very, very end!"

"No, no, I have, I've let you down. I got sent off after 12 minutes."

;D ;D
Paul