Possible Newbie - is a TT going to work for us?

If you change to diesel power tow vehicle the the limitation doesn't apply for the 10% reduction. Not to mention diesel powered vehicle do much better MPG vs gasoline versions. I'm towing a 31' Jayco Travel Trailer total weight between truck and trailer is 16,000# roughly and still getting 12-14 MPG so far.

As for power on my rig I can manage to go 2-3 days on a battery charge if you do things smart. But once you get into using the furnace then battery life goes downhill fast. I typically carry a no name 2Kw genny for charging the batteries up so I can fire my genny charge the batteries before bed and not worry about it one bit.

As for A/C usage normally we don't need the A/C where we are in the forest but now getting down in the desert it seem confining being stuck in a RV during the day so you don't roast. So we typically plan desert trip early spring or late fall. But stay in the forest during mid-summer where its cooler.

For anyone that might read this, here's another good link to understand the tow ratings and weights debate:

http://www.rvforum.net/SMF_forum/index.php?topic=7117.0

Fireball

Like most of the threads on this forum, the advice there is overly conservative compared to most other sources.

Most such discussions mix up three things:
1) Safety.
2) Wear on powertrain components that may lead to early failure.
3) Regulatory weight limits.

For safety, you have to comply with the GAWR on your tow vehicle.  For any but the smallest trailers you have to have a WD hitch.  You have to have brakes that work properly.  You have to have sway control, in almost all cases.  You have to be sure that you comply with the GAWR rating on the trailer axles, and also be sure that the individual trailer tires aren't overloaded.

For safety, don't exceed the weight rating on the receiver or any of the hitch components.

In some jurisdictions these safety-related ratings are enforced by law.

The GCWR and towing capacity provided by the vehicle manufacturer are advisory ratings.  Exceeding them may lead to premature powertrain wear.  Some posters like to derate these capacities by 10%, 15%, 20%, depending on where you are and what kind of engine you have but that's all Kentucky windage around how long the transmission (etc.) will last.  Which, if you're going to travel several thousand miles a year or more, may be something you care deeply about.  The vehicle manufacturers don't determine these ratings based on safety, and for RVs they have no legal or regulatory significance of any kind in any state in the U.S.

You have to know the actual loaded weight of the trailer to have any idea what's going on.  The GVWR on my trailer (10,000) is around 1600 pounds more than the maximum load I've ever been able to put in it even with full tanks.  There isn't room for enough cans of baked beans to get it over the max, and it has the optional 2nd air conditioner and some other extras.  So while most trailer manufacturers push the limit, and in many cases ship trailers that are overloaded when empty, not all of them do.

If you're serious about buying a TT but right on the edge for weight then get the dealer to take it over the scales somewhere for you.

There are crashed rigs out there.  We've all seen them or at least pictures and video.  But it isn't about the weight and it is rare indeed that the weight in and of itself led to the crash.  Major causes of loss-of-control crashes:
1) Structural failure of hitch components due to defects or overloading
2) No brakes on trailer.  I can't believe how many RVers see brake controllers as optional.
3) No weight distribution or WD bars not properly in place
4) Use of air-ride suspensions on the tow vehicles that adjust ride height.
5) No sway control of any kind or sway bar not tightened.
6) Operation in dangerous winds
7) Catastrophic tire failure
8) Loss of traction at high speed on ice, snow, or water deep enough to cause hydroplaning

We'd be better served for safety by exhorting all the veteran RVers to pull their hubs every year for a thorough brake inspection and scale the rig every year to make sure the WD is dialed right with even half the determination, energy, and indignation that we expend telling n00bs to buy a bigger truck.

Not to point fingers but...

It all so common that you see a newbie that has economy vehicle and wants to buy a RV to pull behind it. But there wants for RV size out does the abilities of the tow vehicle more times out of ten. Simply to put it if you want more living space in your RV your going to need a larger tow vehicle for the larger RV. Period! Then the other thing that happens all to often is the fact some does buy a RV that marginal fits their tow vehicle and then is un-happy about the towing grade performance and MPG. I will continue to highly suggest all you guy pulling 30 foot and larger RV's to consider diesel power plants. Diesel power plants are design for heavy loads and have a extremely long lifespan (500K miles or more!).

Another thing about longevity. Tires and engines. Just because your tires on your RV are rated for 65 MPH doesn't mean they will not blow out at 65 MPH. Kind of like say I can rev my Cummis to 3,200 RPM because its right at redline. Both can and will fail if used at there extreme limits. This why most of use will keep pushing larger tow vehicles and giving yourself more margin for weight. Be smart find a tow vehicle that will pull the trailer without struggling.

Like most of the threads on this forum, the advice there is overly conservative compared to most other sources.

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I know my advice is conservative because I think safety and reliability are important enough to err on the safe side. But I've been in an accident with a tow vehicle that really wasn't as capable as it needed to be, so learned the hard way.

Furthermore, I do not believe the [conservative] advice usually given here is out of line with "most other sources".  Could you cite some of those?  All we are saying is to keep the total weight under the manufacturer's rating. How can that be "overly conservative"?

Gary RV Roamer said:

I know my advice is conservative because I think safety and reliability are important enough to err on the safe side. But I've been in an accident with a tow vehicle that really wasn't as capable as it needed to be, so learned the hard way.

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You were in an accident with a tow vehicle that had autoleveling air suspension, which is now known to be a major contributor to crashes while towing.  You took the wrong lesson from that and blamed size and weight.

Furthermore, I do not believe the [conservative] advice usually given here is out of line with "most other sources".  Could you cite some of those?

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Well, airforums.com for one.  The good folks at Can-Am RV, in London, Ontario for another, who have an enviable safety record despite routinely setting up combinations that exceed manufacturer's towing weight by a factor of two.

http://www.canamrv.ca/towing/

All we are saying is to keep the total weight under the manufacturer's rating. How can that be "overly conservative"?

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First of all, that's not what the overall advice is here.  The advice being dispensed is to derate towing capacity by 10-20% and to use trailer GVWR as a proxy for actual weight.

Second of all, I believe that manufacturers stated towing capacity is not based on safety but is a marketing number used to drive sales of more expensive power trains.

Mopar1973Man said:

Not to point fingers but...

It all so common that you see a newbie that has economy vehicle and wants to buy a RV to pull behind it. But there wants for RV size out does the abilities of the tow vehicle more times out of ten. Simply to put it if you want more living space in your RV your going to need a larger tow vehicle for the larger RV. Period! Then the other thing that happens all to often is the fact some does buy a RV that marginal fits their tow vehicle and then is un-happy about the towing grade performance and MPG. I will continue to highly suggest all you guy pulling 30 foot and larger RV's to consider diesel power plants. Diesel power plants are design for heavy loads and have a extremely long lifespan (500K miles or more!).

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I pull my 30' RV all over the place with my gasoline powered Chevy Suburban and am enjoying lower total cost of ownership, better fuel availability, more predictable engine maintenance, and more power than most diesels.  You couldn't pay me enough to switch to a diesel.

Another thing about longevity. Tires and engines. Just because your tires on your RV are rated for 65 MPH doesn't mean they will not blow out at 65 MPH. Kind of like say I can rev my Cummis to 3,200 RPM because its right at redline. Both can and will fail if used at there extreme limits. This why most of use will keep pushing larger tow vehicles and giving yourself more margin for weight. Be smart find a tow vehicle that will pull the trailer without struggling.

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One of the myriad problems with these discussions is that posters like you are confusing the question of "What RV can I start out with given this tow vehicle" with the question "I have this RV and it's time to buy a tow vehicle.  Which one should I get?"  They are different, and to provide an answer that is actually helpful you have to put yourself in the shoes of the person asking the question. 

Jammer said:

First of all, that's not what the overall advice is here.  The advice being dispensed is to derate towing capacity by 10-20% and to use trailer GVWR as a proxy for actual weight.

Second of all, I believe that manufacturers stated towing capacity is not based on safety but is a marketing number used to drive sales of more expensive power trains.

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Very true on first point above.  After spending some time this week looking at different trailers on various lots, I can't see any reason not to use actual weight of trailer plus weight of planned contents.  Trailer GVWR varies pretty widely.  For example, two different Jay Feather's I looked at have unloaded weight of 4025 and 4190.  The one that weighs 4025 has a GVWR of 4,995 and the one that weighs 4190 has a GVWR of 6500!!!    I'll be looking at the actual weight of the travel and adding 1000-1200# as a max load to determine what I can pull.      Yes, the GVWR of the 2nd one is over my Sequoia's limit, but the actual weight of the trailer with all my contents seems to be the important number.   

Someone correct me if I'm missing something!

Also will note that erring on the side of safety is probably best, but that since so many factors come into play it would be nice to have a more thorough and informative "white paper" on the issue, so that you fine folks don't have to keep repeating yourselves          Each specific situation will have a pretty big bearing on determining what the "proper" maximum towed weight should be (engine size, type of engine, planned travel distances, terrain, elevation, etc).    My family of 4 weighs 475#, and that includes a 70# siberian husky!    I'm sure that figure alone can vary by a few hundred pounds from family to family.

From a newbie's perspective, I appreciate all the information and different opinions, but it doesn't seem like it should've been so hard to arrive at a conclusion   

Oh, and by the way, I'm giving up the idea of an RV and starting a billiards team instead 

... since so many factors come into play it would be nice to have a more thorough and informative "white paper" on the issue ...

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Thanks. We'll certainly take that under advisement, and we'll review our published articles on the subject. However, most of us on the forum staff are somewhat conservative for good, albeit different, reasons. There are always going to be naysayers who believe that newcomers to towing should ignore the advice and spin the wheel. All we can say to folks ignoring the (conservative) advice is good luck and caveat emptor.

... I'm giving up the idea of an RV and starting a billiards team instead..

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Make that a snooker team and I'll join you 

Jammer said:

I pull my 30' RV all over the place with my gasoline powered Chevy Suburban and am enjoying lower total cost of ownership, better fuel availability, more predictable engine maintenance, and more power than most diesels.  You couldn't pay me enough to switch to a diesel.

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So?  Look at my signature line and you will find a Ford Bronco -- there are/were no diesel Broncos .  My experience is with gassers, I have never owned a diesel. 

Fuel availability?  Maybe a few decades ago, but in recent years almost every filling station seems to have a green pump dispensing diesel -- even in urban areas. 

Power?  I suspect engine size has something to do with that.  There are marine diesels that are the size of a small house.  Mercedes stuffs a 4 cylinder 3.0L diesel into a sedan and has done so for almost a century.  For towing, torque curve characteristics are important also.  Diesel curves tend to favor load pulling as witness the complete dominance of diesel engines in long haul trucking.

My admiration of the diesel is its performance at high altitudes.  I live in the US Southwest.  I have towed in every western state except Alaska and oddly enough, Wyoming.  Western towing is fundamentally different than Eastern.  The average elevation of the west is around 3500 feet above sea level.  The huge Colorado Plateau stands some 7000 feet above sea level.  The elevation of Flagstaff, AZ is 6,910 ft.  -- which is a bit higher than the summit of Mt. Michell in N. Carolina at 6,684 ft, the highest mountain east of the Mississippi.  Flagstaff sits on a plain, not on a mountain top. 

Normally aspirated engines (those not turbo- or super-charged) lose 3% of their rated HP for every 1000 feet of altitude.  All diesels manufactured in the past few decades have been turbocharged.  Gasoline engines, until the Ford EcoBoost introduced in 2009, are normally aspirated.  Thus a gas engine running along the main street of Flagstaff is operating with only 79% of its rated HP.  Trust me on this:  on that main street this is not a big deal.  Schlepping a trailer over the passes in Utah, California, Idaho, Montana, Colorado or Arizona you feel it -- especially with a head wind.  My Bronc has put in a lot of miles in 2nd and 1st gear dragging the trailer over things like Syskiou, Donner, and Lookout passes and those are just the Interstate passes.  This is the reason that I strongly recommend that vehicles with unblown gasoline engines be downrated by 20% for operation out here in the West.

Diesels have a real point out here in the West.  Now so do the Ford EcoBoost gassers.

One of the myriad problems with these discussions is that posters like you are confusing the question of "What RV can I start out with given this tow vehicle" with the question "I have this RV and it's time to buy a tow vehicle.  Which one should I get?"  They are different, and to provide an answer that is actually helpful you have to put yourself in the shoes of the person asking the question. 

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Huh?!  I thought we were doing exactly that.  A novice comes in with a truck looking for a trailer, we try to give him a trailer weight which the GVWR of the trailer should not exceed.  If the novice has a trailer looking for the truck to tow it, we give him a tow rating which his truck should equal or exceed.    If they comes in looking for both truck and trailer, we generally tell them to find a trailer floor plan that makes them happy and then buy a tow vehicle with a tow rating that will pull its.  We try to give them a simple, conservative number to work with as they sort out the problems of floorplan, price, and their particular uses.

Second of all, I believe that manufacturers stated towing capacity is not based on safety but is a marketing number used to drive sales of more expensive power trains.

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Unfortunately, conspiracy theories make for poor operational considerations.  Are we to believe that They are boosting numbers to move total units, or are They reducing numbers to move people to more expensive units...hmm?  Myself, I evaluate conspiracies on the Rat Theory:  Sooner or later someone will rat out the conspiracy and Drudge or Huffington post will scream it to the rafters.  Until then I assume that the information being published is as accurate as the folks coming up with the numbers can make it.  Adding a might of safety factor helps in this.

Thus I am conservative in my recommendations here.  I also lay out my reasoning so folks can follow it and decide for themselves as to whether I am being reasonable or just blowing smoke.  Hell, I am just another schmo on the internet, take me for whatever my reasoning is worth.  If you have a different way to go, so be it

Carl covered every point quite eloquently. 

As we both stated, part of our conservatism regarding tow ratings is that we tow in the Mountain West.  Get up around 9500' up, and you'll want a vehicle was some reserve left....unless you want a white knuckle thrill ride on the way down.  No thanks.

At the end of the day, it's up to the OP to decide what is acceptable.  All we can do is offer input based on our collective experiences.  Like everything in life, RVing is a series of tradeoffs and compromises.  In hotrodding, we have a saying...."cheap, fast, reliable....pick two".  Perhaps it could be modified for the travel trailer & tow vehicle realm....."economical, safe, big.....pick two."

Diesels have a real point out here in the West.

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I quote myself to expand on this point.

In the totally insane runup of fuel prices out here in So. California, diesel fuel is currently being advertised by the local stations at $1.10/gallon cheaper than regular gasoline.

Diesel vs. Gas.  :

Since I own both types of vehicles I can give a good idea of that.

2002 Dodge Ram 2500, 21-22 MPG, $4.559
35 Gallon x  22 MPG = 770 Miles Per Tank
$4.559 / 22 MPG = $0.20 Dollars per Mile
35 Gallon x 14 MPG = 490 Miles per Tank Towing
$4.559 / 14 MPG = $0.32 Dollars Per Mile Towing

1996 Dodge Ram 1500 14-15 MPG, $4.229
35 Gallon x 15 MPG = 525 Miles Per Tank
$4.229 / 15 MPG = $0.28 Dollar per Mile
35 Gallons x 6 MPG = 210 Miles Per Tank Towing
$4.229 / 6 MPG = $0.70 Dollars Per Mile Towing

As you can see diesel power plants are much cheaper than any gasoline power plant. Regardless of the price of diesel being higher my diesel truck is cheaper to drive daily.

The problem with today's diesels are legion and have nothing to do with fuel costs.

1) The routine maintenance costs are higher.

2) They are prone to needing expensive repairs at some point in their life at unpredictable times.  The specific weak points vary from one engine to the next, but they all have them.

3) When buying new, the purchase price is dramatically higher.  Resale doesn't necessarily recoup this.  Looking at early 2000s 3/4 ton Chevy pickup trucks, where I live, used truck prices are about the same for gas and diesel.

I tried to convince myself that a diesel Excursion was the answer but just couldn't make it pencil out no matter how hard I worked the numbers.  I am now very happy with my Suburban with its big block gasser.

Jammer said:

The problem with today's diesels are legion and have nothing to do with fuel costs.

1) The routine maintenance costs are higher.

2) They are prone to needing expensive repairs at some point in their life at unpredictable times.  The specific weak points vary from one engine to the next, but they all have them.

3) When buying new, the purchase price is dramatically higher.  Resale doesn't necessarily recoup this.  Looking at early 2000s 3/4 ton Chevy pickup trucks, where I live, used truck prices are about the same for gas and diesel.

I tried to convince myself that a diesel Excursion was the answer but just couldn't make it pencil out no matter how hard I worked the numbers.  I am now very happy with my Suburban with its big block gasser.

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1. It might be true but like most gassers are oil changes every 3K to 5K miles where a diesel is 7.5K to 12K depending on how your setup. I'm using a Frantz Filter to extend my oil changes. Yeah I know most diesel take more oil but with the extended intervals it works out about the same.

2. This is true. But in my case I studied up and learned about the weakness of my diesel and fixed them promptly so now those problems don't exist any longer. (Improved fuel system, better filters, fuel pressure gauge, etc.)

3. Also true because most people think a diesel engine is the same as a gasser in mileage. Just because a diesel has 200K or more doesn't mean its high miles by any means. This is a very common thing I see on diesel site where people want low mile trucks (<100K). Low miles to me is anything under 500K miles. I've got a few that are high mile trucks...

Now that's high miles...
http://i55.tinypic.com/20ggyva.jpg

http://i56.tinypic.com/o0pbw6.jpg

Getting back to the original question and without reviewing in detail his "USE" wishes, needs, available cash, etc .... would he not be better served with a good used 35' Class A ???